Thread: AKC vs. ACA

Okay I really hope there is someone out there who can possibly help me. I recently purchased a beautiful beagle from a high volume pet store. The papers I received with her states that she is registered with the American Canine Association. Can someone tell me or explain to me the difference. I have been doing some research and have found many sites to refer to the ACA as a "bogus registery" if this is so, is there anything I can do? I have payed a great deal of money which I do feel she is worth it ...but honestly if she was bred from a "puppy mill" then isn't there anything to do about this?? And it also states she is microchipped but when I went to register that on the ACA website...it does not work. Imagine that. Please someone Help me!!! I am so upset and confused.

The AKC, UKC, ARBA and some individual working dog registries (such as those for Border Collies, Australian Shepherds and Foxhounds) are legitimate registries. Unfortunately, many pet stores and BYBs are basically defrauding the public with bogus registries. Sadly it seems that the poster is a victim and there may or may not be anything she can do other than hope she's one of the lucky ones whose puppy mill dog is reasonably healthy. I made the mistake once, years ago of getting a pet store puppy and I was lucky.

If the dog looks purebred and if it 's spayed/neutered, the poster can apply for an AKC ILP number. This would enable her to participate in any AKC performance event that Beagles are eligible for.

I agree with all of the other posters.

although mistakes with the AKC do happen, it is far easier for puppy millers to register dogs with pet registries such as APRI (another crap registry) and ACA.

In some instances, these millers even get a discount for registering mass ammounts of dogs (imagine a Sam's club discount for puppy mills!)

Just like any thing else you want to buy, pets are "buyer beware." People don't seem to realize that pet stores are one of the worse places to get a dog, as great breeders won't sell their puppies to a pet store.

As for what you can do-probably nothing. The petstores didn't do anything wrong, technically. It's not their fault that you were willing to pay out big bucks for a dog, a dog for which you had no clue of the background.

The only way you could "get" them for anything is if your puppy gets sick, and you can prove that it was the condition of the pet store that caused your pup's illness.

Unfortunately, any genetic illnesses (such as hip displasia or a heart murmer) wouldn't be the pet store's fault. And, unless you got a contract with the breeder (which I doubt, as your dog likely came from a puppy mill) you're going to be saddled with the vet bill.

That is why it is so important to do a little research before you buy a puppy. It is important to know WHERE and HOW to buy a puppy; what kind of illnesses are inherant in the breed, etc.

I'm sorry that you're in this situation. Please, just spay your pet and enjoy her for what she can offer you.

I have to disagree with the above posters on some points. One of the big problems with pet shop puppies is that many of them are AKC registered, and they still come from puppymills. But to the OP, all the other registries are worse. The AKC at least does refuse to register the dogs of breeders that have broken their rules, few as they are. The other registries don't care. And some pet shops even try to fool the public by issuing "Pet-a-gree" papers that they made up with their own graphics program on their own computer. And people fall for this. And there's nothing that can be done because it's not illegal - and neither are puppymills.

So, to the OP, here's my question to you -- with all the education that humane societies, shelters, rescues, and other animal activists are constantly trying to get out to the public, why didn't you get the message? You could really help a lot by explaining how we missed the boat with you. Even Dateline on television ran some puppymill/pet shop exposes. And what the consensus is, is that the only way to stop it is to stop buying dogs from pet stores. So how are we going to stop that pet shop traffic if you, and people like you, aren't hearing our message? Please help us.

As for your dog - love it and cherish it, and say a prayer for it's mama who is still in a cage somewhere, pumping out puppies so that those pet shop cages will be filled. Though puppymills are all over the country, a predominant amount of them are in the midwest and northeast. Think of her when the weather is freezing, because she's outside in a wire cage that cause her feet to hurt. Be sure to give your puppy nice toys, and think about his mama who will never have any. Be sure to give him a soft bed, and/or a blanket, because she'll never have that either. And be sure to give him good food, because the food she gets is the cheapest food possible, so it doesn't cut into the breeders profits. And be sure to get him good veterinary care, which is something else she will never have because it just costs more than the breeder thinks she is worth.

And please, please, please, educate yourself and help us pass the word so that the next person doesn't make the same mistake you did. That's the only thing that can be done.

VERY nice post, DA.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

This is an interesting twist on the word...I almost think it should be "pet-agree?".

Either way, it's a sham.

I skimmed the answers to this - can't add anything other then to agree - its a puppy mill registry. Best thing to do is say a prayer your pup that it stays healthy and spay/neuter ASAP - don't even THINK about breeding your pup.

