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neutering and crate training, really?

10K views 111 replies 45 participants last post by  InkedMarie 
#1 ·
Hello all, let's get the discussion going.
We are all familiar with the pro's and con's of these two highly recommended practices. So far, it seems that the most conclusive arguments for both of them lie in how awfully convenient they are for humans, either by modifying unwanted behavior by removing sexual glands and controlling stray populations, or by preventing destructive behavior and facilitating potty training by caging the animal. While these practical advantages are obvious, I fail to see how the best interest of the dog is considered. Agreed, dogs are very adaptable animals and will live the life they know, I don't think that they become miserable, but I also think that they could live more fulfilling lives by not being castrated or caged 8 hours a day.
Statistics show health benefits both for neutered and intact dogs, so let's try to not settle this debate with technicalities or quoting blogs. (They will most likely draw attention from the fact that hormones are a determining part in brain development, behavior and life of any animal.) As for the crating thing, I just don't buy the "they love it" and "its a den", they are just trained and accept their caged reality.
I want to read what you think, am I missing something? do you agree that most of what surrounds these issues is a lot of self righteousness and convenient justification of what better suits us (humans)?

P.S. I'm not against neutering or spaying, and I'm not against crates for training or convenience over short periods of time or travelling, It's just that I don't delude myself into thinking is the 'best' for dogs.
 
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#32 ·
Yeah pretty much agreeing with most of the posts already made here - it really depends on the people too. Most people can't handle intact animals, or atleast be responsible for them, so yes - its a convenience thing for humans that want to be able to not have to worry about their dog impregnating or becomming pregnant and dealing with that, and also there are far too many dogs in shelters because of the fact people are too lazy, or perhaps can't afford, or perhaps think its cruel to spay/neuter their dog and they think they are responsible enough but..nope. Myself personally.. I have an issue with dogs being spay/neutered before they reach full maturity. My Shiba was neutered at 2.5 years and although I feel I neutered Thumper a little too early for my liking (8.5 months) I did it only this soon because he is going to a new boarding facility for my upcoming vacation that accepts intact and altered dogs and becuase I do not know the people and their facility I'm not sure how well I can trust them to not somehow accidentally let my almost 9 month old (that may be able to successfully breed - I dont know) into an environment with maybe a heat female - ya just never know. So I decided to get him done prior to his stay there. If this vacation didn't come up, I would wait until he was a year old atleast to neuter, and this is just a personal thing. There can most definitley be health risks associated with spaying/neuter dogs but I think its even worse if they are done too early before they mature physically/sexually.

Crates - Personally I am not a fan either. Again this definitey works more into the human convenience but also the dogs safety and I think that if people want to cohabitate with dogs then in some cases they have to be confined when unsupervised - if not, then they would likely end up in shelters and potentially PTS because they destroy everything. Its unfortuante but its the way it is. I dont think its cruel, and I also dont think our dogs will love us any more or less than if they are crated or not crated.

My Shiba lived his first 2.5 years at a kennel, being a breeding/show dog and in a crate most of the days. He actually really likes being in a crate - but I dont crate him. He has a crate in the bedroom which I've removed the door off of, which he choosed to sleep in when he pleases, but other then that he gets full roam of the entire house while we are gone. He prefers to go upstairs and ly in his crate when he needs some peace and quiet or some space. If he's not sleeping in the bed at night, he sleeps in his crate. I don't bring the crate along with us when we travel, he either sleeps with us or on the floor.

Thumper on the other hand - well he's 9 months old and can't FULLY be trusted to roam the house yet, however, I crate trained him from day 1 at 7.5 weeks old and it really helped with puppy training. However we are slowly abandoning it. I dont like the thought of him being couped up in a crate all day while I"m at work, so I bought a large pen, which would be suitable to contain a dog the size of a great dane - its 4 feet high (with a roof), 4 feet long and 4 feet wide. Thumper is 45 lbs and isn't much taller than my knees - so I feel a bit better about him being in that all day as opposed to a small crate in which he is limited to ly down in all day. He can stand straight up in this one, move around, stretch out, play, etc. At night time he is allowed to sleep on the bed with us on weekends, as he hasn't learned that waking up in the middle of the night to give us sloppy kisses while were asleep is unnacceptable - so we don't allow him on weeknights when were working. However I have allowed him to sleep on the floor beside the bed, but again, sometimes he wakes up and thinks he can jump in the bed and wake us up. So he's in his smaller crate beside the bed at night, which I have now gotten to the point where I can leave the kennel door wide open all night and he doesn't come out until the morning when I say "Okay - outside". I have been able to leave Thumper unsupervised with full reign of the house for small periods of time without him destroying anything or having accidents, but definitely not ready to allow him full reign of the house at 9 months old for 9-10 hours a day. Eventually though I'm hoping he will and we will pretty much completely abandone the crate with him too. But for now, its for his safety and the well being of my house and sanity lol.
 
