Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?
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  1. #21
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canyx View Post
    Thanks for your input on Farmina! Brae's poop has not been great lately (all other conditions, great). Formed but very soft, and the second poop of the day will be unformed. His stool was better on Victor, I admit. But I am currently doing 50/50 Go! and Farmina Pumpkin. I have a Farmina Prime waiting in the wings and I will also order an Ancient Grains one. I think Brae's stool does not form well with pea so I want to try other fillers. But as it stands, he is FINE so I am still pushing through and finishing bags of what I have.
    I tried Farmina (I really wanted to like it) but it gave my dogs soft stools. Nothing terrible, but definitely not right either. I even tried adding probiotics daily & it made no difference. So, no more Farmina for my crew.
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  3. #22
    Senior Member Canyx's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Thanks for your insight BKay! Yeah, I'm at the point where I'm unsure if it's Go! or Farmina. I suppose I can stagger the amounts and see if it makes a difference. But Brae was (sometimes) like this on Orijen too. That plus the possibility of them selling to Purina made me switch to Victor. Victor used millet. But Orijen uses pea too. And Go! has potatos and peas. So I think it could be pea.
    Last edited by Canyx; 07-21-2019 at 08:44 AM.
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  4. #23
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Yes, we have.

    We are long time Orijen customers. We have fed our 9-1/2 year old Australian Shepherd started on their puppy formulation and has eaten their adult, regional red and senior formulations. After reviewing the 13 Australian Shepherd DCM cases, we decided until the root cause is determined to avoid legume (peas, lentils, chickpeas etc.) and tuber (cassava, potato, sweet potato etc.) inclusive formulations. We have also noticed intermittent changes in our dog’s digestion since Orijen moved from their British Columbia plant to their US plant in 2016.

    We found some grain inclusive dry foods that look like good options to try from four different companies:

    1) Annamaet
    2) Dr. Gary’s Best Breed
    3) Dr. Tim’s
    4) Farmina

    We are piloting trying a number of these before settling on a rotation of 3-4 foods. We have initially transitioned from Orijen to Farmina N&D Ancestral Grains Chicken & Pomegranate. We transitioned slowly across 6 days. So far, so good. We will watch for general energy, coat health, signs of allergy, stool quality and his general eagerness to eat it.

    These are the 5 foods (below) that we will try over the next 3 months. They are all lower in protein than Orijen which was about 38% (24% - 30%). They are all produced by smaller companies with a background in veterinary nutrition, all report their ash content and have good ingredients. We will buy small 5 lb. bags at first which is 8-10 days of for our dog to try each out.

    Annamaet - Option Formula
    http://www.annamaet.com/products/Option_Formula
    24% Protein / 13% Fat / 04% Fiber / 10% Moisture / 7.5% Ash / 41.5% Carbohydrate - 414 kcal/cup

    Ingredients > 1%:
    Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Rolled Oats, Lamb Meal, Pearled Barley, Canola Oil, Menhaden Fish Meal, Menhaden Oil, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Apples, Natural Flavor, Dried Chicory Root, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Marine Microalgae, Salt.

    Dr. Gary’s Best Breed - Lamb Meal with Fruits and Vegetables
    https://www.bestbreed.com/product_de...ts-vegetables/
    26% Protein / 15% Fat / 04% Fiber / 10% Moisture / 6.9% Ash / 38.1% Carbohydrate - 468 kcal/cup

    Ingredients > 1%:
    Lamb Meal, White Fish Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Canola Oil, Egg Product, Carrots, Celery, Beets, Parsley, Lettuce, Water Crest, Spinach, Natural Flavor, Lecithin, Calcium Carbonate, Kelp Meal, New Zealand Green Mussel, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt.

    Dr. Tim’s - Kinesis
    https://drtims.com/collections/food/products/kinesis
    26% Protein / 16% Fat / 03% Fiber / 10% Moisture / 07% Ash / 38% Carbohydrate - 413 kcal/cup

    Ingredients > 1%
    Chicken meal, brown rice, pearled barley, whole oat groats, chicken fat, dried plain beet pulp, dried egg product, rice bran, ocean herring meal, catfish meal, ground whole flaxseed meal, chicken liver meal, dried porcine plasma, salmon meal, menhaden fish oil, dried carrots, dried celery, dried beets, dried parsley, dried lettuce, dried watercress, dried spinach, salt.