Amazingly insightful and intelligent posts, DogAdvocat and Curbside Prophet.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Very true...however, I'm thinking of starting my own registry...and I wouldn't be a sham. I need help with names, but in my registry we're going to have monthly bonfire to burn all those papers from crap registries. I'm thinking of using the acronym "AKC" too, but mine would stand for "American Kindling Club". I would charge both an admission to the bonfire and to register your dog, and return the fees to where it belongs...helping to educate people of crap registries, and all those poor dogs sitting in shelters. I think I'm on to something here?

LOL !! I know one rescue that used those little blue papers to wallpaper her office with. I like your idea better.

Yes, the AKC does register pet store dogs (mine was AKC registered), which I think is a shame. I understand that the AKC has to make enough money to at least break even but feel they should do more to educate the public about pet stores and puppy mills. I'm glad that at least the contract they were planning with Petland fell through due to so many complaints from member clubs. If they can't do something such as require all pet store dogs be spayed/neutered before being registered, I'd be willing to pay somewhat higher fees to at least partially make up for some of the losses due to refusing to register pet store dogs. But, I think they should also concentrate on inspections at known puppy mills, verifying records and doing DNA testing on the animals, as well as inspecting the physical condition of the animals and the environment to see that they at least meet reasonable minimum standards.

Actually puppy mills are illegal. They are illegally run according to state regulations. Any breeding facility has to be kept in a clean and organized condition. Puppy mills are not. To breed more than 3 dogs a city issued breeder license must be issue, which is hard for a puppy mill to acquire because this constitutes that the city has to do an inspection of the premises and of the dogs. Puppy mills people will not allow this to happen. In fact that is how some of them are found and shut down. Any licensed breeder must take their animals to the vet (as with any pet owner) because breeding dogs must be current on shots and rabies and registered with the city. Also another way puppy mills are found. Neighbors call in about dogs getting lose or something along those lines, find that those people don't have any dogs registered to them and go to investigate.

Puppy mills most of the time keep their dogs in cages that are way to small for them or are given free roam of a house. They never clean up feces or urine or dead animals. They are not given sufficient amounts of food or water, which in turn causes several diseases.

No reputable breeder will sell one of their puppies to a pet store. It's a shame that this is still happening. However they can get dogs registered AKC if they are not inbred because they do require a blood sample now. Or all they have to do is take a picture of a dog name it's breed and the AKC will register it. However sometimes they do require a verification from the vet. That's not hard. They just have to walk one of their dogs into a vets office, get that breed confirmed and they're all set. They can do this with so many dogs without being caught because there are at least 100 vets in any given county.

People should really do all their research before buying a puppy. My advice to anyone who buys one from a pet store should be to return it for their money back and go to a breeder or a rescue or the humane society. If people stop buying from pet stores then puppy mills no longer make money and there for can no longer afford anything and this will help put an end to puppy mills...

BYB breeders should be treated the same. If anyone breeds for money and not the betterment of the breed, they should not be allowed to own animals.

I have 2 Eskies that are on their last litter of puppies right now. They are 5 years old and no longer need to have more litters. They were bred for the temperaments and their health. They are sweet (which is hard to find in this breed now) and they are in perfect health with no signs of any genetic disorder. The age to stop breeding females is 8 years old which puppy mills breed females till they die. I am stopping mine at 5 just for health sakes. I don't want to risk her developing pyometria or any other severe disorder that comes with more and more litters and age.

Originally Posted by Raggs

Actually puppy mills are illegal. They are illegally run according to state regulations. Any breeding facility has to be kept in a clean and organized condition. Puppy mills are not. To breed more than 3 dogs a city issued breeder license must be issue, which is hard for a puppy mill to acquire because this constitutes that the city has to do an inspection of the premises and of the dogs. Puppy mills people will not allow this to happen. In fact that is how some of them are found and shut down. Any licensed breeder must take their animals to the vet (as with any pet owner) because breeding dogs must be current on shots and rabies and registered with the city. Also another way puppy mills are found. Neighbors call in about dogs getting lose or something along those lines, find that those people don't have any dogs registered to them and go to investigate.

Puppymills ARE NOT illegal. A puppymill is any commercial kennel that pumps out (mills) puppys for a profit. Puppymills were encouraged by our government as a cash crop for farmers after WWII. You say a city breeder license must be issued to anyone breeding more than 3 dogs, but this isn't a national mandate. It may be that way in your city, which is great, but it sure isn't that way across the country. The USDA inspects commercial kennels, and they give their stamp of approval to horrendous places year after year. I really think you need to do a little more study before you try to educate. Have you ever been in a puppymill? I have. I've seen puppymills with hundreds of breeding dogs, and they passed all inspections, even though the dogs were in horrible shape.

