List of bad breeders?
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  1. #1
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    List of bad breeders?

    Is there a list of bad breeders anywhere on this site? Or, perhaps more specifically, a forum for people who have had awful experiences with breeders have shared their stories?

    If not, I think it would be a wonderful resource - if only as a first step for potential puppy buyers to begin their research.

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    Senior Member hulkamaniac's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to list all the bad breeders in the world, much less just the States.

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    True enough but don't you think its a good idea to dedicate a forum where individuals could post their bad experiences with breeders around the country? I know it would have been helpful to me...maybe it would be helpful to others as well?

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    Senior Member ThoseWordsAtBest's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Add in the fact that anyone can breed a dog and we'd be listing people for the rest of our lives. It is NOT hard to pick a good breeder from a bad one if you do your research. When people buy a mixed breed they ordered from a website that has tons of different breeds listed and problems arise we can't really go out and throw them on a bad list because you're supposed to figure those things out BEFORE you buy.

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Few people here can even agree what a bad breeder is.

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    Senior Member RaeganW's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Quote Originally Posted by KaseyT View Post
    Few people here can even agree what a bad breeder is.
    True, when talking about borderline breeders. I think most people are agreed on what is clearly bad.
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    Senior Member hulkamaniac's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusadedog View Post
    True enough but don't you think its a good idea to dedicate a forum where individuals could post their bad experiences with breeders around the country? I know it would have been helpful to me...maybe it would be helpful to others as well?
    But where do you start? And just because one person has a bad experience with a particular breeder doesn't make that breeder a "bad breeder."

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    Super Moderator RonE's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    You will never see such a list on dogforums and threads along those lines will generally be deleted.

    The notion of bad breeders is highly subjective and potentially libelous.

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    If you want to be sued go ahead and list peoples names. That is exactly what is going to happen. What you may think is bad may not actually be. Give an example of what happened to you. You may think this person is a bad breeder, but in reality is a good one. It all depends on the circumstances.

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    With all due respect to everybody who posted....

    Puppy-Mill (def): facility that breeds for profit with no regard for breed standard, genetically linked defects, socialization, temperament, or the overall health and welfare of the dogs in their breeding program. Puppy Mills are illegal in some countries.

    That seems like a pretty solid definition to me. However, the purpose of my original post was NOT to villify breeders, build a "wall of shame" or group ALL breeders in the same category.

    That being said, there is NO questions that there are "breeders" who conduct business in such a fashion that would easily earn them the label of a bad breeder. While there is room for subjective analysis, a breeder who knowingly sells a puppy with Parvo, provides incomplete documentation regarding vaccination records then disappears once the puppy dies doesn't have the luxury of the benefit of the doubt.

    As for being sued for libel once a consumer exposes such a "breeder?" Yes, that has been the sword wielded by breeders who are in the wrong in an effort to keep consumers from exposing them. However, if a consumer retains the documentation needed, i.e. evidence by way of veterinary records, etc. then the issue of libel becomes quite moot and a puppy-miller seldom has the evidence to back up their side of the argument!

    I didn't do as much research as I should have and I carry the burden of being remiss. That doesn't mean that the "breeder" doesn't have their own share of responsibility in the matter. Now, why would a breeder who has NOTHING to hide mouth off threats of libel? I wouldn't expect a consumer who bought a television set then dropped it to post a negative review on the manufacturer of said appliance!

    If libel were a genuine threat (and if consumers actually KNEW what such a suit entails,) they wouldn't be discouraged from exposing puppy-mills. Let me put it another way: Are consumers who post reviews on Amazon, Ebay, MySimon, Overstock, Barnes and Nobel or any other shopping website fall under the threat of libel? No. It's called free speech! Last time I posted a review on a Norelco appliance the company's first line of defense wasn't "LIBEL!"

    I merely thoght, naively as it turns out, that an individual wanting to purchase a puppy and going about doing their research would benefit from hearing what others have experienced with the same breeder. A jumping off point, as you will, to ask the right questions before proceeding.

