"Designer dogs".
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  1. #41
    Senior Member Kerry's Avatar
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    What exactly does registering mean? Papers, AKC registration...big deal. I did that with my Golden. Spent months looking for just the right situation and got a baby girl with beautiful, supposedly healthy, parents. Well, 5 years later she died from a heart defect. So stop being so high and mighty about the stupid papers. They don't mean much to me.
    Bringing a new puppy into your life is a big old game of chance. No guarantees. AKC...who cares? Anybody can make up a bunch of phony-looking papers. And it would take a pretty savy consumer to recognize a fake booklet of supposed pedigree.
    Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.
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  3. #42
    Senior Member Leila12345666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    What exactly does registering mean? Papers, AKC registration...big deal. I did that with my Golden. Spent months looking for just the right situation and got a baby girl with beautiful, supposedly healthy, parents. Well, 5 years later she died from a heart defect. So stop being so high and mighty about the stupid papers. They don't mean much to me.
    Bringing a new puppy into your life is a big old game of chance. No guarantees. AKC...who cares? Anybody can make up a bunch of phony-looking papers. And it would take a pretty savy consumer to recognize a fake booklet of supposed pedigree.
    Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.
    You got most of what you said right and i agree. Except that last part. If you breed any kind of dog with a Poodle is NOT gurenteed you will get a dog that does not shed. And thats how they keep coming into this world, because people keep trying and trying and trying.
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  4. #43
    Senior Member Lorina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.
    Have you ever spent a day at a shelter loading the bodies of euthanized dogs into a crematorium? Do that for a while, and see if you don't think irresponsible breeding makes a difference.
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  5. #44
    Senior Member britishbandit's Avatar
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    No Kerry, I never said AKC registrations "makes" a dog. There's so much more to look for, CERF/OFA, pedigree. You should not base one bad experience, which was down to your own neglegence of not researching and knowing what to look for and what to stay away from. I'm sorry you had to go through this with your dog. I mentioned in my original post, stating even purebreds can be bred by BYB's with registration. Point being, mixes cannot be registered, and it is wrong for these "designer breeders" to state that they can be.

    And Lorina I agree. Kerry, if you stand so confidently behind your statement, got spend some time in a shelter where you get to see all these wonderful dogs being eutanized. Simply because, there's SO MANY being bred unethically. There aren't enough homes for them all, and thousands of pups being born daily. And since "designer breeders" are only out for a quick buck, to appleal to "consumer demand", where do you think the problem lies? Would you rather dogs be brought into this world with genetic testing and standards, or brought in with no standards, no idea of what disorders they'll take on or how they'll turn out?


    Something needs to be done somewhere to bring down the number of dogs euthanized each year. And I don't think it's those who do things ethically and responsibly.
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  6. #45
    Senior Member Snowshoe's Avatar
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    I am not a fan of hybrids. This is a Poodle Cockalier, and honestly, it's one of the cutest puppies I've ever seen in my life.

    I mean...this dog looks like a real life Fraggle.
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  7. #46
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    Granted many do come out looking cute...but that's not the reason to breed any dog (cause you will get cute pups). Many "cute" pups are sitting in the shelters hopefully waiting for a home, but very few get a new home - they get the table of death!

    How many times do we have to say it? Mixing a poodle with another breed does NOT guarentee the dog will not shed............geezzzzzzzzzzz
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  8. #47
    Senior Member Leila12345666's Avatar
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    To tell you the true Poodles mixes for me are the cutest dogs! But that does NOT mean one has to go out there and breed, breed and breed! And im not saying this because they DONT shed because some of them actually do. I was at Petsmart today and saw a white goldendoodle she was adorable. She was starting puppy kindergarden today. She was 9 weeks old.
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  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by britishbandit View Post
    I've personally never felt insulted in the least when I've owned a mix and had people call him a mutt. And I've always loved my mutts. It's true many people don't like the word, and I'll never understand why they feel "mixed breed" is more appropriate. Hey, my dogs are purebreds, and I even call them mutts sometimes....LOL....."oh you silly mutt!".

    I guess it's all in personal preference, if someone prefers I refer to their dog a mixed breed rather than a mutt, so be it, I will. Normally it doesn't come to that, I simply ask the dog's name, and call it by that rather than it's orientation.