Puppy mills most of the time keep their dogs in cages that are way to small for them or are given free roam of a house. They never clean up feces or urine or dead animals. They are not given sufficient amounts of food or water, which in turn causes several diseases.

While true, puppymills also have their dogs in cement runs where they have as much room as any boarded dog does, but they get minimal interaction with humans (no socialization) and diseases don't matter as long as the dog can reproduce. When they no longer can reproduce, they are discarded.

No reputable breeder will sell one of their puppies to a pet store. It's a shame that this is still happening. However they can get dogs registered AKC if they are not inbred because they do require a blood sample now. Or all they have to do is take a picture of a dog name it's breed and the AKC will register it. However sometimes they do require a verification from the vet. That's not hard. They just have to walk one of their dogs into a vets office, get that breed confirmed and they're all set. They can do this with so many dogs without being caught because there are at least 100 vets in any given county.

Most of this is wrong. You are right about reputable breeders not selling through a pet store, but inbreeding has nothing to do with AKC registration. Inbreeding is one of the three ways that even reputable breeders use, the others being linebreeding and outcrossing. Carefully inbreeding can help set a type. And the AKC will NOT register a dog from a picture. What you're talking about is ILP, which allows dogs to compete in AKC performance events but not conformation events. And most vets are not expert on breeds and their standards, and would not be used to verify whether a dog is purebred.

People should really do all their research before buying a puppy. My advice to anyone who buys one from a pet store should be to return it for their money back and go to a breeder or a rescue or the humane society. If people stop buying from pet stores then puppy mills no longer make money and there for can no longer afford anything and this will help put an end to puppy mills...

Your right, people should do their research, but most pet shops will not take the puppy back and will not return the money. They count on impulse buys and sales are final unless there is a "contract" regarding the dogs health and the buyer can prove that the dog is unhealthy - even then it's often difficult to get the petshop to comply.

BYB breeders should be treated the same. If anyone breeds for money and not the betterment of the breed, they should not be allowed to own animals.

I have 2 Eskies that are on their last litter of puppies right now. They are 5 years old and no longer need to have more litters. They were bred for the temperaments and their health. They are sweet (which is hard to find in this breed now) and they are in perfect health with no signs of any genetic disorder. The age to stop breeding females is 8 years old which puppy mills breed females till they die. I am stopping mine at 5 just for health sakes. I don't want to risk her developing pyometria or any other severe disorder that comes with more and more litters and age.

Pyometra is a disease that can show up at any age. You say you bred for temperament and health. What about improving the breed? Are you breeding to meet the standard? Did you research your dog's lineages to find out what diseases were in past generations, or are you only going by their health now? What pre-breeding health tests did you do? Do you know what diseases that Eskies are prone to? What kind of health guarantees do you give on your puppies? Do you spay/neuter your pups, or are they all being bred too? Are your dogs one of the examples of those you said have their breed verified by a vet?

Yes I have done all my research, I have been grooming for 8 years, I used to rescue, I worked with the ASPCA (how I know about puppy mills and laws in different states), I train dogs, I used to be a vet tech, and am now going to college to become a vet. I am breeding to help the breed not for money. I know it can show up at any age but the risk becomes greater with the dogs age. Yes I am meeting the breed standard. The parents of mine dogs and the granparents had no diseases. Yes I know all about the health risks of this breed and everything about them. I know over 200 breeds plus their breed standards and their health risks and problems they are prone to. I'm not stupid like some people. If I didn't know my facts I wouldn't be posting anything. Just because all states aren't exactly the same doesn't mean that the majority don't have laws to try to prevent puppy mills. I have been thru several puppy mills and been in a couple that have been caught because of a simple rabies license. Both in New York and in Utah (where Utah hardly has any laws, it's not an animal friendly state). All of my puppies get vet checked and guaranteed for their health. However one of their problems is hip dysplasia and no amount of x-rays until the dog is 6 months can guarantee that they wont have it. They all go to homes only with a signing of a spay/neuter contract and if they don't abide by that contract I take the puppy back and have it altered myself and find a new home for it. I don't do anything with the AKC registered as I said above. I got both of my dogs from my dad who got them both from reputable breeders and have a strong lineage to back them up.

I'd suggest you quit asking so much questions about me. If I wasn't out to help animals I wouldn't have joined this board. I'm not a stupid ignorant person that doesn't know a thing about animals.

Plus I know that vets don't know all about breeds, those aren't my standards for the AKC, that's how they ask for it. I groomed a Shih Tzu poodle mix one day that the vet said was a purebred Maltese. Last time I checked, Malteses didn't come in black.

