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Cesar Millan or Victoria Stilwell

47K views 405 replies 76 participants last post by  Crantastic 
#1 ·
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground when reading about these two. I can find positives with both personalities, but most people seem to be in one camp or the other. I'm curious to hear the opinions of people on this forum. Be sure to include why you feel the way you do.
 
#246 · (Edited)
Video of Barbara Woodhouse and William Shatner when he still looked like Captain Kirk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGjHf5-vQ6k

She is a old-school trainer. Seems like a nice lady, just with no idea at all about calming signals. Same with Cesar, at least Vicky (as my trainer calls her) can see a calming signal. I think THAT is the real differential in all of this. You either see the calming signals or you don't. Once you see them, you can't do the CM like thing. Heck I have trouble now petting Lucy and trying to do it in a way where she doesn't lick her lips. She is so on edge.

Once you see and understand calming signals, the rest follows. Especially if you equate a calming signal to meaning something the dog finds uncomfortable. I wonder if that is cisco's problem, or rather if that is why the CM promoters can still see him in a good light (they don't see the calming signals).

Monty
 
#249 ·
Most people who think Rottweilers are big tough dogs that require rough handling...have never owned a rottie. Every one I've met that was raised in a loving home is a big ball of gooey lovebug. It's likely pitbulls and bully breeds get into so much trouble because they have such an overwhelming desire to please their people...even if those people are mistreating them and training them to dog fight.

Just because a dog may look big and tough does not mean it doesn't have a tender heart, or isn't easily scared.
 
#255 ·
like the breed makes any difference when it comes down to specific problems. A resource guarder is a resource guarder. It may feel badass to talk about PITS AND ROTTS but it isn't.
Yes indeed, it does limit one's experience when dealing with just one or two breeds. I'm behind in the dog bite program, have been bit a number of times but never by a Rott or Pitt.
 
#265 ·
For the guys who want me to provide a photo or something of the 50+ walk thing, please watch when his episodes reaches the rehab. I admit the 50 thing could be a miscount or exaggeration. I think the most he's skated with at a time was 20 Pitbulls (Emily episode) and there where other episodes of a mixture of Pit's and Rotts. I know a few who actually seem still rollerblading with more than 10 dogs.

I find it funny that the responses towards this was about how Rotts/Pitts can be sweet when raised right or something. lol
 
#268 ·
Yes. . .you can just see him being a jerk without hearing his justifications :D.
 
#271 ·
The mute thing is one of the dumbest things brought up.. That's like saying "take away a piece of reality you will see it's wrong". This is making a theoretical suggestion. But then again, you people still refuse to let go of the fact the touches are not as physically strong so this is a bad argument for any of you. When i mute the show, i don't see a jerk i see a disciplinarian working all the way to assure a positive result. The results already eliminate the "jerk" thing anyway, if the results are positive then the person wasn't a jerk.

What's wrong with all of you? You guys are so focused on a spot instead of the entire thing as in the main root to the final success? Where is the common sense of the "problem - the trial - the outcome"? The truth is, you people are saying i should ignore the entire picture with this mute thing and how it makes the "trial" part look like bullying. And Xeph thinks thats a win? haha
 
#333 ·
No the majority of forums i've been to were populated by men.. but yes women have a unique sensitivity which is understandable. I don't see CM's techniques to be damaging, and i think that it is false unless it is performed wrong and none of the philosophies are in them. Just read the link..
I might be a little biased ... But I think this ^^^ is why women make better trainers.

Anyway humans lack the timing it takes to correct a dog in dogish. Why do that when there is another way they is more error proof they is still easily understood by the dog? If CM really knew his stuff he would let his "pack" correct bad bahavior of other dogs but he wants to be the referee, thus he makes a lot of work for himself.

True "alphas" don't insert themselves in scuabbles btw the middle class the lower dogs on the totem pole are the ones who squabble with each other, true self assured dogs / leaders don't do this.

Even if CM was a good trainer (which he is not) I wouldn't use him soley based on his views/opinions of women
 
#338 ·
Yes you all have been silly women who can't get the difference between discipline and abuse and have exaggerated the whole "dominance" techniques as to some form of bullying. What makes you all silly is that you are still insisting to take notice of one part of the picture you really have no care for the entire.

Now you guys are giving "she/he's an actress" for some reason having a tv show is a minus now to credentials. None of you realize how dumb that argument is? Victoria and Cesar became famous and got tv shows for a reason they were not just random pics, why pic them over other trainers you claim are better?

Cesar Millan is not a behaviorist, just an FYI. To actually be a behaviorist you have to have a degree, lol.
Emily this is dumb. For things like dog behavior, you can actually be an expert if you were well exposed to it before HS level onwards. I guess i shouldn't call Bill Gates a computer tech due to him not having a degree.