    Farmina - N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Mini
    https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food/...um-&-maxi.html
    30% Protein / 18% Fat / 2.9% Fiber / 9.0% Moisture / 8.2% Ash / 33% Carbohydrate - 400 kcal/cup

    Ingredients > 1%
    boneless chicken, dehydrated chicken, whole spelt, whole oats, chicken fat, dried whole eggs, herring, dehydrated herring, dried beet pulp, herring oil, dried carrot, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin, fructooligosaccharide, yeast extract, dried pomegranate, dried apple, dried spinach, psyllium seed husk, dried sweet orange, dried blueberry, salt.

    Farmina - N&D Ancestral Grain Lamb & Blueberry Mini
    https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food/...dult-mini.html
    28% Protein / 18% Fat / 2.9% Fiber / 9.0% Moisture / 8.2% Ash / 35% Carbohydrate - 395 kcal/cup

    Ingredients > 1%:
    lamb, dehydrated lamb, whole spelt, whole oats, dried whole eggs, herring, dehydrated herring, chicken fat, herring oil, dried beet pulp, dried carrot, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin, fructooligosaccharide, yeast extract, dried blueberry, dried apple, dried pomegranate, dried sweet orange, dried spinach, psyllium seed husk, salt.
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  6. #24
    Senior Member NadiaK's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    iim7v7im7 thank you so much for posting those links. I was not familiar with Dr Gary's. Looks like a great choice. Someone pointed out on another forum that alfalfa that is in Farmina is a legume. I was not aware of that. It is quite far down the ingredient list however.
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  7. #25
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Thanks much for pointing that out! It is ingredient #12 by weight pre-cooking. After it is cooked, I suspect its proportion is higher. They likely use it as a less expensive bulking agent that boost the protein content a bit. I will consider this moving forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by NadiaK View Post
    iim7v7im7 thank you so much for posting those links. I was not familiar with Dr Gary's. Looks like a great choice. Someone pointed out on another forum that alfalfa that is in Farmina is a legume. I was not aware of that. It is quite far down the ingredient list however.
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  8. #26
    Senior Member gingerkid's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Nope, haven't changed what I'm feeding. I'm not a vet, but I am an epidemiologist which puts me in a unique position to evaluate the research - including assess the methods for potential biases (and there are a lot of them) - myself. Putting aside the fact that there have been ~700 reported cases in 18 months out of 9 million dogs, there's still way too many confounding factors that have not been taken into account for me to put work into changing my dog's food, especially since one of them gets nothing but diarrhea on foods with oats, which is common in grain-inclusive foods.

    My dogs are also all low-risk for taurine-deficiency, diet aside. They're not breeds in which DCM is common and that haven't been implicated in the breed-related taurine-deficiency trend that is arising, they are small body size, and get fresh foods in addition to kibble. If I had giant dogs, or goldens or cockers, I'd consider switching more heavily, but as it stands, I'll take the estimated low risk of DCM over the very high and immediate risk of dealing with diarrhea every day.
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  9. #27
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canyx View Post
    Thanks for your insight BKay! Yeah, I'm at the point where I'm unsure if it's Go! or Farmina. I suppose I can stagger the amounts and see if it makes a difference. But Brae was (sometimes) like this on Orijen too. That plus the possibility of them selling to Purina made me switch to Victor. Victor used millet. But Orijen uses pea too. And Go! has potatos and peas. So I think it could be pea.
    Even though Nestle keeps approaching Champion with offers, Champion outright states that they have no intention of selling (to anyone). https://www.championpetfoods.com/faq...HByd-DOMoL-8AE
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  10. #28
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    I'm giving Purina Pro Plan a go for the pup. Considering he eats his own weight in kibble daily, I certainly don't mind the excuse to switch to a more affordable food, lol.
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  11. #29
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerkid View Post
    Even though Nestle keeps approaching Champion with offers, Champion outright states that they have no intention of selling (to anyone). https://www.championpetfoods.com/faq...HByd-DOMoL-8AE
    Yeah, I learned that a while ago. Brae had better stool on Victor than on Orijen so I just never went back.
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  12. #30
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    I personally have not changed. My food choice often changes as I am not very brand loyal, but I currently feed Fish4Dogs and have fed it a lot throughout my dog's lives. I am not too concerned about DCM because this brand is hugely popular in most countries here in Europe and they have been making this food for over a decade. So far, there has not been a single case of nutrition DCM on this food. I feel if this food were a problem, there would definitely be some known issues by now considering its popularity. I also do not think it's as simply as avoiding peas/legumes considering some dogs have popped up with DCM on grain inclusive foods...
    Last edited by Sanne; 07-23-2019 at 07:13 PM.



