Papillon and Phalene
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Thread: Papillon and Phalene

  1. #1
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Papillon and Phalene

    Is there really any difference other than ear set? I have the opportunity right now to get either a papillon or a phalene.

    The back story:

    I have been telling my husband for a long time now that I want a Papillon. I love the breed and the ones that I have met have been just dolls. After we went and played with some papillon puppies he decided that he liked them a lot too.

    While he was at work one day his one friend was going around asking people if they are looking for a puppy. My husband asked him what kind and he told him that he and his wife had just bought a pomeranian from the local pet store for $1,000 and quickly realised that they didn't have the time to train it.
    My husband tells him, no. He told the guy that his wife (me) has been wanting a papillon. Someone overheard him and let my husband know that his wife's papillon had just had a litter of puppies. They say that they adopted her pregnant from another friend. Anywho there are three males, and two of them have dropped ears and only one has ears that stand up. I definately want one even though they aren't pedigree. The puppy will be neutered and just be a pet for myself so that I can get some personal experience working with the breed before I buy one from a breeder.
    (btw, I found the breeder I plan on purchasing a puppy from)

    So, my real question is about the ear set. I really wanted a puppy with the traditional pap ears, but the ones with the drop ears are ADORABLE!

    Opinions? I don't want opinions on whether or not I should wait for a puppy from a breeder. I am not buying from a pet store. These puppies need good homes too.

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    Senior Member RaeganW's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    How old are the pups? It's my understanding that their ears start out indistinguishable when they're born, but I don't know at what age you can start to tell.

    That said, it's also my understanding that it is the only difference. You are better off selecting for temprament anyway. There is a temprament test here.

  4. #3
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Quote Originally Posted by RaeganW View Post
    How old are the pups? It's my understanding that their ears start out indistinguishable when they're born, but I don't know at what age you can start to tell.

    That said, it's also my understanding that it is the only difference. You are better off selecting for temprament anyway. There is a temprament test here.
    Thanks. I do know how to test a puppy for temperament though.

    I have met them and they are all pretty sweet. They were raised with NINE children so they have been handled a lot. They seem to really like being held and like to play with people rather than off by themselves. They are all really cute.

    I love both of the ear sets, but I'm wondering if it will leave the phalene's more prone to ear infections?

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    Senior Member aokisweet's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    I dont think any different then a poodle in regards to the ears, just keep them dry and clean them weekly. It's routine in our house.

    $1,000 for a Pom in a pet store - scarey! Anyway if you like it, and clearly know what you want get it. BUT be prepared down the road if you run into a great opportunity to get the Pap you wanted first, you may end up with another one - we did and we have 2 Poms and 2 Poodles.........Love them all!

  6. #5
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Quote Originally Posted by aokisweet View Post
    I dont think any different then a poodle in regards to the ears, just keep them dry and clean them weekly. It's routine in our house.

    $1,000 for a Pom in a pet store - scarey! Anyway if you like it, and clearly know what you want get it. BUT be prepared down the road if you run into a great opportunity to get the Pap you wanted first, you may end up with another one - we did and we have 2 Poms and 2 Poodles.........Love them all!
    I intend on getting from a show breeder down the line and have been in contact with one that I like in Texas, but this is a good opportunity for me to get a pap and work with it before I get my serious show dog. This way I will have some experience with the breed and know just what I want to do. I may end up actually doing agility with the show puppy that I purchase.

    We will end up with lots of dogs no matter what happens. That is just the way that it goes in this household. Any time anyone mentions that they are tossing their dog out on the street my husband is right there with open arms telling them that his wife will take care of them...lol.

    Yeah, I was astonished that someone would pay that kind of money for a pomeranian from a PET STORE! They probably bought the puppy from a broker for a FRACTION of that cost. I wonder what they ended up doing with that poor puppy though. My husband's friend that is the one who purchased the dog commented on how he didn't know that they weren't paper trained before you buy them....sheesh.

    I *think* this is the guy I'm getting.



    BUT, I also have a soft spot for this guy:



    Decisions. Decisions. We shall see who I bring home on the first.