I might be a little biased ... But I think this ^^^ is why women make better trainers.
Anyway humans lack the timing it takes to correct a dog in dogish. Why do that when there is another way they is more error proof they is still easily understood by the dog?
Maybe because those owners sent those dogs to trainers already that failed and suggested euthanasia as an option? We saw that in those episodes.

If CM really knew his stuff he would let his "pack" correct bad bahavior of other dogs but he wants to be the referee, thus he makes a lot of work for himself.
Because the way dogs correct bad behavior is violent that is why he referee's. Again, dog corrections involve growling, biting.. these things eventually become fights. You just threw away credibility with what i quoted here.. you are suggesting that he allows his dogs to correct the aggressive behavior of a dog?

Cesar uses his dogs to see/understand the type of dog he is dealing with. Just like in that one episode where he shows his client aggressive dog through the other side of the gate just to see what reaction his pack gets. Or that episode where Junior was still a pup and chose to keep his distance from the client dog.. stuff like that. But using his dogs to correct bad behavior is dumb and will lead to a dog getting hurt. However, you just brought out one of the things that i admired from Cesar, was how he used his pitbulls to help allot of dogs out. It was great that the decade finally had a positive pitbull rep who were not only docile but helpers.
True "alphas" don't insert themselves in scuabbles btw the middle class the lower dogs on the totem pole are the ones who squabble with each other, true self assured dogs / leaders don't do this.

Even if CM was a good trainer (which he is not) I wouldn't use him soley based on his views/opinions of women
Your "true alpha" thing was just.. nevermind. Now Millian is being given accusations of being a sexist. Well, I never heard him saying anything bad about women to be upset about nevertheless we are on the topic of Dog treating anyway. it's irrelevant. If you don't want to use him soley based on your feelings because of what his "views" of women are, that's your business.

@emily, there is nothing wrong with touches for correction. i don't care as to where you have been trying to go with this whole mother dog mimicry thing. It's not a wrong or unintelligent method anyway. You are being silly. :)
 
#275 ·
Google "Dudebro." Then all this makes much more sense.

The CM and Monks of New Skete style dominance theory methods do seem to appeal more to those for whom appearing macho is a major concern. These are the same sorts of people who prefer certain breeds over others because they feel they enhance their masculinity. They need to feel they are "dominating" their dogs rather than cooperating with their dogs because anything resembling "nuturing" is too feminine and therefore "soft" and feminizing.

Those of us who use positive reinforcement are labeled as "soft" or "sensitive," but in reality, we simply are secure enough in who we are that we can use whatever training methods are proven to work best rather than having our egoes tied up in our dogs...and our dominion over them.

This same type has to wear the "tap out" shirts and drive a bigger truck than the next guy or a sportscar. The dog is just another way for him to project his masculinity, out of insecurity.

Bro...
 
#282 ·
They also need to run or rollerblade with 50+* "aggressive" pits and rotties. Don't forget that. That is super important.





*50+ may be an exaggeration. May be closer to 10.
 
#279 · (Edited)
taq. i have not ignored any of your replies. Please don't give that "you haven't replied to # of my replies so you have no rebuttal". I have refuted allot of what you gave. read my latest reply to Crantastic on the sum up of the arguments because some of that contains your arguments. I back CM up because it's not a wrong method. There is nothing wrong about using touches instead of food to correct your dog because the touches are not harmful. Look at mexico, the philippines, japan and how good their dogs are in majority, the popular method in those countries is that eastern method.

@thosewordsatbest, do you see the topic title? So in short we are comparing TV shows additionally. The TV shows reflect Millan's success.
 
#285 · (Edited)
taq. i have not ignored any of your replies. Please don't give that "you haven't replied to # of my replies so you have no rebuttal". I have refuted allot of what you gave. read my latest reply to Crantastic on the sum up of the arguments because some of that contains your arguments. I back CM up because it's not a wrong method. There is nothing wrong about using touches instead of food to correct your dog because the touches are not harmful. Look at mexico, the philippines, japan and how good their dogs are in majority, the popular method in those countries is that eastern method.
Ummm people don't use dominance in Japan lol. Neither do they in other East Asian countries (i.e. China, Korea). Trust me. I'm Korean, and I lived in China for almost a decade lol. No one believes in the CM stuff. Most trainers are more the VS style (minus attitude towards their clients lol).

And you didn't contribute anything at all to what I have written. Your "rebuttals" weren't rebuttals. They were just cheap jabs with nothing constructive. From MY experience with bully breeds (I foster rescues), positive reinforcement works MUCH better than the CM style stuff. I get dogs that were basically f*cked up by their owners who USED such methods on them. I gave you a concrete example of my last foster who started to shut down, and became fearful due to CM-esque methods. All you wrote was that you found it strange how a dog shuts down with such methods when the breed is notorious for its stubbornness referring to police officers shooting them to subdue them??? How is that an appropriate response, I wonder? Completely different situations, and different issues lol.

