Westminster rewards cruelty

[Alerondogs]

How do you think AR gets support? You can call it brainwashing, but if breeders keep doing things that normal, reasonable people would object to and then cry persecution when normal, reasonable people object, they certainly aren't going to get much support and will drive people to AR groups.

If someone is driven to support PETA because of they saw that a Collie breeder bred two merle dogs together, I'm not sure I would really consider them normal or reasonable.

[Willowy]

If someone is driven to support PETA because of they saw that a Collie breeder bred two merle dogs together, I'm not sure I would really consider them normal or reasonable.

One occurrence, no. A general attitude of "we'll do whatever we want even if it harms dogs", yes.

[JohnnyBandit]

How do you think AR gets support? You can call it brainwashing, but if breeders keep doing things that normal, reasonable people would object to and then cry persecution when normal, reasonable people object, they certainly aren't going to get much support and will drive people to AR groups.

You are being over dramatic.

The distance between being put out over some breeding practices of a few and Peta is VAST........

If that sends someone running into the arms of peta, they were heading in that direction anyway.

[Nargle]

In some dog breeds where any amount of white spotting is discouraged there is more success with this as the dilution effect of MM amplifies up when it combines with white spotting.

Hmm I find this to be curious. Is the way that MM effects the white spotting gene very well understood? I find it interesting because on the cryptic merle thread you started not long ago, I shared a story about a breeding that involved merle Dachshunds. The father of the litter was a blue merle and the mother was red with a black nose, neither had any white on them. One of the puppies was born nearly blind and totally deaf, and he was mostly white with patches of pale yellow. Considering that there are breeds that discourage white markings and breed merle to merle, and they "seem" to have a lower chance of having their vision and hearing effected by the MM gene, you'd think that this puppy would have also not been as effected by the MM gene since neither of the parents had any white, and neither did any of his siblings. But this pup had a very large amount of white, he looked piebald. Does this mean that MM puppies from breeds with few white markings are actually just as much at risk of developing problems as breeds with more white markings (they just so far have been very lucky not to develop any problems)?

[Willowy]

Aren't Dachshunds dapple, not merle? Is it the same gene, different name?

[Willowy]

You are being over dramatic.

The distance between being put out over some breeding practices of a few and Peta is VAST........

If that sends someone running into the arms of peta, they were heading in that direction anyway.

There are less extreme AR groups than PETA.

If some people can't see how things like this (and the "culling" thing. . .ick) turns public sentiment against breeders, I don't think I could explain it to them. But it does.

[spanielorbust]

Aren't Dachshunds dapple, not merle? Is it the same gene, different name?

Same gene, different name.

Hmm I find this to be curious. Is the way that MM effects the white spotting gene very well understood? )?

It is not. Lots is discussed. Most information is anecdotal but there are recognized patterns that seem to be commonly reported.

I find it interesting because on the cryptic merle thread you started not long ago, I shared a story about a breeding that involved merle Dachshunds. The father of the litter was a blue merle and the mother was red with a black nose, neither had any white on them. One of the puppies was born nearly blind and totally deaf, and he was mostly white with patches of pale yellow.

Hallmarks of a double merle pup.

Considering that there are breeds that discourage white markings and breed merle to merle, and they "seem" to have a lower chance of having their vision and hearing effected by the MM gene, you'd think that this puppy would have also not been as effected by the MM gene since neither of the parents had any white, and neither did any of his siblings.

This is about chances. The puppy you are speaking of probably had better odds than an MM pup from piebald parents, however chance did not work in his direction. When I say that MM is amplified up by white spotting . . . this is not set in stone. It is not fully predictable. This is what 'incomplete penetrance' is all about. Things that we do not understand, like a cold the dam has while pups are developing, can change the way that foetus' develop, including having an affect on color.

But this pup had a very large amount of white, he looked piebald. Does this mean that MM puppies from breeds with few white markings are actually just as much at risk of developing problems as breeds with more white markings (they just so far have been very lucky not to develop any problems)?

The large amount of white on double merles can be from just those two alleles. MM puppies from breeds with very little white can still have horrific problems because of the MM load. Breeders in the Dashchund and Catahoula breeds say the chances are lowered as they favor fully colored dogs . . . and there has been a couple of small sample size studies that I have seen that have included these breeds and it looks like this is true . . . so far. That far from means that there is safety in producing MM when the lines behind have no white spotting. Disasters still happen. If you click on the link about the Catahoula pup from the last page you will see what I mean.