    Should consumers do their research? Yes. However, are there puppy-mills calling themselves "breeders" who are irresponsible and disreputable? Absolutely! I was merely trying to spare anyone else the heartbreak of holding a puppy and have it die in your arms hours after you've purchased him!

    Perhaps listing breeders is a bad idea but NOT because of the threat of a lawsuit. It might simply open up the floodgates, as many of you pointed out, for people to post ANY experience, irrespective of how innocuous it is, and taint that breeder's reputation. Point taken.

    I guess then my message would be this: Do your research. There are PLENTY of websites who post puppy-millers (and who are not being sued, by the way) for consumers to check out.

    Thanks to everyone who answered my post. I see the other side of such a venture and understand how it could affect reputable breeders. On the other hand, I hope some of you were enlightened by my perspective as well.
    Last edited by Crusadedog; 03-06-2010 at 09:43 PM.

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    If not, I think it would be a wonderful resource - if only as a first step for potential puppy buyers to begin their research.
    Perhaps those potential puppy buyers would be better served by solid advice about what to look for in a good breeder. That information IS available here.

    I see from the responses I received that I was barking up the wrong tree as to the purpose of this site and who it caters to.
    This forum caters to dog lovers. A high percentage of the membership is quite passionate about canines - a fact that you would recognize if you took a little time to get acquainted before commencing your personal crusade.

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Which of my coments did you misunderstand and lead you to believe that I am NOT a dog-lover. I've spent the better part of 30 years rescuing dogs (shelters, pounds, unwanted neighborhood pups,) what completely threw me was my experience with a "breeder." Again, I was simply trying to spare anyone the pain I experienced.

    Yes, the public should be responsible for doing the research necessary to undertake purchasing a puppy, however, that isn't always enough.

    I understand the negative effects that listing "bad" experiences would have on good, honest breeders by disgruntled buyers. I admitted as much after I read the responses to my post.

    As far as puppy-millers are concerned? You're absolutely right! It most certainly HAS become my crusade! And after what my family and I suffered, to say nothing of the poor little animal I unwittingly purchased from a breeder who was already in the advanced stages of Parvo - it is the LEAST I can do!

    I simply didn't expect the seemingly protective nature toward breeders. Don't consumers require protection as well?

    I won't make my point ad nauseum...thank you to everyone that responded. My intentions were not ill-willed.

  14. #13
    Senior Member hulkamaniac's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    I don't think the intent of this forum is to protect breeders. Clearly, you're not familiar with this particular forum if you think that's the case.

    If you make a list of bad breeders and say, "These are known bad breeders. Avoid them."

    ABC breeder
    XYZ breeder
    Another breeder
    etc.....

    Then you open yourself up to libel. Those breeders can sue the pants off both you and this forum. Amazon is different because people are posting things that happened to them.

    If I say ABC Breeder screwed me over, that's not libel as long as it's accurate and I detail factually what they did. I'm sorry you bought a puppy with Parvo. But just because did doesn't mean that breeder always sells puppies with Parvo.

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    Super Moderator RonE's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    I simply didn't expect the seemingly protective nature toward breeders.
    Not so much interested in protecting breeders - especially shady ones. My job is to protect this forum.

    You may believe that labeling a breeder as bad on a publicly-accessible (but privately-owned) Internet forum is equivalent to writing a bad product review for an appliance. It is not. There is, in fact, a sub-forum here for reviews of dog-related products.

    Look around the forum. Maybe even introduce yourself. Then decide if this is a place concerned with protecting breeders. As a community, we are suspicious of anyone who walks in firing both barrels without so much as a 'howdy.'

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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    RonE (Moderator):

    My sincere apologies. As dog-lovers, I hope you understand that it is the deep sorrow of my loss that perhaps made me come across as wanting to "fire both barrels" indiscriminately. Thank you for allowing me a second chance to make a good first impression.