They're not rebuttals if you haven't deconstructed the other's argument, and especially if you can't provide more depth into your argument.

ETA:
You also can't generalize how well behaved a nation's worth of dogs are lol. No, the majority are not better behaved than in North America. Where on earth would you get such an idea? Do you have statistics to prove this?
 
#281 ·
Cisco, I respect your opinion, but I have to say, if your posts made a lot of sense as you say, you'd at least have a couple of us acknowledging it.

Someone is missing the point. Either it's you or EVERYONE else.

My simple take on this whole ordeal is that positive training can do everything that CM's techniques can do, but better, without the risk to the owner and stress to the dog. And positive training involves real, scientifically supported understanding of animal behavior as opposed to CM's invented silliness.
 
#298 ·
Cisco, I respect your opinion, but I have to say, if your posts made a lot of sense as you say, you'd at least have a couple of us acknowledging it.

Someone is missing the point. Either it's you or EVERYONE else.
I was going to say something like this earlier. cisco, there ARE a few Cesar fans on this forum, and at least a few people who don't love him but don't totally hate him, either. Even they don't want to come in here and agree with you, because your argument is so nonsensical that it would make them look bad by association.

Kirsten is right, too. It's been many pages now, and not one person has agreed with anything you've said. It's unlikely that it's us with the problem. It's time to look at your posts and ask yourself, "Am I stating my opinions clearly? Am I providing real evidence to back up my claims?"
 
#290 ·
Since when is Mexico part of the "east?" If you're going to claim CM's methods are derived from some sort of cross-pollination of dog training methods from "Asian countries" to the Phillipines, then Mexico, please provide specific sources for that and explain exactly how that progression of cross-cultural techniques came about. I don't think even CM is trying to claim his methods evolved from some kind of Shao-Lin style monk dog training.

Bro..."self-owned?" I would assume most human beings capable of accessing the Internet ARE self-owned. Slavery does still sadly exist in this world, but most slave owners stubbornly refuse those they own leisure time on Internet forums.
 
#294 ·
Lol I just come to this for a laugh now.

Honestly ... If I do watch CM it's for ... Eye candy cuz I kinda think he's cute LMBO. But free a few minutes his down talking to & about women starts to ticks me off so that's when I either turn the sound off or change it.

One episode sticks with me ... Anyone see the one wih "buddy" that horribly fear aggressive brindle bully mix? What if you had a dog like that ... What would you do? I son know what I would do ... He was fine with the family but fear aggressive to anyone else.
 
#299 ·
I love how anything can be claimed to be "Eastern." So what, exactly is "Eastern" about CM's methods and what do you define as "Eastern?" Buddhist philosophy stresses non-aggression in regards to all beings, including dogs. Taoism stresses balance. CM compared to a martial arts Sensei? Um, ok, what animal trainer or behaviorist served as his master? What tradition does he follow?

CM's methods are VERY Western. The idea of dominance being an issue between humans and dogs dates back to Western research that was done on captive wolves and later disproven and was propagated through Western animal trainers like the Monks of New Skete. Don't blame this on the "East." (There is a wide diversity among Asian cultures, far too much to fit your generalizations.)

Your insecurity in your own masculinity is not your dog's fault, nor will it be resolved by bullying your dog. Education and maturity may help. I know it has for me and I don't worry about my dogs taking over my authority anymore. I just worry about failing to be the teacher and protector they deserve.
 
#301 ·
The "energy" information he gives. Like i said, allot of it sounds so tai-chi like. Nevertheless, the techs are a mixture from instinctual to western methods but the philosophy is that of eastern like teachings.

There is no bullying in those methods, please refrain those exaggerated terms that came from your high sensitive interpretation of cesar's actions. There is nothing immature or less in education of it.
 
#303 ·
Kinda like Cesar, no?
 
#306 · (Edited)
Since this debate will likely never end... the rate it's going. I will give my last piece of my thoughts.

I recommend methods such as the suggested "positive method" but i don't reject Cesar Millan. I support it and consider it a positive method. The accusations of him bullying, flooding, intimidation, shut downs, and the exaggerations of his physical touches are dumb and only given such exaggerations because people are sensitive about methods of discipline and don't have the sense to determine the difference between discipline and abuse. Just like how there are people who think spanking a child in the butt regardless of it cursing or bullying at the age of 7 is guilty of child abuse..

I think the hate towards CM is not only invalid but unintelligent because it is fact that he has saved the lives of many dogs; dogs who were even given a pass for euthanasia by experts. This is not only evident in his show, but the proof of success can be seen in the forum section of his website. People can make all their claims about how cesar's methods are harmful and how sadistic/barabaric it is, but the results show the positivity. Instead of looking at a certain part of the picture look at the ENTIRE picture: "Problem-Trial-Outcome". People can reference all these other experts and how they are better (and no one denies that these experts have their knowledge) but they do not have the number of visible proof backing them up as to what Cesar does with his DW episodes and the comments from people who got his help. If the people here want to plug their ears and yell "lalala" about that being facts, i know that the people here who are likely lurking will have an easier time finding an amount of evidence including video evidence for that.

