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Pet Peeve, no pun intended...

1K views 12 replies 10 participants last post by  MagicRe 
#1 ·
Just a small rant. I am not saying that how Ceasar Milan trains his dogs is wrong, I just don't believe you can watch a show on TV and then become a trainer at the same level.

Last night while I was at Agility practise at our club there was a young girl (18-25) with a young fairly large lab mix. I guess the dog's age to be around one. The whole time she was outside she had the dog up on it's hind feet "Ssssing" in its face or on its back. She was outside at least 1/2 an hour and I think the dog may have been on all fours for a total of 5 minutes:mad:. Whatever she was trying to accomplish was not working, as everytime she let the dog up, it would start pulling away on the leash and the whole scenerio would start again.

Our club has a Positive but not Permissve philosophy of training. I am pretty sure that is why she was outside, so the instructors could not see her.

Again, apparently Ceasar Milan's training style works for him, but I don't think it is for the average joe blow. I would much rather build a relationship of mutual trust with my dog than force it to do my bidding. All of our dogs, last night, were doing very complex agility courses, I don't think my dog would have worked as hard for me if I was constantly "Ssssing" in his face or rolling him on his back everytime he made a mistake or even blew me off.
 
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#4 ·
My pet peeve is using "no pun intended" when it obviously was - right up there with "literally" :rolleyes: - hahahahaha...just had to vent...nothing personal =) Just had a customer use both on me not half an hour ago...arrgh.

Anyway, in my opinion anything seen on TV or internet etc...should be taken with a grain of salt. Every dog is different just like people. You can't watch a TV show and automatically apply the same techniques to your personal situation. Ridiculous....and it usually ends up getting people and their dogs in trouble. One on One with a professional is the only way to go.
 
#5 ·
Again, apparently Ceasar Milan's training style works for him, but I don't think it is for the average joe blow. I would much rather build a relationship of mutual trust with my dog than force it to do my bidding.
I agree.. however I think there really is a lot to be said for the way you act around a dog - I know that my mom's dog is a complete psychotic mess around her, but when I've dogsat and my mom is not around, she is a COMPLETELY different dog. It is almost a bazaar change - she's much quieter, calmer, and obedient, and since she actually gets exercise, she seems happier too. My mom yells at her a lot, does not walk her or try to keep her active in any other way, has never really TRIED to train her, reinforces some very bad (IMO) habits (like pawing for attention or standing up and putting her paws on you to be pet, which would NEVER fly for me, unless it was something I was specifically training with a given command - not just something the dog does to GET attention) and my mom has a very anxious personality in general, which I am 100% sure her dog picks up on.. so of course she's a mess of a dog... around my mom.

The only training I do with my dogs is pretty much 100% positive reinforcement... and I'm never worked up or stressed out if it's "not" working, which I think makes a big difference. I was able to teach my mom's dog sit, down, and stay, and reliably recall within a few hours the first time I dogsat (we live on acreage and usually the dogs aren't leashed outside of the small fenced "backyard" area, so a good recall matters out here). She does them great for me, as well as my kids, but absolutely won't for my mom - because mom's attitude is different.

My mom can't handle my dog Charlie at all (60+lb lab mix), and he's relatively easy for me.. but I've watched my mom try, and all she does is get angry, and start yelling, yanking on the leash, etc, and it just escalates, as does his behavior (which I don't view as 100% his fault). It's frustrating to watch it, honestly, because I feel like she's doing it on purpose to try to "prove" that he's a bad dog (and he is NOT, but he's big and high energy, and he needs a lot of direction) but I realize more that it's just that she has no idea how to behave around a dog, or even what to try to do with the dog to get them to behave. I focus more on keeping his attention and maintaining motivation which is why I can handle him so easily - both of which are concepts she just does not understand.

BTW, my in-laws are very much into Cesar, and I find it amusing that their two dogs are both polar opposites.. they have one nice calm submissive dog and the other that is an absolute mess. I think that's proof alone that it works for some dogs, but not others.. you have to be flexible enough to figure out what DOES work, not stuck on any one method. If "my" method ever stops working for me, I'll certainly seek out alternatives, but for now, as long as I have dogs that are highly food and toy motivated, I see no reason to change it, because it's working :)
 
#11 · (Edited)
GREAT post!!!

I do love Cesar, and I think he's always improving and trying new techniques. His latest episodes have been very much so positive. I've always loved Cesar and I am totally under the belief that some dogs NEED more control, while others naturally don't. Jackson's more of a sensitive, shy type of dog so putting him on his back, or 'dominating' him would probably not work. He's never needed that. Now, I dogsit for a Rottie who, at only 11 weeks old, is already showing that he definitely wants to be the boss... so the owner is more under the 'pack leader' mentality. Every dog is different; what works for some won't work for others. For Jackson, positive reinforcement and clicker training has been the way to go! I watch both Cesar and Victoria's shows and take something from both. I don't always agree with what Cesar does and I don't always agree with what Victoria does, but I think they are both great trainers, just in totally different categories. Victoria is more of a 'sit-stay-down' trainer while Cesar handles more aggressive (or what owners think are aggressive) dogs and just gets their mind balanced. I saw an episode the other day where he said "I'm not trying to dominate this dog at all, he doesn't need it," or something along those lines. He works with each dog differently.