SOB

[sassafras]

If some people can't see how things like this (and the "culling" thing. . .ick) turns public sentiment against breeders, I don't think I could explain it to them. But it does.

Yea it's not the PETA people you need to worry about, it's the otherwise moderate public. However anyone feels personally about merle x merle breedings, I'm astonished that the perception of the public isn't even on the radar as a concern. Besides, why should Joe or Jane Average believe the AKC when it advises only buying from breeders who health test so they don't accidentally produce unhealthy puppies when there are breeders who are deliberately taking a chance with producing unhealthy puppies and ultimately rewarded for it? Self-policing organizations only work when its members actually self-police.

[spanielorbust]

Do you feel all breeders of Catahoulas are irresponsible?.

Catahoulas come in solid black, solid red, yellow, and brindle and as well merle. I don't categorize breeders as 'irresponsible' or 'not'. I will categorize their practices and if a breeder is breeding merle to merle I believe they are being morally unethical and I will not support that.

I'm not sure "AR will come to your door if you don't stop controversial breedings" is really a valid argument. .

That was not my argument though was it. My argument is that full breed clubs better be seen to be policing their own, as they are supposed to represent the better breeders. If those in the breed clubs will not be seen to be policing their own THEN AR will have more fuel for their fire.

Double merle breedings are not allowed in MANY, MANY breed clubs, and I am of the understanding that the KC in the UK will not register MM pups. We are not speaking about some 'odd' sensitive people that see this as being abhorent.

In the eyes of AR, it's all controversial breeding. Or rather, all breeders are equally irresponsible and there is no such thing as a good breeder. They have been taking a divide and conquer approach with breeders for decades now. They are already writing laws, paying lobbyists and brainwashing the public.

Breeders were dissing each other long before AR had a foothold. Read "Toy Dogs and Their Ancestors", written in 1911, and that author even has a go at 'lesser' breeders. PETA was established well after my earliest memories of breeders trash talking each other and playing 'exclusion' games. However, it is really here nor there who gave them the model, AR has run with it. SINCE they have I believe pro-activity would be the smart way to go.

Willowy has this exactly right. "If breeders keep doing things that normal, reasonable people would object to and then cry persecution when normal, reasonable people object, they certainly aren't going to get much support and will drive people to AR groups."

If breeders cannot differentiate between what is acceptable practice by most of the societal norms of today, and what is not, and act accordingly then they have already lost.

SOB

[Pawzk9]

Hmm I find this to be curious. Is the way that MM effects the white spotting gene very well understood? I find it interesting because on the cryptic merle thread you started not long ago, I shared a story about a breeding that involved merle Dachshunds. The father of the litter was a blue merle and the mother was red with a black nose, neither had any white on them. One of the puppies was born nearly blind and totally deaf, and he was mostly white with patches of pale yellow. Considering that there are breeds that discourage white markings and breed merle to merle, and they "seem" to have a lower chance of having their vision and hearing effected by the MM gene, you'd think that this puppy would have also not been as effected by the MM gene since neither of the parents had any white, and neither did any of his siblings. But this pup had a very large amount of white, he looked piebald. Does this mean that MM puppies from breeds with few white markings are actually just as much at risk of developing problems as breeds with more white markings (they just so far have been very lucky not to develop any problems)?

They may still have problems, but it is less likely than in breeds with a large amount of white trim. BTW in dachshunds it is called dapple. Same gene.

[Pawzk9]

[QUOTE=Willowy;1139392]There are less extreme AR groups than PETA.

[QUOTE]

Not all of them dress as carrots or parade nude celebrities around. But there is no such thing as a "moderate" AR group.

[Pawzk9]

Juniper, Catahoula double merle born w/ no anus - NEEDS HELP - (Sad story, don't click if you're sensitive) - http://handicappedpet.net/helppets/v...p?f=29&t=13347

SOB

Sad story and a puppy with many strikes against it. Do you have any evidence (even anecdotal) that lack of an anus is an issue from MxM breeding? I've never heard of it.

[spanielorbust]

Sad story and a puppy with many strikes against it. Do you have any evidence (even anecdotal) that lack of an anus is an issue from MxM breeding? I've never heard of it.

Anecdotally I have always understood double merles can be born with severe deformities . . . not something pleasant to deal with. I grew up with that knowledge and as I don't like the merle pattern I've not investigated far into it, so I just looked it up to confirm defects in double merles are not limited to sight and hearing.