In terms of the topic on CM vs VS, CM is a much superior person in helping your dogs. Victoria is a great trainer who's methods i would suggest over cesar due to it being "methods for dummies" as seen in her show where 99% of the cases where average cases. You can find many videos of her too and one of them talks about the yes and no's and how it will even help the red zone dogs. Yet when she finally runs into those type of red zone dogs having problems that were common towards the guy she bashed, she had no other recommendation than to put the dog to sleep. The dog being a Cocker Spaniel with food aggression. So if that was a case where she threw in the towel and went "put the dog down" imagine if she was the one contacted for Jonbee the random stray Jindo, Oscar the pitbull, Holly the food aggressive Lab, Bucky the aggressive adopted pitbull with a high abused past, or Francis the GSD?

Fact is, people can make all these claims about CM being some sort of inhumane handler but that man has shown to give all effort in helping the dog stay alive. Even if his methods can cringe "sensitive" people it's the bigger picture that matters, which is logical for anybody reasonable. The bigger the problem, the harder the trial - the more bold the necessities are- and the greater the outcome. If a massive problem ends in a great outcome, then what ever was needed to be done during the trial was reasonably necessary.
 
#309 ·
Since this debate will likely never end... the rate it's going. I will give my last piece of my thoughts.
Do you really mean it this time? ;)

I recommend methods such as the suggested "positive method" but i don't reject Cesar Millan. I support it and consider it a positive method. The accusations of him bullying, flooding, intimidation, shut downs, and the exaggerations of his physical touches are dumb and only given such exaggerations because people are sensitive about methods of discipline and don't have the sense to determine the difference between discipline and abuse.
...Okay, except that several of us on this thread used to actually use those methods, so... did we suddenly become "sensitive," or did we start reading and learning and realize that his techniques aren't the best way to train a dog? Food for thought.

As for the flooding, intimidation, shut down... that stuff is glaringly obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of dog calming signals and avoidance behaviors.

People can reference all these other experts and how they are better (and no one denies that these experts have their knowledge) but they do not have the number of visible proof backing them up as to what Cesar does with his DW episodes and the comments from people who got his help. If the people here want to plug their ears and yell "lalala" about that being facts, i know that the people here who are likely lurking will have an easier time finding an amount of evidence including video evidence for that.
Why are you putting it on the lurkers to find that? If it's easy to find, why don't you find it? Posting some evidence would really improve your argument.

And it's laughable that you consider Cesar better than people like Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell, who have spent years helping hundreds of dogs, just because you see Cesar on TV.

Yet when she finally runs into those type of red zone dogs having problems that were common towards the guy she bashed, she had no other recommendation than to put the dog to sleep.
Like I said earlier, the cocker spaniel was not the only aggressive dog she dealt with. Can you even provide other examples of her failing with a dog like that? I'm getting the impression that that's the only episode you ever watched, if you even watched that.

The bigger the problem, the harder the trial - the more bold the necessities are- and the greater the outcome. If a massive problem ends in a great outcome, then what ever was needed to be done during the trial was reasonably necessary.
First: The outcome is not great 20% of the time (at least).

Second: This is just not true. Positive training can cure resource guarders. It can drastically improve and help manage human aggression and dog aggression. It works better than harsh techniques that force the dog to suppress its desires. It is not necessary to react to an aggressive dog with harsh techniques. I know you'll never believe this because you need to see training unfolding on a flashy TV show to believe that it's happening, but the good behaviorists I have discussed in this thread have staked their reputations and careers on improving the situation of dogs that are just as bad as, if not worse than, anything you've seen on TV. Read a book by one of them. If you want to come back and argue after that, I'll be around.
 
#308 ·
Your argument of those clients signing an agreement can be consider a random slander
Bologna. And, in this case, it would be libel, as this is all written, not spoken. It's a moot point (that's right, moot, not mute), like most of your "arguments".
 
#311 ·
The majority of people you have "argued" with are indeed female. That said, calling people "bro" in the context you have been really just reeks of disrespect in general.
 
#315 ·
Your "facts" where all refuted, sorry. In fact, you guys couldn't even provide visible material for results of higher cases so you are all about word of gossip only. But if you all want to continue the false accusations of "abuse" that's all up to you.

Anyway, the link shouldn't be ignored due to the choice of remaining close minded and yapping against a method out of ignorance and just high sensitivity.

PS: Defense is the american english spelling, while in Oz, Uk it's spelled as Defence. lol *facepalm

outie
 
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