    Really, what irks me more is online, when people say "pureBREADS", or don't know how to spell the name of the breed they actually own, I'll never understand that. LOL It's one thing to not know how to spell the name of a breed you aren't familiar with, but the breed you own? I can't even say how many times I've seen Chihuahua spelled "Chiwawa", or Dachshund spelled "Datshund/Dashound". I've even had fellow Rottweiler owners spell it "Rotweilder/Rotwilder/Rottwiller".......aarrgghhh! *pulls hair out* hahaha Hey, not everyone is the best speller in the world, and I make my mistakes at times, but when it's a word in my vocabulary I use often, I make sure it's spelled right.
    I agree. What to call mixes really doesn't matter all that much. I ran into one lady that insisted on calling them "blends" -- yea, whatever!!

    As for the spelling, I hear ya there too. I love when someone queries a rescue about a specific breed they'd like to adopt, but misspell the name. The follow-up question asking them if they are familiar with the breed seems a little silly. I think my favorite is Rockwilder. Or Awful Lhasa. Or, one I like to torture a friend with who's a Weimaraner rescue -- WireHammer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    What exactly does registering mean? Papers, AKC registration...big deal. I did that with my Golden. Spent months looking for just the right situation and got a baby girl with beautiful, supposedly healthy, parents. Well, 5 years later she died from a heart defect. So stop being so high and mighty about the stupid papers. They don't mean much to me.
    Bringing a new puppy into your life is a big old game of chance. No guarantees. AKC...who cares? Anybody can make up a bunch of phony-looking papers. And it would take a pretty savy consumer to recognize a fake booklet of supposed pedigree.
    Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.
    Responsible breeding is like building a wall of bricks. When you start leaving bricks out, the wall will fall. Now there's no absolute guarantee that the wall won't fall anyway if an earthquake hits, or the dam breaks, or a car runs into it. But the wall is much more likely to fall if it's built in a faulty manner.

    AKC/UKC papers are just one of the bricks. A responsible breeder makes sure all the bricks are used and are fitted properly in the wall.

    I'm truly sorry that you lost your dog at such a young age, but how did you know the parents were healthy? Did you just go by looks, or did they have all the indicated pre-breeding tests to help insure that they wouldn't pass on the diseases tested for? What about the grandparents? Was there ever any heart problems in the breeders whole line of dogs? Or did you possibly think that the papers were what indicated quality, and now are down on papers because that wasn't so?

    Again, papers don't indicate quality, but they are one of the bricks in the wall without which there can be no quality.
    Last edited by DogAdvocat; 01-21-2007 at 08:16 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Spay / Neuter - It stops the killing.
    Untrained does not mean untrainable.
    Boycott Pet Shops selling animals.
    Puppymill Mamas never have a nice day.
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  10. #49
    Senior Member Kerry's Avatar
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    I'm driving down a road and come to a house where the people are selling Yorkie puppies who were born from healthy Yorkie parents.
    Further down the road, people are using male poodles and female cocker spaniels....result: designer puppies.
    Families come to adopt all the adorable pups. But the ones who get the "designer" dogs are contributing to mass euthanasia of dogs in this country?
    Responsible breeders only do it to better the breed? Money has nothing to do with it. Hmmm. I find that a little hard to believe.
    Who should be allowed to breed their dog? I know who shouldn't. Those examples are obvious.
    By the way, my pup will be spayed and she sheds.
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  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.
    It may be that they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed, but like you, won't they be the first to complain when that cute shed-less dog develops a heart problem, or some other preventable problem? Both poodles and bichons are prone to eye problems including cataracts and luxated lens. Will the cuteness and non-shedding help them to feel better about their 8 year old dog that just went blind? Bichons are now showing up with CHD, even though they are a small breed. Poodles and bichons suffer from patellar luxation. Will that poodle/bichon mix have both hip dysplasia and bad kneecaps? And what happens when this cute shedless dog acquires all of these medical problems - will they just dump it in favor of another designer dog of a different breed? After all, if poodle/bichon didn't work, then maybe poodle/whatsis will be better? Does the fact that the ignorant public doesn't care about the integrity of breeding mean that there shouldn't be integrity in breeding? Are we to accept substandard quality simply because people don't understand what quality means?
    Spay / Neuter - It stops the killing.
    Untrained does not mean untrainable.
    Boycott Pet Shops selling animals.
    Puppymill Mamas never have a nice day.
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  12. #51
    Senior Member Kerry's Avatar
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    Thanks for the kind words about my dog who died. The breeder seemed wonderful, caring, knowledgeable. We waited for months, were told that the parents and grandparents were perfect and all her dogs had all the tests, went to visit with the mom, heard the stories about show winners and admired all the trophies.
    My point is just this: Any animal can have things wrong with it. I agree, of course, that puppy mills are awful and some people who sell puppies don't care about the animals.
    I honestly don't know what else I could have done when purchasing my Golden. Other than doing genetic testing myself, it all looked to be great and I thought I was being very careful. She was recommended by many people and made us go through a rigorous interview process.
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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Thanks for the kind words about my dog who died. The breeder seemed wonderful, caring, knowledgeable. We waited for months, were told that the parents and grandparents were perfect and all her dogs had all the tests, went to visit with the mom, heard the stories about show winners and admired all the trophies.
    My point is just this: Any animal can have things wrong with it. I agree, of course, that puppy mills are awful and some people who sell puppies don't care about the animals.
    I honestly don't know what else I could have done when purchasing my Golden. Other than doing genetic testing myself, it all looked to be great and I thought I was being very careful. She was recommended by many people and made us go through a rigorous interview process.
    I don't know Kerry. It's so hard to find a responsible breeder out there that I sometimes think that puppy buyers need mentors too - someone that can go with them to interview the breeder to make sure that everything is done right. There isn't a breeder out there that won't tell you that they are doing it the right way, and some of them are very good salespersons. It's a lot like pet shops that lie to people about where their dogs come from - like telling them that the dog comes from a breeder and not a puppymill - snowing people into believing that puppymills aren't breeders.