#33 ·
Btw, I do know what sex hormones do in dogs, and in people for that matter. I know so much about it that I know it's not that big a deal to not have them in adult dogs once the growth plates are closed. Do your research.
Amaryllis, I totally agree!

I'm genuinely curious about how the OP raises and trains his dogs, since he seems to have strong feelings re: the negatives of human interference/human convenience in dogs' lives, especially over crating and spaying/neutering. OP... how do you feel about other human conveniences we inflict upon on our dogs, such as teaching obedience training, wearing collars/harnesses/ID tags, getting our dogs microchip implants, having our dogs fed at certain points of the day due to work schedules, etc.-? Or those who have working breeds but don't use them for the purposes for which they were bred...? Are those types of human interferences okay?

Jen
 
#34 ·
Such a fun thread...where do I start?
Spaying/Neutering...my personal preference is to get it done. I choose this for many reasons, it calms the dog down, they don't want to wander as much, I'm doing my share to reduce over population and last but not least I believe that medically its best for them(I've seen to many that got cancer because they weren't fixed and in some cases fixing them helped)
Crate Training...I've had many dogs and I refused for a long time to use a crate, but I tried it with my golden retriever a couple years ago. I did everything the way it was suppose to be done--small crate to reduce accidents, letting out every hour, then two hours, etc and he was trained completely by 12 weeks..he has never had an accident since then. I did keep the crate up until he was six months and he went in there and slept on his own as did my 7 year old dog too...it was their own little area. Eventually the crate came down until I recently got the german shepherd puppy. She is taking a little longer to train but I believe she'll be out of the cage completely by the time she's one. If I had the room I would have three crates up because I know they would sleep in them, with the door open. So crate training is not meant to be permanent..its training and used as a tool to potty train and protect a puppy from eating stuff that it shouldn't when its on its own.
 
#36 ·
It should also be mentioned that many people got their dogs from shelters and rescues. In most, if not all, states, it is the law that shelters and rescues cannot give out unaltered dogs. Again, this is because of the serious dog overpopulation problem in the US. Many of us had no choice in whether or not to neuter our dogs, although I think most would have anyway.

I think the OP is coming from a country that does not have nearly the dog overpopulation problem of the US and rather than attempting to understand what the situation is in other countries, he's convinced we're all living in his situation and we're just lazy and that's why we neuter. There's also the issue of working. Many european countries find our work schedules appalling because they have better labor laws that allow for shorter work weeks, longer lunches and more vacation time. In the US, you're lucky if you get to work 10 hours a day without sick days. Lots of people don't even have jobs. So we can't take our long lunch to check on the dog or go home 4 hours later. We just don't live like you do, OP.

Instead of accusing us of selfishly mutilating our dogs to serve our own convenience, why not try to see where we're coming from? I love my dog. He eats better than I do, gets the finest medical care, gets walked even when I'm tired and in pain, even when it's pouring down sleet. I brush his teeth and pay for grooming and have his ears cleaned every 2 weeks. He lives a far better life than I do, and will until he dies. Don't accuse me of being a bad dog owner. Don't you dare.
 
#38 ·
Also, I think, the dog laws are stricter in Europe. Around here, a lot of dogs are tied up in an unfenced area or left alone in a fenced yard. If my unneutered male got out at a time when a lot of the trailer park dogs were in heat, he could knock up 5 or 6 of them in an afternoon. I'm not going to be responsible for that. And what would I do if the owners of the females made me take care of the puppies? In an area where the dogs are kept confined where a loose male wouldn't do much damage, it would be different.