I wanted to add, it does make me chuckle when I see people doing the 'sshhtt" sound and like totally just saying it just sound cool or something haha. Most clearly don't know when do it, when to correct, when to say 'sshtt' and Cesar has said before his mother used to say 'sshhtt' to him when he was a boy and in trouble, so that's why he started saying it. He tells people to use whatever they want, whether it be no, ah-ah, etc.
 
#6 ·
The sad thing is, is this was just a pup with so much potential. I just wanted to go and "Ssss" in her face, roll her on her back and then take her dog. It was a great dog, even through all her nonsense, it was grinning away and wagging its tail waiting for the next oppotunity to pull her along. :) :)
 
#7 ·
This kind of reminds me of my cousin. His family has an awesome, completely well behaved 7 year old golden retriever. Recently I found out from my aunt that he has been doing the hissing noise at his dog instead of just saying "no", as though there is something about that noise that all dogs automatically respond to. He doesn't use any other techniques, but it is pretty humorous to imagine him hssing at the dog, and the dog having no clue what the heck he's trying to do. Although it worries me because I know there are people out there taking what my cousin is doing to the extreme and using every technique in that show without knowing exactly how to do it, in what circumstances, or even if that is a good way to train an un-aggressive dog (or even an aggressive one).
 
#9 ·
This kind of reminds me of my cousin. His family has an awesome, completely well behaved 7 year old golden retriever. Recently I found out from my aunt that he has been doing the hissing noise at his dog instead of just saying "no", as though there is something about that noise that all dogs automatically respond to. He doesn't use any other techniques, but it is pretty humorous to imagine him hssing at the dog, and the dog having no clue what the heck he's trying to do. Although it worries me because I know there are people out there taking what my cousin is doing to the extreme and using every technique in that show without knowing exactly how to do it, in what circumstances, or even if that is a good way to train an un-aggressive dog (or even an aggressive one).
I heard CM say once that he uses that because it is what "naturally" falls out of his mouth. Some people use "no", some use "stop", or "aht aht" (I use "aht aht" as a NRM, "no" is not often heard and means STOP what you're doing..NOW) :) I think it's (in a way) funny how people think the noise is what makes the dogs behave. The only time anything remotely close to the "shht" noise CM makes is when I say "shhhhhhh..." to a puppy on my grooming table who's freaking out because of scary clippers, scary noises, etc :)
I had one customer who talked to her dog in an accent :confused: I had no idea why until it came out that she talks like Victoria Stillwell because "dogs listen to her" :D
 
#8 ·
Yeah, it really upsets me when people pull this stuff with happy-go-lucky dogs who simply need a little manners training.

The big problem with Cesar is that I think people watch him and feel like the dog should instinctively know to do certain things (not pull on the leash, not jump, etc) without any training.. which is not the case. So, they skip the training and go straight for the bullshit.

Exercise, discipline, affection sounds good enough to the untrained person, except where's the part about training?
 
#10 ·
Yeah, it really upsets me when people pull this stuff with happy-go-lucky dogs who simply need a little manners training.

The big problem with Cesar is that I think people watch him and feel like the dog should instinctively know to do certain things (not pull on the leash, not jump, etc) without any training.. which is not the case. So, they skip the training and go straight for the bullshit.

Exercise, discipline, affection sounds good enough to the untrained person, except where's the part about training?
I think the "discipline" is more or less "training", just not as formal and not expecting a certain behavior. I wish CM would use more of "do this instead of this", instead of "just don't do that". I've been cautiously optimistic about him since seeing some of his newer episodes; I haven't seen them all but he seems like he's evolving (as all good trainers should, IMO). Since he seems to have such a following with JQP, I would be really glad if he kept evolving into a more positive approach!
 
#12 ·
One of the things I don't like about the show that people think you can do this in 20,30 minutes in real life.I'm not a professional trainer in any way. I can tell Snowball "No!" all day long,but she don't listen.But if I make a noise like "ANNGGNT",she quits instantly.May not work for anybody elses dog,but it works for me.
 
#13 ·
as with anything in life, we take the best from what we learn from several different sources.

my pug, for example. the sound cesar makes worked on my ditch dog when she would charge the fence...and the claiming of the space worked beautifully....

but that sound had no effect on my pug...the word 'stop' did.

every dog is different....the one thing CM taught me was the calm part....being assertive, rather than a bully...consistency and address the situation now before it beomces a PITA for the rest of my life.

other than that...i don't 'train' my dogs...i make them less annoying to others, like not permitting them to jump on others...do i alpha roll the pug because he's not socially appropriate? no....but i will put my hands on him, kneel down to eye level and tell him to knock it off or stop. and i will keep doing it.

there are things to learn from every trainer....and every style, other than the punitive ones....

but, i also keep in mind the situation...if a dog is aggressive to the point of hurting someone, that's a drastic situation...calls for drastic measures....

if a dog is barking incessantly, then measures are called for each and every time the dog barks more than you want them to, but certainly nothing drastic...

and, if opening the fridge gets my lazy pug to come, then that's what i will use.

i think if there is anything to get from CM and his show is the fact that we have to address the situations...they do not go away on their own.
 
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