Like I said above I know over 200 breeds, their standards, their health risks and diseases they are prone to, that's why I'm studying to become a vet, because I don't know one vet that know as much about breeds as I do...

My friend just e-mailed me about breeding her lab. I wrote her a novel about the health problems a lab faces and all about the breed and everything. Then told her to talk to her vet, she let me know that because of what I informed her and her vet backed me up entirely she has decided to spay her Lab instead of breeding her. Why, because I told her about the retina problems found in Labs and the vet found, thru testing, that her dog is starting to show signs of PRA... Progressive Retinal Atrophy. She would never have asked her vet about it if I had said anything. So while I'm breeding a pair of dogs in perfect health who's lineage all had perfect health, I'm not all for breeding. I'd rather get back into rescue, but I got so sick of seeing Eskies get such a bad rap and see one after another with tons of health problems. I thought it was high time this breed started to get better.

And on that note, I'm done posting in the forum. I'm here to try to help people, not here to get my head ripped off. I got that enough in my grooming forum where I tried to inform people of a special hold on dogs that are aggressive. While I got ripped apart on that one another groomer came on to back me up. She had to learn the hold I explained before she could continue to groom at the vet's shop she's at now. So while a few people think I may be stupid or cruel or just out to get people, they really need to ask around and do more and more research before ripping my head off.

It makes it hard to help people when I don't feel welcomed on a board, thanks for that. How about using your aggression and inquisitive nature against people who don't give a rats butt about animals but think that they are doing a good job by smacking them when they do something wrong or telling them, good dog, to calm them down when they are trying to bit the vet or a groomer.

Sorry you feel that way, Raggs.

I have to say that I agree with DA. If you don't show your dogs, you aren't breeding for the right reason.

How do you know your dogs are even on standard?

(btw, you didn't mention whether or not you do show, so I'm assuming you don't)

You sound like a well educated back yard breeder, to me.

Originally Posted by Snowshoe

Sorry you feel that way, Raggs.

I have to say that I agree with DA. If you don't show your dogs, you aren't breeding for the right reason.

How do you know your dogs are even on standard?

(btw, you didn't mention whether or not you do show, so I'm assuming you don't)

You sound like a well educated back yard breeder, to me.

Thanks Snowshoe. The problem is that I think there's a lot of question about the educational level. I'm seeing so many red flags, that it's scary to think that the uninformed might be taking him/her seriously. Even this last post where s/he talks about hip dysplasia and a six month cutoff to find out, by x-ray, if the dog has it, when actually dogs can show up with it as late as 2 years old. I think s/he has learned some of the buzz words, but has no real concept of what they mean. We're obviously not all experts on these boards, and we all have things to learn, and I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I think we do newcomers a disservice if we let erroneous information stand without challenge.

Originally Posted by Raggs

Yes I have done all my research, I have been grooming for 8 years, I used to rescue, I worked with the ASPCA (how I know about puppy mills and laws in different states), I train dogs, I used to be a vet tech, and am now going to college to become a vet. I am breeding to help the breed not for money. I know it can show up at any age but the risk becomes greater with the dogs age. Yes I am meeting the breed standard.

The breed standard is the ideal for what the breed should be. Responsible breeders work to improve their dogs, using that standard as a guide. If you are meeting the standard, then you must think your dogs are the ideal for what an American Eskimo should be. How are you ascertaining this? How and who judges them?

The parents of mine dogs and the granparents had no diseases. Yes I know all about the health risks of this breed and everything about them. I know over 200 breeds plus their breed standards and their health risks and problems they are prone to. I'm not stupid like some people.

I know a lot of people that know where to research for breed standards and diseases common to each of the breeds, but I've never met anyone that knows them all by heart. I'm impressed !!! The breed standards are pretty intricate, and require a lot of study. Where DO you find the time?

If I didn't know my facts I wouldn't be posting anything.

And yet I've seen several examples of "facts" that are erroneous, like the information on AKC registrations. Ooops? One would think a breeder would know more about that.

Just because all states aren't exactly the same doesn't mean that the majority don't have laws to try to prevent puppy mills. I have been thru several puppy mills and been in a couple that have been caught because of a simple rabies license. Both in New York and in Utah (where Utah hardly has any laws, it's not an animal friendly state).

I think what you are talking about is local zoning laws. As long as an area allows kennels, then puppymills are legal. So your information that puppymills aren't legal is wrong. Are you familiar with the Hunte Corporation that even got a grant from the USDA to promote and subsidize puppymills?

All of my puppies get vet checked and guaranteed for their health. However one of their problems is hip dysplasia and no amount of x-rays until the dog is 6 months can guarantee that they wont have it.