    I'm a private individual, in academia and have owned dogs (mostly strays, abandoned and rescued mixed-breeds) all my life. As a highschooler, I volunteered for the Humane Socieity. I learned a lot, both good and bad. For 12 yrs, I have also run a dog-sitting service which started out as a hobby by taking care of my friends' and family's pets. That led to referrals, etc. Due to the fact that I work for the government, I am fingerprinted and I am bonded. Dogs, and their well-fare, are one of my life's greatest joys.

    That being said, and again, no offense intended to anyone who falls into this category, I am not a member of PETA nor am I some renegade, militant individual looking to save dogs all over the world by snapping locks on cages in the middle of the night. I am not out to destroy anyone's reputation or put anyone out of business.

    A couple of months ago, my husband and I decided to add to our family. We don't have kids - just three dogs that I've had for many years - and fortunately, a comfortable home and a spacious backyard. Throughout my life, ALL my dogs have been indoor dogs and while I may not be Cesar Milan, I know my way around our canine brethren.

    Now, as to the particulars and the reason for my asking what I thought was a simple question.

    I made the mistake (yes, I admit that I was remiss) to purchase a dog from a breeder I found online. I did some research and had my list of questions to ask. I spoke to the breeder on the phone several times. I researched their license number with the USDA (yes, I know...) and believed that the documentation they said I would receive with the puppy would be what would indeed be sent. It wasn't.

    My puppy arrived from MO with advanced stages of Parvo, one look at him and I could tell he had been kept in deplorable conditions both at his breeder's home and perhaps, on the back of the truck that brought him to me. And even though I knew this from the time he was placed in my arms, there was NO way to was going to place him back on that truck.

    Five hours later, I was at an emergency clinic due to the obvious symptoms of Parvo. It was the middle of the night and the diagnosis was conclusive. He was in dire need of immediate attention. The emergency veterinarian even documented that in his opinion, this puppy showed all the signs of being a "puppy mill" puppy. He treated him as best he could and I was at my own vet's office first thing the very next day. Same diagnosis. My puppy had a 50/50 chance of making it. I wasn't going to give up on a puppy that my vet of over ten years said still had a chance so, we hospitalized him.

    When I contacted the breeder, their affable demeanor cracked and I got a glimpse of what I was dealing with. They refunded my purchase price but only after they demanded they speak to my veterinarian. I gave them both numbers and within ten minutes, they called back to tell me that they would issue a refund because my puppy would most likely die overnight!

    A conversation with both my vets revealed that the breeder called them and INSISTED their diagnosis was incorrect, that the tests they performed were flawed and when they wouldn't change their documentation, they hung up on them. As a matter of fact, the breeder contacted my vet throughout the course of several days and when they were refused access to my vet, became enraged and cursed at the vet techs and the receptionists who took the calls.

    When I showed the docs that came with my puppy, my veterinarian explained what I really had. A signed health certificate attesting that my puppy showed no signs of any deadly or communicable diseases and was fit for travel (both of my vets documented that my puppy was in the advanced stages of Parvo and that it was NOT something he picked up during his two day trip to me.) However, the same certificate mentioned the "vaccination records listed above are true and accurate." Only one problem, the cells where those vaccination records should have been listed were empty. The second document was a poorly copied, hand-made "vaccination" form. It did have the vaccines listed, when they were given but were NOT signed by the veterinarian. They also did not have the stickers that would accompany such a record with the vaccination lot# and expiration date. The breeder told me then that they gave their own shots. I understand now that this is not unusual. As my vet pointed out, though, without the rest of the information or a veterinarian's signature there was NO way of verifying if the shots had even been given.

    My puppy fought for his life every single day. When the vet bill came to over $1,000 I contacted the breeder and asked them to please assist me with the expense. I didn't ask them to pay for their care - just for some assistance. I explained that I wanted to give my puppy every chance to make it and that while he fought, I was determined to give him the opportunity to do so. No response.

    My puppy lost his battle with Parvo, an upper respiratory infection (complication from Parvo) and the parasites that had further compromised his immune system (again, making the Parvo even more of a threat.)