I do prefer an intact male. . .but I'm an average dog owner; my dogs have gotten out a few times despite my best efforts at keeping them contained (the vast majority of dog owners have had a dog get loose at some point). Of course it's always bad for a dog to get loose, but if they weren't fixed it could be a lot worse. I plan to ask vets about vasectomy for my next male, but if I can't find a vet who does that I will have him neutered. I just can't have a fertile pet.
 
#39 ·
I was about to chime in with what Amaryllis already noted: many of us got our dogs from rescue organizations or shelters, and they don't adopt out unaltered dogs. Biscuit came to us at 7 months having just been spayed, and I'm fine with that. I would probably have done it a little later if it was up to me, but I hardly think her quality of life has been affected by any of this. I think she's just happy to be in a happy, safe, loving home with lots of food and attention. The state of her reproductive organs isn't a factor.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I will never understand why crate training is considered a bad thing.

The crate was the ONE thing that used to make Wally even feel secure. He knew he had a sanctuary he could go in if he felt over-stimulated, and I would just let him go. In fact "go crate" became one of his favorite cues then, especially if he was trying to keep it together, but I see him shaking and shivering...I'd say "go crate" and he'd happily go, sigh, and calm down. To this day, "go crate" solicits a happy and energetic response. He LOVES the crate.

Why would I want to deny him that? Just so I can say I don't "overuse the crate"? Wally's psychological well-being trumped any of that, and with as fearful as he was, I wasn't going to screw around or undo our early, fragile progress.

The door is open, he can come out if he wants, but if he's sleeping peacefully and all comfy, why disturb him? For the sake of "not overusing the crate"? It's Wally's den, he can go in and out and use it as much or as little as he wants. At night, whether I'm there or not, it's up to him.

Just because something can be potentially abused doesn't mean the thing has zero merits whatsoever.
 
#41 ·
And if you own a dog-on-dog resource guarder who considers scent and light beams to be worth protecting, and that dog wants to be the same room as her people and pack at ALL times, how would I go about eliminating the crate? Her crate lets her chill with us and with our other dogs without stress and drama. Oh, and she loves it.

Take away my crate, and tell me how many people are lined up to rehome my very high-drive, dog-dog RG pit bull to?
 
#42 ·
The reason I question (inherently dislike? Although I have nothing against those who use it for the sake of necessity) crating and crate training is because there are so many countries (at least here in Europe) where this tool is pretty much unheard of/unknown and yet, people manage to go around their lives with their dogs without major trouble. Perhaps it's that I never used and never will use a crate (though, then again, my family has only owned a dog and were blessed with remarkably few issues), but I'd like to understand why/how so many millions of owners outside the US manage to do just fine without a crate while from what I've read here, this is an essential thing?
 
#45 ·
There are millions of people in America who don't use a crate and have never considered using one and have done fine that way (or have not done fine that way). This forum is not exactly a representative sample. Similarly, the fact that you believe that everyone you know who has a dog that isn't crate trained has never had any problems that could have been avoided/mitigated via crate training doesn't by any means mean that that's the case throughout Europe. As they say, "data" is not the plural of "anecdote."
 
#46 · (Edited)
This I understand and am perfectly fine with (though it's not that common here, our family's dog was never crate trained, yet had no issues ever going to the vet or staying at a dog hotel). I was questioning those who keep their dogs for hours on end in a crate because they either don't have time for it or are not home to 'control' the dog. It's something I'm not comfortable with. I would not lock my cats away when I'm gone in fear of them scratching the furniture, if anything, I'd confine them to their large private room, same goes for a dog, at least, in my opinion.

There are millions of people in America who don't use a crate and have never considered using one and have done fine that way (or have not done fine that way). This forum is not exactly a representative sample. Similarly, the fact that you believe that everyone you know who has a dog that isn't crate trained has never had any problems that could have been avoided/mitigated via crate training doesn't by any means mean that that's the case throughout Europe. As they say, "data" is not the plural of "anecdote."
I am sure that there are owners who've had problems that could have been fixed with training, my point was that, as far as I can read (in several non-English forums, etcetera) the majority of them has not. I never meant to imply that owners never had any troubles at all. But, having read through several threads here, I just feel that the two different opinions (on this forum and on the others I frequent) rather contradict themselves, which is why I posted above.
 