    I guess that's one of the many reasons that I'll always get a dog from a shelter or rescue, and stay as far away from breeders as possible.
    Spay / Neuter - It stops the killing.
    Untrained does not mean untrainable.
    Boycott Pet Shops selling animals.
    Puppymill Mamas never have a nice day.
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  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogAdvocat View Post
    I don't know Kerry. It's so hard to find a responsible breeder out there that I sometimes think that puppy buyers need mentors too - someone that can go with them to interview the breeder to make sure that everything is done right. There isn't a breeder out there that won't tell you that they are doing it the right way, and some of them are very good salespersons. It's a lot like pet shops that lie to people about where their dogs come from - like telling them that the dog comes from a breeder and not a puppymill - snowing people into believing that puppymills aren't breeders.

    I guess that's one of the many reasons that I'll always get a dog from a shelter or rescue, and stay as far away from breeders as possible.

    I am not quite sure why you think that this breeder was not good and responsible. I have a freind who bought a pup about a year ago. Was going to be a show dog that she was going to show. Both the pups parents when Champions and where tested for everything in that breed, I know this for a fact as my freind has copies of all the test results. Now the pup was having some problems seeing so my friend too the dog to the vet to have him checked. The dog has eye problems that both parents had been tested clear for. SO b/c her dog has this problem does that make her not a responsible or unknowlagble. She has been showing dogs all her life and breeding part of that time. She knows what to ask and what to look for. It just happends.

    Same thing happen to my neibors. They bought a German Shephard pup about a year and a 1/2 ago. Both parents had been certifed Excelant hips she too has copies of the papers. The dog was diagnosed with HD at a year. Again this person has been into dogs for years. she knows the questions to ask the papers to look at everything. She just was unlucky. Her dog feel into that 4%.

    Just b/c a dog has all its certifications does not garentee anything.

    Heidi
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  15. #54
    Senior Member Kerry's Avatar
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    Well, you're saving a life using a shelter. And there's no pretending...you really have no idea what you're getting. You just hope for the best.
    Here's a question that's sure to ruffle some feathers: Couldn't a pet store be viewed in the same way? I know, I know. It allows irresponsible breeders to continue. But what happens to puppies who aren't bought? They sort of need rescuing, don't they?
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  16. #55
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    I will say this. Now I know there may be one someplace close but I do not know where it would be but non of the pet stores around here sell any larger animals. Now some sell bird and fish reptiels and animals like that but no dogs or cats. Every pet store allows rescues to come in and set up. Some of the stores donate feed to the rescues and stuff like that.

    Heidi
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  17. #56
    Super Moderator Curbside Prophet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    But what happens to puppies who aren't bought? They sort of need rescuing, don't they?
    The puppies are most likely given away or sent to a shelter if they become to old to buy. However, most pet store owners will start dropping the price on a pup if it's in their shop for to long. However, every dollar that's given back to a pet shop owner who sells pups is another dollar (or reason) to continue buying pups from brokers, or BYB's, or puppymillers. These pups may suffer in the long run if their not bought, but let's not propogate the problem by buying them. How many pet store owners would sell pups if no one bought them? The answer's none, it's not good economics. I know, I know, you can't stop people from buying them. But do you want to be the person to propogate the problem? Do you want to reccommend to your family and friends and good pet store to buy pups? I would hope the sense guides the caring individual to an answer of NO!
    Last edited by Curbside Prophet; 01-21-2007 at 11:17 PM.
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  18. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post
    I am not quite sure why you think that this breeder was not good and responsible. I have a freind who bought a pup about a year ago. Was going to be a show dog that she was going to show. Both the pups parents when Champions and where tested for everything in that breed, I know this for a fact as my freind has copies of all the test results. Now the pup was having some problems seeing so my friend too the dog to the vet to have him checked. The dog has eye problems that both parents had been tested clear for. SO b/c her dog has this problem does that make her not a responsible or unknowlagble. She has been showing dogs all her life and breeding part of that time. She knows what to ask and what to look for. It just happends.