    Sorry for the really bad photos.
    Last edited by BooLette; 12-27-2009 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  7. #6
    Senior Member yappypappymom's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Welcome to the Dark Side...we have cookies...errr, I MEANT to say WELCOME to the Papillon side....we have Bully Sticks!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BooLette View Post
    Is there really any difference other than ear set?
    Nope! Not any other blooming difference!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BooLette View Post
    I really wanted a puppy with the "traditional" pap ears, but the ones with the drop ears are ADORABLE!
    Psst...the "traditional" paps were actually the Phalenes(which means Moth)...it wasn't until 1935 (?) that AKC actually decided to acknowledge the Papillons as ??WHATEVER the word would be here...I have NO idea myself "HOW to "say" it..although, I am POSITIVE that "show" people here would certainly know the term?? I am thinking of a term that means "show-ring worthy" or something of the like...(side note-the Paps & Phalenes still "show" alongside each other in the ring...they DON'T "separate" them into 2 different classes).

    BTW....I LOVE the pup pics!!..of the 2 though, I would go with the best TEMPERAMENT!!..When its all said & done, if you have a pretty pup that doesn't "fit" into your puzzle of life, well...ya know what I mean...on looks alone, I was SUPPOSED to get Leifs' brother, but, when I came home w/the "ugly one", the family was like "Ewwww...WHY did you get THAT one-you SHOULD have gotten the "cute" one"....I never "wavered" to their opinions, & just stuck to the fact that my instincts were in the right place...who knows, maybe that other boy turned out to be a fantastic fella...I will never know..all I DO know is that I have a wonderful boy, with a splotchy ear & the purest of hearts...I say, blindfold yourself when you pick your pup...who knows, your pup MAY just "pick YOU"
    Last edited by yappypappymom; 12-27-2009 at 10:01 PM.

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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Hi I've been reading about papillions and phalene a while ago... most papillion owners say that papillions usually have their ears erected at 4 months and up... However, you will find the ears dropped during the teething stages... But both pappiliion and phalene are cute... Better ask Laurelin about this matter...

  9. #8
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Like I said, they all seem really playful and just high on life. lol. I think that any of them would fit. Maybe I'll take the one that gives me the most kisses on Friday. lol

    How dare you call Leif ugly! He is ADORABLE!!! I also absolutely LOVE the name!

  10. #9
    Yui
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    I have a soft spot for that black and white one! <3
    I say, just choose which ever one chooses you! ;]
    I wish I could get a Phaléne puppy, they're too cute!

  11. #10
    Senior Member lucygoose's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Nope...no difference....just the ear set. :-)

  12. #11
    Senior Member PappyMom's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Yep, agree with everyone else.. No difference, just one is drop-eared, and the other erect. I've met several pap and phalene owners, and they all play, act, bark..etc the same..lol!

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dogs think I am.
    RIP Roxy <3

  13. #12
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    I don't know what to do. I decided that I don't care what the ear set is, but I found some papillon puppies on petfinder in my area that are actually at a shelter that need a new home...

    Guys, what do I do?

  14. #13
    Senior Member Laurelin's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Get one! lol

    Or more.

    Okay, here's the long take. Shouldn't be a difference depending on ears but you should be able to tell early on what the ears will do (though in teething they tend to all go funky). Some people do swear that paps and phalenes have slightly different temperaments and phalenes tend to be calmer. I haven't known enough phalenes to say I see a difference. They all seem the same to me.

    They show together in the US and some other countries however in FCI they are classified as two separate breeds. The phalene in the US has a disadvantage in the show ring although since Cobb and Joonas have been showing they're faring a bit better over here. Paps are easier to show still and it is hard to find a really truly nice phalene stateside. If you're going to show, I'd suggest starting with a pap mostly because they're more often available. The reason paps are easier to show is just because judges here aren't very used to the drop ears. The drop ears completely change the balance of the dog and judges often aren't as familiar with judging them correctly and seeing past the ears. The phalene is the original breed type, the papillon didn't show up for a few hundred years later.

    I prefer the pap ears, myself but I want a phalene one day.
    Last edited by Laurelin; 12-29-2009 at 03:11 PM.
    Mia CGC - (5 year old papillon)
    Summer TG2 TBAD - (10 year old papillon)

  15. #14
    Senior Member PappyMom's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    I knew Laur would put it in better words than I could!! LOL, thank you, Laur..

    I'm partial to pap ears too, although I've seen some very good looking Phalene's too.. I'm in love with the pic of the erect-eared boy you think you're getting. What a cute puppy!! The drop-eared boy is cute too!