"Fetal death rate for MM dogs is reported by some to be as high as 50% and surviving pups generally do suffer from some form of sensory and other anomalies, with hearing and sight defects most common"

http://www.chromadane.com/GDColor006.htm

"In all breeds, the double merle genotype can be sublethal and is associated with multiple abnormalities of the skeletal, cardiac, and reproductive systems"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360527/

Took me a bit, but here it is, reportedly from the lips of Wayne himself:

“While the British Kennel Club, in addition to changing its breed standards, has banned the registration of puppies from closely related parents, the A.K.C. has refused to follow suit. Wayne Pacelle, the Humane Society C.E.O., told me that if the A.K.C. and breed clubs won’t act, it’s inevitable that animal welfare groups will push for legal standards addressing inbreeding and the physical soundness and genetic health of dogs. ”Breeding certainly has a place in the world of dogs, but this mania about achieving what’s considered a ‘perfect’ or desirable outward appearance rather than focusing on the physical soundness of the animal is one of the biggest dog-welfare problems in this country,”� he said. “And the emotional and financial cost of these sick dogs to their owners is enormous.” (emphasis added)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/ma...4&pagewanted=1

I dunno but I just think a proactive approach might better serve anyone who is interested in breeding in the future.

SOB

[Pai]

I'm amazed that merle would be invisible in Xolos, since the pigment is on the skin.

I asked around on the Xolo FB group I'm on, and was shown this pic of a CH merle hairless Xolo, MEXCH Teotihuacan:



So in essence, they're the same as a cryptic, since that type of skin spotting is common in even non-merle hairless.

How about a cream so the dog doesn't have to gum its food?

I just noticed you edited your post to add this comment. Both my dogs can chew just fine, actually. The only teeth that are affected in most dogs are the premolars. There are some breeders who use the gene as an excuse to not breed for good mouths, but that's a separate issue. I understand you're feeling defensive about the whole MxM but taking pot shots at breeds that you don't understand doesn't really help your case.

[Pawzk9]

I asked around on the Xolo FB group I'm on, and was shown this pic of a CH merle hairless Xolo, MEXCH Teotihuacan:



So in essence, they're the same as a cryptic, since that type of skin spotting is common in even non-merle hairless.


I just noticed you edited your post to add this comment. Both my dogs can chew just fine, actually. The only teeth that are affected in most dogs are the premolars. There are some breeders who use the gene as an excuse to not breed for good mouths, but that's a separate issue. I understand you're feeling defensive about the whole MxM but taking pot shots at breeds that you don't understand doesn't really help your case.

Interesting. I guess tghe blue eyes would be the give-away. As to not "understanding" Cresteds, I've never owned one but have friends who were breeders. One of whom got the first AKC obedience title on one. So, I wouldn't consider myself unfamiliar with the breed.

[Pai]

So then it's just a personal values judgement on your part that you consider having breeds with a few missing teeth and occasional zits the moral equivalent of purposely breeding dogs with a high risk of being born without eyes or the ability to hear?

Glad we got that straight, then.

[Pawzk9]

So then it's just a personal values judgement on your part that you consider having breeds with a few missing teeth and occasional zits the moral equivalent of purposely breeding dogs with a high risk of being born without eyes or the ability to hear?

Glad we got that straight, then.

Cute spin! The risk of MM is approximately 25% which is unacceptably high for most breeders. It is not a trait selected for. Not every MM (in fact not most of them) is blind and deaf. Some are minimally affected or not affected at all. On the other hand, what is the penetrance of dentition problems in the hairless cresteds (which is a trait specifically selected for? I just think people should look at their own house before they go trying to clean other people's houses.

[KBLover]

There are less extreme AR groups than PETA.

If some people can't see how things like this (and the "culling" thing. . .ick) turns public sentiment against breeders, I don't think I could explain it to them. But it does.

The "public" should seek facts, not headlines. In any field or endeaver.

[KBLover]

[QUOTE=Pawzk9;1139423][QUOTE=Willowy;1139392]There are less extreme AR groups than PETA.

Not all of them dress as carrots or parade nude celebrities around. But there is no such thing as a "moderate" AR group.

Wait...what?

[sassafras]

The "public" should seek facts, not headlines. In any field or endeaver.

Yes, and people shouldn't steal from or murder each other. I prefer to plan for what people actually DO, not what I think they SHOULD do.