#44 ·
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, so I'll try to keep it brief.

I have a five month lab, and I didn't crate train her because it was convenient (though it certainly is). I crate trained her because I want her to live a long, happy, healthy life and being kept safe while I can't supervise her is part of that. Because I took the time to train her, she can stay at a friend's house when I have to leave town for my brother's wedding instead of being boarded. She can come with me this summer when I rent a cottage with my friends. I don't view crate training as a crutch. I don't think I abuse it. She sleeps in hers overnight, and spends maybe 3-4 hours in one at work when it's not safe for her to be out. Crate training has opened doors for us that would have otherwise remained closed.

The idea that I'm not a committed owner because she's crate trained and I plan to spay her when she's old enough is insulting. I spend 20-24 hours a day with her within four feet of me, I work a job where I'm not appreciated and underpaid because I get to bring her. I have changed my whole life to fit this dog, and I'm loving every minute of it. So I get a little offended when someone flat out says I'm not committed enough to teach her house rules.
 
#47 ·
Damnath, what do you consider a 'crate'? Just a crate or would an x-pen or kennel be the same thing?

I think when you've only had one dog it's easy to make assumptions that all dogs will work the same way. I've had 13 dogs and it wasn't until my thirteenth that I got a dog that could never be left alone loose. She's three years old, by the way, so not a puppy. Even a dog safe room turned out to not be so dog safe for her- she pulled up the flooring. When she was a pup she had to be crated. Now that she's 3 she's graduated to a bigger indoor kennel (it's approx 5 x6). And this is a very small dog I'm talking about! While my past dogs all graduated out of needing confinement, I doubt I will ever trust Mia on her own. She thinks way too much.
 
#50 · (Edited)
To me a crate is basically a metal/wire cage slightly bigger than the dog's size. Anything bigger than that is awesome and I definitely agree with keeping dogs confined within rooms (ours was trained not to leave the kitchen and hall area of the house), not in cages.

And I understand this, I never meant to imply that crating meant that the dog was not trained, it just conflicts with what I've previously read on other forums. And I supposed that, personally (not trying to judge anyone, seriously) if I had a dog THAT needed to be isolated/crated for several hours a day, I would rather re-home the dog to a more appropriate situation (where the owners would have more time for it, a bigger confinement space, etc.) than keep it as it is. But like I mentioned before, it's something that I've been taught since I was little and it's a bit difficult to override the thinking of crates as bad things.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Yeah, I am getting a bit tired of the (not so) subtle "if you have your dog in a crate then they are obviously not trained" undertones in some of the posts here (and in other threads on the topic).... If that's the case, then I'd rather my dogs not be trained, I guess. At least then they are all safe and happy when I return home from wherever I am.

Also, how many dogs at a time do most people have? I have three and will most likely have a fourth within the next couple of years. I wish I could have multiple rooms devoted to my dogs! But the reality is that I can't - especially since I need a room for the ferret (it's her room + my office) - so it makes more sense to me to have them crated. It's not like they don't sleep for most of the day anyway.
 
#53 ·
Since I am not very knowledgeable with crates (and have never seen any in real life), this is what I think when someone mentions the word:



Obviously, this is a rather large one, for a large dog, but the dog itself doesn't has much space to move inside, which is definitely not the same as having a whole room to roam.

Again, I am trying to understand the use of crates and whatnot, but feel like I am being targeted for disliking them? I have not been rude, I believe, and am very accepting of other's opinions.
 
#52 ·
I know growing up our family never owned a crate and all our dogs survived but that does not mean I do not use crates now. My dogs happily run into their crates when I have to leave them at home. I don't always crate them when I go out except for one of the males (not always the same one) as they get along great but I want it to stay that way. Neither of them are neutered but Kiska is spayed. I just have never seen the need to have them done as they never roam around without me right there.