    Same thing happen to my neibors. They bought a German Shephard pup about a year and a 1/2 ago. Both parents had been certifed Excelant hips she too has copies of the papers. The dog was diagnosed with HD at a year. Again this person has been into dogs for years. she knows the questions to ask the papers to look at everything. She just was unlucky. Her dog feel into that 4%.

    Just b/c a dog has all its certifications does not garentee anything.

    Heidi
    I didn't say they weren't responsible. I said it's difficult to know because irresponsible breeders will lie. If every breeder says they are the responsible ones, then how is one to know which ones really are. It's certainly not unreasonable to assume that some of them take shortcuts but are aware of what should be done and tell people they've done it. Then there are the ones that claim xyz isn't necessary in their breed, and if the buyer doesn't know any better - then they really need a mentor of their own to be able to contradict the irresponsible breeder. People are advised to have a mechanic check a car before they buy it, because the car buyer is not an expert. I see no difference with dogs. It's important to do your homework before buying, but at a certain point, you have to either trust, or find someone that knows more to help.

    And yes, I know there's no real guarantees, even if the breeder offers one. A guarantee doesn't stop the dog from getting sick, it is just a contract stating what the breeder will do if it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Well, you're saving a life using a shelter. And there's no pretending...you really have no idea what you're getting. You just hope for the best.
    Here's a question that's sure to ruffle some feathers: Couldn't a pet store be viewed in the same way? I know, I know. It allows irresponsible breeders to continue. But what happens to puppies who aren't bought? They sort of need rescuing, don't they?
    Yes, it's a crap shoot no matter what you do. However, the dogs I choose from shelters are normally adults, and I feel less is hidden. For instance, if I adopt a 7-year-old dachshund that has passed the normal 6-year mark for developing back problems, then I can be pretty sure that it never will have back problems. If I adopt a 3-year-old golden retriever, then I can pretty much be sure that if it was going to develop CHD, it would have already done so. These are examples only, and if those were the breeds I was interested in, I'd do my homework to find out if those statistics were correct before choosing.

    As for pet stores, the main reason I'm against pet stores (and there are many reasons), is the puppymill mamas. Having rescued and lived with a few, I know what hell they went through. And while someone is "rescuing" a pet shop puppy, what they are really doing is making space for another puppy to take that puppy's place - which keeps that puppymill mama in her cage making more puppies. The only way to ever have puppymill mama liberation is to stop buying from pet stores and puppymills.

    And normally, what happens to puppies that aren't bought is the pet store reduces the price until they are bought. But while that is happening, it's costing the pet store money to maintain that puppy, and if it happens often enough, they will begin to see that it's not cost effective to keep selling puppies.
    Last edited by DogAdvocat; 01-21-2007 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Spay / Neuter - It stops the killing.
    Untrained does not mean untrainable.
    Boycott Pet Shops selling animals.
    Puppymill Mamas never have a nice day.
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  19. #58
    Senior Member britishbandit's Avatar
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    What I will say is that if you do get a puppy from a responsible breeder, and for some reason despite all the necessary testing develops a genetic problem, the breeder will go back and try and find where down the line this may have happened. The dogs will not be bred again for risk of producing more "inferior" dogs, and they will help you out with the cost of vet bills and be there for you no matter what. As I'm sure after so many years with the dog, you'd unlikely want to give it up even with the option of returning the dog to the breeder. I know I wouldn't be giving up my dog.
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  20. #59
    Super Moderator Curbside Prophet's Avatar
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    Another ya but to argue:

    Ya but, by breeding dogs to a detailed standard of appearance, show breeders seek to produce dogs who match a written Standard of Conformation (for example, eyes a certain shape). To get these details right, show breeders limit the gene pool even more by rejecting breeding stock who might be healthy and good-tempered, but who can't "deliver" in eye shape. Breeding to some standard is how breeds are developed in the first place, but eventually it results in loss of genetic diversity, which as we've said, leads to problems with health and vigor. Isnít there a need for new genes, and new breeds?
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  21. #60
    Senior Member britishbandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet View Post
    Isnít there a need for new genes, and new breeds?[/SIZE] [/FONT]
    Maybe so, but do you think that average dog owners should be the ones dabbling in it? I sure don't.
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