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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by parus View Post
    I'm giving Purina Pro Plan a go for the pup. Considering he eats his own weight in kibble daily, I certainly don't mind the excuse to switch to a more affordable food, lol.
    Lol, is it though? I found one formula I'm comfortable giving to my dogs (Bright Mind) because it has more meat (chicken and by-products in the first 3 ingredients, as opposed to just chicken). It's $52 for a 30lb bag!!! And not sold at my local store so I can't get reward points or buy it on sale.. Anyway, I bought one, and I'll switch to it when their current bags are gone (we just started). I'm absolutely not excited about this, however, because I feel like I'm giving them lesser quality food for basically the same price.

    But yes, I do worry about DCM... but I'm also wondering about other health issues frankly.
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  14. #32
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    For several reasons, I switched my two to Purina ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon and Rice back in March. So far, so good. A 16 pound bag is just over $36 on Chewy, and lasts roughly three weeks. At 55 pounds, Leo eats two cups a day, and at 35 pounds, Lily eats 1.5 cups a day.
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  15. #33
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    I have changed what I feed recently.
    My vet posted a like to FDA findings on DCM. They listed 16 brands that have been linked to DCM.
    I took all the 4 and 5 star rated grain free foods I found from Dog Food Advisor. From that list, I deleted the 16 brands from the FDA list, along with all brands not available from Chewy.com (I live on an island and have my food shipped)
    From there, I went thru the ingredient list and deleted anything with peas, lentils, potatoes/sweet potatoes, chickpeas, legumes, etc. as one of the first 5 or 6 ingredients.
    That left me with 5 to choose from.
    From those 5, I choose Kinetic Performance 26, because I know other people who feed that and have been happy with it.
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  16. #34
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoRose View Post
    For several reasons, I switched my two to Purina ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach Salmon and Rice back in March. So far, so good. A 16 pound bag is just over $36 on Chewy, and lasts roughly three weeks. At 55 pounds, Leo eats two cups a day, and at 35 pounds, Lily eats 1.5 cups a day.
    Have you thought about getting the 30lb bags? There is a large price drop from the 16 to the 30. ($2.29/lb to $1.52/lb)
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinsation View Post
    Have you thought about getting the 30lb bags? There is a large price drop from the 16 to the 30. ($2.29/lb to $1.52/lb)
    I personally always buy the biggest bags I can find because it's cheaper.
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  18. #36
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francl27 View Post
    I personally always buy the biggest bags I can find because it's cheaper.
    That's what I do as well. (but I also check prices to make sure that's the case)
    Feeding 4 large-ish dogs, I got thru a bag pretty quickly.
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    There's NO evidence diet caused DCM with these dogs, & under 600 dogs since Jan 2014 that's not many dogs especially when US has around 78 million dogs, you'd think the amount of dogs would be much higher.
    I've been feeding G/F & rotating Wellness Core, Wellness Simple, Canidae Pure Meadow, Pure Wild & a few other grain free kibbles over 4 yrs cause my boy has IBD & doesn't do well on grains, he does really well on potato kibbles & he's fine, he can't eat lentils causes diarrhea & chickpeas cause gas..
    Might have been a blessing in disguise.
    In Australia we have no cases of DCM neither does Europe.. I think this DCM has been blown up cause why is it just happening USA??
    Just don't fed the same brand of kibble month after month, rotate & change kibble brands & add fresh whole foods to dogs diet, tin sardines, tin salmon, fresh egg, veggies, fresh meats + organ meat, mussels
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  20. #38
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    You know, I was wondering about the situation in other countries too. It's very odd that it doesn't seem to be a problem there.

    I know a lot of people don't like this site, but there's an interesting bit here https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-gra...in-europe-why/

    The problem with DCM is that we really don't know exactly how people are feeding their dog too. If they get too many toppings or treats or whatnot, they often get less food, which means less important nutrients as well. And, as the article says, a lot of people feed less than what the package says (because they would get fat!), so dogs get less nutrients as a result. It would be very useful information if people whose dog had DCM mentioned how much food the dogs were eating and if they added anything to their food.

    Anyway, another good article I found that shows the risk of legumes

    https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2...diets-and-dcm/
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  21. #39
    Senior Member LeoRose's Avatar
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinsation View Post
    Have you thought about getting the 30lb bags? There is a large price drop from the 16 to the 30. ($2.29/lb to $1.52/lb)
    I'd then have to find a place to put said 30 pound bag. The convenience of the smaller bags is more important than the cost savings of the larger bags when you have limited storage space.
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  22. #40
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    Re: Have you changed kibble since the DCM scare?

    You know, I was just thinking about something... in Europe, most dogs are not neutered. I wonder if it has a correlation? I mean, less likely to get overweight, so more likely to eat the recommended amounts too...
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