When I got Susie, my Bernese cross, I had her spayed at six months as I had never had a spayed female and according to the Vet, that is when she should be done. Knowing what I know now, I would have left her till she was older but what is done is done. Susie was never crated as I just did not have a big enough crate but she was also not a destructive dog at all, never chewed anything and I was with her all the time. She slept on my bed at night which made housebreaking easy as she would start to fuss and I would take her outside.
 
#54 ·
I've never crated a dog and I currently have a dog that was permanently injured from crate overuse, yet I see a forum full of people determined to keep their dogs safe, happy and healthy. Everyone who doesn't crate is still confining their dog in some way occasionally, whether by leash or a separate room. There just isn't enough difference for me to condemn crate users.
 
#55 ·
I can understand where you're coming from, Damnath. I think it just hits a nerve with some people here, as most of us don't leave our dogs for unnecessary amounts of time in crates without adequate physical/mental exercise. (I mean, we are on a dog forum after all, so most of us are very in to taking the very best possible care we can of our dogs :p)
 
#58 ·
Frankly, I'm also skeptical of claims like "I trained my dog not to leave the kitchen and hallway." How exactly did you train your dog to do that? I don't think I can think of a way to train a dog to do that without a shock collar or similar. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right...I'm not willing to do that and to be frank, I don't see why that's "better" than a crate.

My parents' dog isn't allowed on the sofa or the bed. He can never be found on a sofa or bed when people are home...but sometimes when we come home, there's a suspiciously warm dog-shaped spot. Dogs are smart.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Dogs ARE smart. And such CAN be done without shock collars and similar devices. A friend of mine and his wife have 2 dogs, probably no more than 2 years old each. They have a somewhat large eat-in kitchen with linoleum flooring, and the opening to the living room is at least 10 feet wide, with the living room being carpeted. Their dogs know extremely well that they are not to step into the living room and onto the carpet. Period. They are loving dog owners, they spend a lot of time in the kitchen or in the backyard playing with the dogs, but there are no exceptions to the carpet rule. Though I never saw the initial training, I can guarantee you that they are not the type to use such devices but they are ones that will put in a LOT of type and repetitive training. Those dogs will sometimes place a single paw on the carpet but will go absolutely no further. His wife was sick a few weeks back and she was saying how she was sitting on the floor against the couch at one point and one of the dogs hesitated for a good while before rushing over to her, nudging her and licking her a bit (as she was obviously sick) before rushing back to the kitchen, not to return to the carpet. It impresses me every time just how well they know it. IT CAN BE DONE lol

Back to the crates, we've all said it but I'll say it again. For some arguing against it or implying things, I absolutely hate leaving Jax in his crate but he's destroyed the kitchen floor in my rental, which is about to be replaced and costing me nearly $500 to do so. My landlords, fortunately, are awesome and I was very upfront about it (heck, I just got the dog back in Jan, told them 2-3 weeks later, asked about the pet deposit because the lease wasn't clear as to whether it was per pet, and when I reminded them I paid it for having a cat, they said don't worry about it), but I can only imagine the trouble if such were to happen again. That damage happened on a day he was left home alone 8+ hours. So was the damage to the carpet on the bottom of the stairwell, after he got through a gate and out of the kitchen.

He's very well house-trained. But left alone all day if I don't make it home for lunch as I typically do? He becomes a mess. That has little to do with training. I hope to break him of it, but in the mean time I'm forced to confine him to his crate daily. And I have a commitment this week and next that likely will not allow me to get home at lunch for far more days than he's had to endure. I absolutely hate it...but the floor is also being replaced this week and thus I can't risk giving him the kitchen for 8-10 hours uninterrupted. Since I started crating him daily, I've compromised. He now gets to sleep in my bedroom at night rather than the kitchen. Many nights I'll sleep on the couch downstairs just to allow him to have the kitchen and living room to roam.

While it's not ideal to crate him all day, I don't consider myself a bad dog owner. He gets out every evening for an hour on average, sometimes a little short and sometimes a little longer, for a trip to the park. I've started running him 3-4 miles every other day and building up to more, and that exhausts him. He gets several trips outside to the back yard to spend some time on his run for as long as he likes (usually 10-20 minutes before he barks to come in, which he immediately gets to).