    As I hope you can see, my visceral reaction to this event is well-merited. My family is heartbroken, I can only imagine what my poor little guy suffered before he got to me then, what he had to go through to survive. Now, add to this that a "breeder" introduced Parvo into my home! As a forum who is well-versed in dog matters, I'm sure you know full well the measures I had to take to ensure that my home and my other dogs were safe from this deadly disease.

    My evidence was enough to get this "breeder" banned from an advertising site online. And believe me, that was NO easy task. I had to submit every piece of documentation I had before they would even allow a negative review to be posted. Meanwhile, I began to search deeper. This breeder had been in violation of USDA regulations a couple of years back. However, they had changed their business name, obtained a new license number and the preliminary inspection allowed them to continue doing business.

    I also found other complaints against the same breeder under different company name. It was all beginning to come together.

    For the following two weeks, the advertising site in question gave us both time to submit evidence to back up our respective claims. They had none. I have a plethora. They sided with me. The instant my negative review went up, the breeder removed themselves from the site entirely! Not the sign of a good breeder, I would think, or of one who had an isolated case of Parvo.

    I called the vet they used. The breeder had already contacted him to let him know that "some" of the puppies he signed off on had Parvo and that one would most likely die. When he told them that assisting me would be the "right thing to do," he found her to be spiteful and vengeful. Then, HE SENT ME A CHECK FOR $200.00 TO HELP WITH THE EXPENSES! I don't care why he did it - I'm sure a lot of you have your suspicions and I'm not in a position to disagree. Bottom line? He tried to help and was very cooperative regarding his conversation with the breeder. It might just be that the puppies he examined were NOT the puppies the breeder shipped....

    Worse, yet? The breeder blasted me and even called into question that my puppy had passed away! I had to send pictures of the styrofoam cooler they placed him in - his little body tag taped to the lid! Response? "Do not contact me any longer. I have nothing to say to you."

    So, please forgive me if I came across as a firecracker. It was NOT my intent. I'll say it again...I simply believed that stories from other people (who can prove their allegations, not just talk trash) might help other potential dog-owners.

    If my passion came across as misplaced, I apologize but the pain I feel is so raw and so deep that I feel it is my responsibility to do something to help others.

    I read everyone's posts and I now realize the dangers (again, not legally as I am proceeding against this breeder by legal means and have been assured that I have just cause to do so - and win) of posting stories that cannot be verified and could very well endanger the reputation of responsible breeders. I was enlightened by your responses and I said as much. However, I would hope that there is room to call a breeder, such as the one I encountered, out and be made to account for their actions in a forum - not just a courtroom. Perhaps not yours, sir, and I wasn't trying to make it so. Likewise, I respect your responsibility to protect your forum.

    Business owners, responsible breeders and the like have rights and I've no dispute with that. But, dog-lovers whose hearts has been broken by the loss of a beloved pet AND by the unaccountability of breeders due to their "libel lawsuit threats" should have rights as well. Far too many are scammed and far too many animals are mishandled, abused and neglected. The media coverage is enough to make that clear.

    I wasn't trying to start a riot on your forum, stir up trouble or run up a hill armed with fire torches against unsuspecting breeders. I asked a question...ill-phrased perhaps, but not ill-willed. I have NO desire to disrupt your discussion forum.

    I hope in this last attempt, I have explained myself, my circumstances and my experience adequately.

    Once again, thank you for your patience and please accept my apologies if I came across as brusque and impolite.

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    Senior Member Dogstar's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    I'm sorry you got taken by a bad breeder.

    HOWEVER, this just points to the importance of DOING YOUR RESEARCH and NOT assuming that 30 years of doing rescue (or owning dogs!) qualifies you to understand what makes a reputable, responsible, ethical breeder without doing any research.

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    Senior Member MafiaPrincess's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Have you read about the Lady in Ontario who wrote about her bad experience with a 'breeder' on a dog forum. Called the breeders in quebec a mill and was sued. The breeders won. They were even going to go after the forum. I think they came to an agreement though that if they deleted all of this lady's threads that they wouldn't sue the forum too. She has been stuck with an unending amount of legal fees.. and it's tied up something like 4-5 years of her life.