This is the kind of information that I find very disturbing from someone whose purpose is to educate. Dogs can't be cleared of hip dysplasia until 2 years of age. They CAN have preliminary x-rays done from 4 months and up, but that's not the final reading. So even at 6 months there's no guarantee. If this is the kind of education you are putting out to the public, PLEASE STOP.

They all go to homes only with a signing of a spay/neuter contract and if they don't abide by that contract I take the puppy back and have it altered myself and find a new home for it. I don't do anything with the AKC registered as I said above. I got both of my dogs from my dad who got them both from reputable breeders and have a strong lineage to back them up.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that your dogs aren't AKC registered, or are you saying that someone else handles the registration for you? If the latter, then it explains why you are giving out erroneous information about veterinary certification for breed identification. You need to ask more questions before educating on this.

I'd suggest you quit asking so much questions about me. If I wasn't out to help animals I wouldn't have joined this board. I'm not a stupid ignorant person that doesn't know a thing about animals.

I think that you THINK you know a lot about animals, but as long as you keep raising red flags pointing to the wrong information you're giving, then it would do a greater disservice to the animals to remain quiet and not question that wrong information - don't you think? Just like your misinformation on the Health Board where you say that dogs can only have one baby aspirin (81mg), when that is totally absurd.

Plus I know that vets don't know all about breeds, those aren't my standards for the AKC, that's how they ask for it. I groomed a Shih Tzu poodle mix one day that the vet said was a purebred Maltese. Last time I checked, Malteses didn't come in black.

Which is why the AKC does NOT require or accept vet certification that a dog is of a certain breed.

Like I said above I know over 200 breeds, their standards, their health risks and diseases they are prone to, that's why I'm studying to become a vet, because I don't know one vet that know as much about breeds as I do...

Ok, let's say this is true - what possible purpose would there be for you to know the standards of 200 breeds? It certainly isn't going to help in the veterinary profession. Wouldn't it be of more use if you concentrated on basic animal care, like dogs needing to be inside with their families, or what common medications (like aspirin) a dog can have? How will knowing if a dog's "stop" meets the standard help in your veterinary career? Seems to me that kind of information would only help if you wanted a career being an AKC judge.

My friend just e-mailed me about breeding her lab. I wrote her a novel about the health problems a lab faces and all about the breed and everything. Then told her to talk to her vet, she let me know that because of what I informed her and her vet backed me up entirely she has decided to spay her Lab instead of breeding her. Why, because I told her about the retina problems found in Labs and the vet found, thru testing, that her dog is starting to show signs of PRA... Progressive Retinal Atrophy. She would never have asked her vet about it if I had said anything. So while I'm breeding a pair of dogs in perfect health who's lineage all had perfect health, I'm not all for breeding. I'd rather get back into rescue, but I got so sick of seeing Eskies get such a bad rap and see one after another with tons of health problems. I thought it was high time this breed started to get better.

I'm glad you were able to dissuade your friend from breeding.

And on that note, I'm done posting in the forum. I'm here to try to help people, not here to get my head ripped off. I got that enough in my grooming forum where I tried to inform people of a special hold on dogs that are aggressive. While I got ripped apart on that one another groomer came on to back me up. She had to learn the hold I explained before she could continue to groom at the vet's shop she's at now. So while a few people think I may be stupid or cruel or just out to get people, they really need to ask around and do more and more research before ripping my head off.

Again, you aren't helping people if you are giving them the wrong information. Some things are a matter of opinion, and they can be argued but not be considered wrong. But aspirin dosage, and 6 month clearance on OFA, and vet clearances being accepted for breed identification by the AKC, and some of the other things that I cringed at when you posted them, are just wrong and can be harmful for the dogs if people take you seriously. So I'm sorry if you felt I ripped your head off, but I'm not sorry if it saved one dog from an owner that got misinformation in this forum.

It makes it hard to help people when I don't feel welcomed on a board, thanks for that. How about using your aggression and inquisitive nature against people who don't give a rats butt about animals but think that they are doing a good job by smacking them when they do something wrong or telling them, good dog, to calm them down when they are trying to bit the vet or a groomer.

The difference is, those people aren't claiming to have expertise. Those people are here for advice, not here to educate. Can you really honestly tell us that if you saw someone come on and say it was a fact that American Eskimos should have black spots, and be brachycephalic, and that every Eskie that didn't have these features should be destroyed --- that you would sit there quietly???? Wrong information is wrong information, and when you consistently give out wrong information, then you should expect someone to point it out and contradict you.

And remember, these boards are for learning too. Try it, you might like it.