I just don't buy the arguments of "train your dog so you don't have to use a crate" or "train your dog to behave correctly" because it's not that simple. All bets are off when no one is around. Dogs aren't dummies, and not all are created equal. What works for some does not work for all. Yes, there are those who abuse crates and it's sad, but you're also barking up the wrong tree with that one around here (hehe). I understand everyone has their own opinion, but you also need to try to be open to the fact that just because any one person may have a great dog that does well unsupervised does not mean that every dog does the same or can ever (unfortunately) be trusted to do so, no matter how much or how well we train.
 
#60 ·
My 25 lb dog has a large crate probably the size of the one you posted with the great dane in it, but a little shorter. He has enough room to play with a few toys, get up, walk a bit, rearrange his bedding etc. Why do you think a dog needs more space than that while you are away? It's my understanding that most dogs sleep the majority of the time their owners are away anyway, if they do wake up the crate just keeps them from getting into trouble. My guy absolutely loves his crate, he puts himself to bed every night in it and will go in to take a nap in the afternoon on his own.
 
#62 ·
Crates are a tool....Nothing more, nothing less.

Every year:
* Dogs die from chewing electric cords.
* Get into chemicals, get sick and die.
* Dogs that have gotten along with each other for YEARS, get into a spat and it turns ugly. With one dog killing the other.
 
#63 ·
When Mia was a puppy she was crated in a boxer sized crate (that was the breed on the label). She's a papillon.... So really that size of crate and a dog that small is giving her the same amount of room a big dog would have in a small run.

It's important to realize that all people don't use crates the same way. Personally, I work long hours so I will not use a crate during that time. However, I WILL confine the dog in some manner.
 
#65 ·
I can't imagine leaving 4 dogs unsupervised together. You never know when a scuffle will break out and you aren't there to stop it. That's why we crate and why as long as we have multiple dogs, we will crate when we aren't home to totally supervise. Also, every couple of months we do make a 6 hour car trip. It's not possible to have 4 loose dogs (our cat is also crate trained for this reason, we have 2 kittens that are currently being crate trained as well) in a car for a 6 hour trip.

As far as spaying/neutering, yes I did it partly for convenience. And I don't see anything wrong with it. Two of my dogs are puppy mill dogs and I absolutely wanted there to be zero chance that they'd ever have any offspring. I am almost 100% I will always spay my females. I have seen more dogs become really sick with pyometra than suffer any issues from being spayed. I'll be honest and say that after working at a veterinary office for nearly 3 years pyometra scares the crap out of me. I'm not as bothered by not neutering a male dog though. I probably won't neuter my next male dog unless at that point in my life I know I cannot keep him contained or he needs to be for medical reasons.
 
#66 ·
I think that there are people out there that do abuse the crate, ie keep the dog in a crate 10 hrs during the day and 10 hrs during the night. Don't train or exercise the dog, in other words irresponsible dog owners. But they are the minority.... lets say 1% of the dog owning population? Maybe 2%. Not the majority. But perhaps this is what the OP is talking about??? I'm guessing here.

I have trained/owned 4 dogs now. I used a crate for all 4 of them. But never more than overnight when they were little puppies and being potty trained. And during the day no more than 4 hrs. I used the crate as a tool to help house train the dog. I also habituated the dogs to crates for when I'd need to use them for vet visits, staying overnight in a kennel or someone's house.

I also am a proponent of spay/neuter only b/c I've rescued strays and just get sick of the thought of how many dogs are euth'ed in a year due to overpopulation. I just think that there are too many unwanted dogs in this country (world) to allow for the chance of an accidental breeding. I personally don't see any reason for a dog to be left intact UNLESS they are a show/breeding animal. But that's just my personal opinion. People are welcome to have differing opinions. I respect that. But my dogs will always be spayed/neutered.

Now about the Quality of Life argument. The OP's original statement. I think a properly crate trained dog has a positive association with the crate and doesn't mind being inside for a reasonable amt of time. I also think that in life there are things we have to do to follow the rules to better get along with society. Think of the use of the crate as one of those. Dogs would probably love to potty in a room in the house, chew on the Italian leather shoes, and shred the drapes. But life isn't about doing what we want all the time. If it were then many people wouldn't have a job, wouldn't have root canal surgery... you get my meaning. It's about balance.
 
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