    I don't think that listing bad breeders would go over well if the breeders ever found out.
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Never said it was a "mill", said they were a "bad breeder". I have $3,000.00 in vet bills within 2 weeks of receiving my puppy, over 40 pages of documentation and 6 vets in my corner. Sure doesn't make it a "good breeder".

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    Senior Member RaeganW's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusadedog View Post
    I made the mistake (yes, I admit that I was remiss) to purchase a dog from a breeder I found online. I did some research and had my list of questions to ask. I spoke to the breeder on the phone several times. I researched their license number with the USDA (yes, I know...) and believed that the documentation they said I would receive with the puppy would be what would indeed be sent. It wasn't

    ...

    Five hours later, I was at an emergency clinic due to the obvious symptoms of Parvo. It was the middle of the night and the diagnosis was conclusive. He was in dire need of immediate attention. The emergency veterinarian even documented that in his opinion, this puppy showed all the signs of being a "puppy mill" puppy. He treated him as best he could and I was at my own vet's office first thing the very next day. Same diagnosis. My puppy had a 50/50 chance of making it. I wasn't going to give up on a puppy that my vet of over ten years said still had a chance so, we hospitalized him.

    ...

    When I showed the docs that came with my puppy, my veterinarian explained what I really had. A signed health certificate attesting that my puppy showed no signs of any deadly or communicable diseases and was fit for travel (both of my vets documented that my puppy was in the advanced stages of Parvo and that it was NOT something he picked up during his two day trip to me.) However, the same certificate mentioned the "vaccination records listed above are true and accurate." Only one problem, the cells where those vaccination records should have been listed were empty. The second document was a poorly copied, hand-made "vaccination" form. It did have the vaccines listed, when they were given but were NOT signed by the veterinarian. They also did not have the stickers that would accompany such a record with the vaccination lot# and expiration date. The breeder told me then that they gave their own shots. I understand now that this is not unusual. As my vet pointed out, though, without the rest of the information or a veterinarian's signature there was NO way of verifying if the shots had even been given.

    ...

    My evidence was enough to get this "breeder" banned from an advertising site online. And believe me, that was NO easy task. I had to submit every piece of documentation I had before they would even allow a negative review to be posted. Meanwhile, I began to search deeper. This breeder had been in violation of USDA regulations a couple of years back. However, they had changed their business name, obtained a new license number and the preliminary inspection allowed them to continue doing business.

    I also found other complaints against the same breeder under different company name. It was all beginning to come together.

    For the following two weeks, the advertising site in question gave us both time to submit evidence to back up our respective claims. They had none. I have a plethora. They sided with me. The instant my negative review went up, the breeder removed themselves from the site entirely! Not the sign of a good breeder, I would think, or of one who had an isolated case of Parvo.

    ...

    I hope in this last attempt, I have explained myself, my circumstances and my experience adequately.

    Once again, thank you for your patience and please accept my apologies if I came across as brusque and impolite.
    Post trimmed to parts relevant to what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogstar View Post
    I'm sorry you got taken by a bad breeder.

    HOWEVER, this just points to the importance of DOING YOUR RESEARCH and NOT assuming that 30 years of doing rescue (or owning dogs!) qualifies you to understand what makes a reputable, responsible, ethical breeder without doing any research.
    I think the OP did do her research, just not quite enough and came to the wrong conclusion based on what she had.

    The USDA number, in my opinion, should have been a tipoff. It is hard to say for certain because laws are changing, but I believe only mills are registered and inspected by the USDA. Which makes them legal, but not any less deplorable.

    To the OP, I am sorry for your loss.
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  21. #20
    Super Moderator RonE's Avatar
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    Re: List of bad breeders?

    Again, let me emphasize that there will be no naming of names. We simply don't have the resources to distinguish between legitimate complaints and disgruntled customers (or even competitors.) We also don't allow lists or posts about 'good' breeders.

    For those who have suffered from an experience with a breeder, perhaps a court of law would be a more appropriate venue than the court of public opinion.

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