An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?
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Thread: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Xeph's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    I really think she's just a brindle sable, lol
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  3. #22
    Senior Member CptJack's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeph View Post
    I really think she's just a brindle sable, lol
    Yeah, looking at pictures:


    This dog is also a brindle sable.

  4. #23
    Senior Member Keechak's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeph View Post
    I really think she's just a brindle sable, lol
    I have never seen a brindled dog with such rich tan points that didn't show the brindling in the tan. Can you link to some more photos of brindle sables?

    Quote Originally Posted by CptJack View Post
    Yeah, looking at pictures:


    This dog is also a brindle sable.
    this puppy has very very light red(tan points) so it may be hiding the brindle, the puppy the OP posted has much darker tan points.
    Last edited by Keechak; 05-13-2013 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    More detailed images as requested. I apologize for these being lower quality, but I can't take photos with one hand with my SLR. Ha ha.




  6. #25
    Senior Member Kayota's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    I don't see any sabling on the undercoat but that's just me.

  7. #26
    Senior Member Laurelin's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaeganW View Post
    The only thing I can think of is brindle + grizzle. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/SalukiColor.html I can't find enough pictures of the combination to confirm, but it looks like grizzle prevents black hair from appearing in the points, which would confine the brindle stripes to the body.
    That is what I was going to say. This dog is not going to end up traditionally tan pointed (like a rottweiler).
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  8. #27
    Senior Member Adjecyca1's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Awesome looking puppy! so cute!
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  9. #28
    Senior Member Crantastic's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    I asked the person who runs the Dog Coat Colour Genetics site what she thought, and she said:

    My best guess would be grizzle/domino (Eg) with brindling. I'm struggling to find many decent pictures of brindle domino Afghans or Salukis (the only breeds where grizzle is currently known to exist), but here's one that shows the clear unbrindled points (these are diluted to white by urajiro, which only affects red pigment, so imagine them as tan instead): http://cynoanarchist.files.wordpress...23-12_0534.jpg

    Eg is on the same locus as recessive red (e), and recessive red dogs are unable to produce any black pigment at all. I suspect what's going on with grizzle is a "partial" recessive red effect, so no black can appear on the points but it can appear on the back. Kinda halfway between the "normal" E allele and the recessive red allele.
    All grizzles are genetically black-and-tans ("at" allele on A locus), but the Eg acts as a modifier.

    Only thing that doesn't fit is that the puppy in question has the traditional tan pattern whereas grizzle/domino puppies are born with more tan on the face (around the eyes, with a widow's peak). However, there is a similar pattern in some other breeds known as "creeping tan", where they are born black-and-tan and the tan recedes a little as the dog ages. I've seen this in breeds such as the Catahoula Leopard Dog. These dogs test positive for the "at" tan point gene (as do grizzles), so it's assumed that there is a separate modifier that causes the tan to recede. The modifier hasn't yet been located, but I wonder whether it is also on the E locus and works in the same way as grizzle. If so, the brindling would work the same

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  10. #29
    Junior Member DesertWindHounds's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crantastic View Post
    I asked the person who runs the Dog Coat Colour Genetics site what she thought, and she said:

    My best guess would be grizzle/domino (Eg) with brindling. I'm struggling to find many decent pictures of brindle domino Afghans or Salukis (the only breeds where grizzle is currently known to exist), but here's one that shows the clear unbrindled points (these are diluted to white by urajiro, which only affects red pigment, so imagine them as tan instead): http://cynoanarchist.files.wordpress...23-12_0534.jpg
    EG has been found in Silken Windhounds, Borzoi, and Chart Polski. There is a commercial test for it, so people have been testing their dogs, specifically in regards to EG modifying black.

    That particular Saluki does have some brindling on his face and legs (I am acquainted with the owner, I've seen many pics of him in different lighting.) He has a male smooth sibling that's almost identical. It does not just stop, it fades out. Almost all of the brindle grizzle Salukis I have seen have some brindling on the light parts, it's just very faint. This bitch is probably the cleanest looking:



    I have seen a very light brindle grizzle in Saudi that had very dark brindling just down the back, much like the above bitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crantastic View Post
    Only thing that doesn't fit is that the puppy in question has the traditional tan pattern whereas grizzle/domino puppies are born with more tan on the face (around the eyes, with a widow's peak).
    Grizzle Salukis often retain the bar down the nose and some schmutz around the eyes. On the left, black and tan (silver) and on the right, a grizzle.



    Afghan hounds rarely have the bar, and if they do, it tends to be very faint. A widows peak is far more typical for a domino Afghan. Brindle dominos typically have a good deal of brindling on the face and legs/feet. Sometimes the brindling is dense enough that the domino pattern is hard to discern.

    Black and tan itself is variable (these are just Salukis):




    I have also seen sable Salukis with such sharp markings they had a similar pattern on the face to a black and tan. Sables in Salukis sometimes have a widows peaks, as well and can be mistaken for a grizzle. Not to mention the grizzle bitch I saw a pics of that had no markings at all. DNA tested at/at EG, though

    This bitch is a brindle domino with the bar, but she is not a purebred Afghan:



    There are probably unknown modifiers affecting how EG affects the expression of other genes. EG modifies black into 'blue' in Afghans and an assortment of weird colors in Salukis. And in Afghans, dominos often have a 'blue' cast to the back, whereas grizzle Salukis are more reddish. EM 'negates' EG but EG will still affect expression of EM in Afghans, producing what is often called a 'high marked' black masked black and tan.

    I'm sorry these pics are all so big, I couldn't figure out how to make them smaller.

    Jess

  11. #30
    Senior Member Hambonez's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Bugs View Post
    push her coat back, is the coat tan under the black when you lift it? she appears to be black sable, but the coat is broken causing tan "strips" to show through

    this is Guinness, he is black sable, you can see where is coat is broken or clumped you see tan specks and lines through the black
    Is that what that's called?? Hamilton is totally black sable then. The tips of his fur are black and the rest of it is tan. The fur behind his ears is way longer than the rest of his coat and it's really light below the black tips. I really wonder what the heck my dog is...
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  12. #31
    Junior Member bellagirl's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    She is sssooo cute!

  13. #32
    Senior Member Keechak's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Bugs View Post
    push her coat back, is the coat tan under the black when you lift it?
    That can also be caused by a brown undercoat on a black tri dog.


  14. #33
    Senior Member Xeph's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Hairs need to be banded to be sable. A dog with a black tip of the hair shaft while the rest is tan is not sable
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  15. #34
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?



    Here's an update of her colour at 13 weeks

  16. #35
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Your girl looks a LOT like my new boy! Echo is a supposed shepherd/husky mix but I'm pretty sure he's got something else in there too. He's got very light (basically white) tan points, tan on his legs, a widows peak, and then what looks like heavy brindle on his back. His belly is the same as your girl's, sort of white with black stripes/spots. Most people have been saying 'partial brindle' but what exactly is that supposed to mean? I've been thinking maybe he's got the urajro (like in akitas) or maybe the grizzle. Definitely a mystery!

    8 weeks:

    12 weeks:

  17. #36
    Senior Member Kayota's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    i think its a little of both. that pup definitely has urajiro and could possible my grizzle as well.

  18. #37
    Senior Member d_ray's Avatar
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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    No clue but your pup is gorgeous and very striking.


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    Re: An odd brindle - can anyone explain my puppy's colour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayota View Post
    There's no way that pup is a sable, but the tan points not being brindled is so weird!
    Actually it is sable. Sable brindle (my dog is sable brindle with black masking ). The tan points are strange....

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