spray bottle with vinegar/water?
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Thread: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Cracker's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    The neurochemical released in our brains from aggression is dopamine. This is why when you finally tell someone off that you've been steaming about, it feels so damn good. But the real reinforcing thing for the use of corrections is that, applied forcefully enough and with the RIGHT timing, they do work...it suppresses or changes the behaviour, we are rewarded by THAT and so it is used again because it worked before. It's learning theory applied to the handler.

    This does not of course take into account the long term effects on the dog.

    Punishment is part of the learning quadrants because it works. Whether it is appropriate? That is a different ball of wax.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0114103723.htm

    This is also a great indicator of why it is so important through management and prevention to keep the dog (or human) under threshold while teaching a new behaviour or new response to a trigger. Since it is neurochemically self rewarding, keeping a organism under threshold prevents them from practicing (ie learning) the wiring in the brain that cements the process. Neurons that fire together, wire together.
    Maggi and Cracker, Dog about Rosedale


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  3. #62
    Senior Member wvasko's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
    *shrug* the studies show humans do get a rush of endorphins from aggressive behavior. Not sure that can be helped. We might feel bad because we've been taught that aggression is wrong, but that doesn't change the rewarding brain chemicals. People must find it reinforcing or they wouldn't do it.
    Well I never thought beating up a dog would make anybody feel good, but I have been fortunate enough as a younger man to kick some human butt that was quite rewarding. Of course occasionally I was the receiver of same program.
    Dinosaur Dog Trainer


  4. #63
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Plenty of people do beat their dogs, which clearly they find rewarding or they wouldn't do it. But aggression takes many forms, not all are as overt as beating (seeing how the main discussion is about spraying a dog with vinegar). Such methods are common because they are ultimately satisfying for the owner, regardless of whether they actually work or not (and we are more likely to decide a method works if we find it satisfying, even if an impartial observer sees no difference). That's why "The Dogfather" and Cesar are so popular.
    "Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
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  5. #64
    Senior Member Pawzk9's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantero View Post
    I suspect they did train them, at least in some basic ways. Such as a dog coming into camp and trying to steal food, probably got a kick in the ribs, rock/stick thrown at it, or worse. Same for a dog who showed aggression towards the humans, or other undesired behaviour. The dogs had the option to simply not come back though, at least originally. So not a real master type relationship. I suspect it wasn't until later that they became considered property and were kept around by tying them up or other devices. At which point they no longer had the option to leave, and I from what I have read most of the training was done using adversives. I don't see the early trainers using markers, or desensitization, or other techniques which are common today. The dog either performed as desired, or it was removed from the group in one way or another.
    Does that mean we need to train like cavemen? Or that training is more effective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
    Plenty of people do beat their dogs, which clearly they find rewarding or they wouldn't do it. But aggression takes many forms, not all are as overt as beating (seeing how the main discussion is about spraying a dog with vinegar). Such methods are common because they are ultimately satisfying for the owner, regardless of whether they actually work or not (and we are more likely to decide a method works if we find it satisfying, even if an impartial observer sees no difference). That's why "The Dogfather" and Cesar are so popular.
    I honestly think many people do not-so-nice things to their dogs because they don't know anything else, or because some supposed expert told them that was how to train a dog. I know when I first started training dogs, I was told to do a number of not-so-nice things in training. And I did them because I didn't know any other way. I didn't particularly get a rush from it or enjoyment from it. In fact, much of the time I felt pretty bad about doing it, but thought it was better and safer to have a trained dog than an untrained dog.

    I was a child at a time when children were frequently paddled in school and spanked by parents. I did get a few good spankings from my father. I don't think he particularly enjoyed it (though I had a few teachers who really appeared to enjoy it). My dad was a kind man who loved me very much. He was simply following how all the child rearing experts (except Dr. Spock, who was still considered mostly a crank) said to do it. But I didn't really learn anything from the spankings either, other than how to avoid getting caught.

    The thing is, I think there are a lot of people who use harsher, physical methods who are as attached to, and care for their dogs just as much as people who do not. And there is probably a certain amount of ambivalence and guilt about it already. If we want to tell people that squirting their dogs is a sign of their inherent sadism, we can certainly say that. But it is probably not true, and probably drives them further away from chosing less forceful methods (if that's our goal) "Violence begins where knowledge ends."
    Last edited by Pawzk9; 05-03-2011 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  6. #65
    Senior Member dantero's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pawzk9 View Post
    Does that mean we need to train like cavemen? Or that training is more effective?
    Is that really what you got from my comments, or are you trying to make a point with a question?

  7. #66
    Senior Member Pawzk9's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantero View Post
    Is that really what you got from my comments?
    Pretty much.

  8. #67
    Senior Member dantero's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
    seeing how the main discussion is about spraying a dog with vinegar
    Actually it's about spraying a dog with a vinegar/water mixture. Might seem like splitting hairs, but it's the difference between patting someone on the arm and punching them in the face. Both are "physical blows", but there is quite a range of force between them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pawzk9 View Post
    Pretty much.
    Then you might want to re-read them, and the posts they were in response to.
    Last edited by dantero; 05-03-2011 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  9. #68
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pawzk9 View Post
    If we want to tell people that squirting their dogs is a sign of their inherent sadism, we can certainly say that. But it is probably not true, and probably drives them further away from chosing less forceful methods.
    Do you really think so? I have always thought that it's necessary for us to recognize our basest instincts (including inherent "sadism") before we can make a conscious decision to do something different. But maybe you're right. I don't know. I don't claim to understand people, or dogs, really. I understand cats.
    "Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
    Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

  10. #69
    Senior Member GypsyJazmine's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Before I ever sprayed vinegar on one of my dogs I'd simply leave them at home from events that they don't enjoy!