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dogs think I am.
    RIP Roxy <3

  16. #15
    Senior Member Laurelin's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Quote Originally Posted by PappyMom View Post
    I knew Laur would put it in better words than I could!! LOL, thank you, Laur..

    I'm partial to pap ears too, although I've seen some very good looking Phalene's too.. I'm in love with the pic of the erect-eared boy you think you're getting. What a cute puppy!! The drop-eared boy is cute too!
    Lol, I've been booted off recently due to the warnings. I'm trying to catch up!
    Mia CGC - (5 year old papillon)
    Summer TG2 TBAD - (10 year old papillon)

  17. #16
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
    Get one! lol

    Or more.

    Okay, here's the long take. Shouldn't be a difference depending on ears but you should be able to tell early on what the ears will do (though in teething they tend to all go funky). Some people do swear that paps and phalenes have slightly different temperaments and phalenes tend to be calmer. I haven't known enough phalenes to say I see a difference. They all seem the same to me.

    They show together in the US and some other countries however in FCI they are classified as two separate breeds. The phalene in the US has a disadvantage in the show ring although since Cobb and Joonas have been showing they're faring a bit better over here. Paps are easier to show still and it is hard to find a really truly nice phalene stateside. If you're going to show, I'd suggest starting with a pap mostly because they're more often available. The reason paps are easier to show is just because judges here aren't very used to the drop ears. The drop ears completely change the balance of the dog and judges often aren't as familiar with judging them correctly and seeing past the ears. The phalene is the original breed type, the papillon didn't show up for a few hundred years later.

    I prefer the pap ears, myself but I want a phalene one day.
    Thank you so much! I was hoping to hear what you had to say on the matter. I really wanted to get the boy with the erect ears because I want to show paps in the future.

    I found a (what I think is) a really good breeder not too far from here in Tx, and super good quality show phalenes are kind of hard to find. The only reason that I am going for a puppy from this litter is so that I can get a feel for the breed and get some experience before buying the perfect show puppy.

    What I find really hard to decide though, is what unwanted litter to go with. It seems like in a couple months papillons have started to really show up here, and they are gaining popularity.

    Something that made me take a step back with the shelter paps though was when I called the number on petfinder it was a cell number. Is this normal or should I just stick to the original plan?

    Right now my husband and I have decided that we really like the one with the erect ears. If I do go that route I'm going to name him Wooga. lol

    Any suggestions or opinions would be awesome and greatly appreciated. Jeez I love you guys!

  18. #17
    Senior Member RaeganW's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    I'd see all the dogs before committing, if possible. Given the selection and that you only want one, it's really about finding the puppy that's going to work for you. In a way, it's very fortuitous timing.

  19. #18
    Senior Member yappypappymom's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    *waits til Friday to see your pick*...LOL...you had BETTER have a camera handy Boo...pictures of your new little "charge" are a MUST!!!

  20. #19
    Senior Member Laurelin's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Quote Originally Posted by BooLette View Post
    Thank you so much! I was hoping to hear what you had to say on the matter. I really wanted to get the boy with the erect ears because I want to show paps in the future.

    I found a (what I think is) a really good breeder not too far from here in Tx, and super good quality show phalenes are kind of hard to find. The only reason that I am going for a puppy from this litter is so that I can get a feel for the breed and get some experience before buying the perfect show puppy.

    What I find really hard to decide though, is what unwanted litter to go with. It seems like in a couple months papillons have started to really show up here, and they are gaining popularity.

    Something that made me take a step back with the shelter paps though was when I called the number on petfinder it was a cell number. Is this normal or should I just stick to the original plan?

    Right now my husband and I have decided that we really like the one with the erect ears. If I do go that route I'm going to name him Wooga. lol

    Any suggestions or opinions would be awesome and greatly appreciated. Jeez I love you guys!
    Would you mind pming me the breeder's name? I may know them as Beau's shown around Texas before.
    Mia CGC - (5 year old papillon)
    Summer TG2 TBAD - (10 year old papillon)

  21. #20
    Senior Member BooLette's Avatar
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    Re: Papillon and Phalene

    Quote Originally Posted by RaeganW View Post
    I'd see all the dogs before committing, if possible. Given the selection and that you only want one, it's really about finding the puppy that's going to work for you. In a way, it's very fortuitous timing.
    I have said several times that I have seen them all and played with them and they all have similar temperaments.

    Laurelin, I sure will if I can figure it out.

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