    Chelle

  11. #70
    Senior Member Pawzk9's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
    Do you really think so? I have always thought that it's necessary for us to recognize our basest instincts (including inherent "sadism") before we can make a conscious decision to do something different. But maybe you're right. I don't know. I don't claim to understand people, or dogs, really. I understand cats.
    If I happen to recognize my basest instincts, it may very well prompt me to make a conscious decision to change. However, you can't make a "personal realization" for someone else. They have to do it for themselves. And if that person is on the verge of having a paradigm shift, by making judgements about their behavior, all you are likely to do is drive them back to cling to the things they already think they know. Add to that the fact that it can be VERY difficult to suss out another person's true motivation. Especially somebody you don't know.
    Last edited by Pawzk9; 05-03-2011 at 02:41 PM.

  12. #71
    Senior Member wvasko's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Do you really think so? I have always thought that it's necessary for us to recognize our basest instincts (including inherent "sadism") before we can make a conscious decision to do something different. But maybe you're right. I don't know. I don't claim to understand people, or dogs, really. I understand cats.
    I can understand if people want to make a conscious decision to change themselves, but adding the "us" to anything disturbs me.
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  13. #72
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    We've used an empty pop can with some change in it. If our dog got naughty when she was a pup, we would just give the can a small shake. The noise worked and it doesn't hurt the dog. And if a dog can't be trusted to take out in public, then don't do it without an experienced trainer.

  14. #73
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by wvasko View Post
    I can understand if people want to make a conscious decision to change themselves, but adding the "us" to anything disturbs me.
    By "us" I meant humans in general .

    Discussions of why people do the things they do fascinates me. I feel like Data on Star Trek TNG .

    But mostly I became interested in the subject because I also did a number of not-very-nice things to my first dog. Totally ruined the poor puppy. Yes, because the training books said I should and I didn't know any better. But. . .I also found that permission to behave aggressively to be disturbingly satisfying on a very primitive level, even though it made me feel guilty consciously. It's a weird paradox of the human mind, I guess.
    Last edited by Willowy; 05-03-2011 at 03:14 PM.
    "Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
    Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

  15. #74
    Senior Member SydTheSpaniel's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    I don't know about the vinegar, I don't really agree with that.... but when I worked at the doggie daycare, we used water spray bottles as a 'punishment' when ever the dogs barked indoors or got too rough with other dogs. But... then again, we all know this particular place was bad news. I agree that prevention and training is much better.

  16. #75
    Senior Member dantero's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by babybasset View Post
    We've used an empty pop can with some change in it. If our dog got naughty when she was a pup, we would just give the can a small shake. The noise worked and it doesn't hurt the dog.
    Generally a "penny can" works because it startles or scares the dog. In the case of a dog it startles, once they get used to the noise and it no longer startles them, it also no longer works. So if it works long term, it's usually because it scares the dog. Which IMO is just as much of a negative for the dog as a physical correction.

    They also don't work on all dogs. My dogs think they are toys, shake one near them and they will all be trying to see who gets it first to play with.

  17. #76
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    I agree with you on this one. The soda can with pennies is an aversive, just as the vinegar-water is, and I wouldn't recommend that either. As others have stated, every dog has a different threshold of pain, sensitivities, etc. Some dogs are "soft" and even harsh voices would scare/upset them. Penny cans can have the same reaction, too. Just because things may not physically hurt a dog doesn't mean it doesn't bother or upset them.
    I mean, the penny can might work simply as an attention getter for some dogs, but for others it might send them running to hide under the nearest chair, and that's not helping, either.

  18. #77
    Senior Member sassafras's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by dantero View Post
    Then you might want to re-read them, and the posts they were in response to.
    Yea I didn't get that off your comments at all.

  19. #78
    Senior Member cynster's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    I'm in agreement that there are many different training methods that work for many different types of dogs. Spray works for some dogs or it wouldn't be used. Some dogs are more sensitive than others. I don't think spray is abusive for most dogs. I think it's a bit much for my dog, but she's timid.

    With the caveman example, I absolutely agree. In the beginning it is very likely methods were negative reinforcement, which doesn't work as well as positive reinforcement, but it obviously worked, and dogs somehow got the idea that humans help them compared to wolves who problem solve on their own. Of course we have evolved and our methods have evolved, but to say that anything that isn't positive reinforcement is abusive is pushing it. From what I read the point of that example was that cavemen used negative reinforcement but were still able to bond with their dogs to create them into what they are today.

  20. #79
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by cynster View Post
    cavemen used negative reinforcement but were still able to bond with their dogs to create them into what they are today.
    I don't think we can say that at all. The humans alive when dogs first domesticated didn't leave dog training books around for us to find. I think it's just a guess based on the premise that since those humans weren't as "advanced" as we are now, they must have used harsh physical methods. I think that's a flawed assumption, we really have no idea how they treated dogs.
    "Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
    Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

  21. #80
    Senior Member wvasko's Avatar
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    Re: spray bottle with vinegar/water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
    I don't think we can say that at all. The humans alive when dogs first domesticated didn't leave dog training books around for us to find. I think it's just a guess based on the premise that since those humans weren't as "advanced" as we are now, they must have used harsh physical methods. I think that's a flawed assumption, we really have no idea how they treated dogs.
    Hey I was there, We had a club(big stick) for the wife and another (smaller stick) for the dog, times were good.
    Dinosaur Dog Trainer


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