Older dog jealous of new puppy
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  1. #1
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    Question Older dog jealous of new puppy

    As i discussed in my other thread I have a 4 yr old cocker spaniel/king charles (has been the only dog in the house for 4 yrs) we just recently rescued a new puppy (3 months old) German Shapard/Beagle. The older dog (princess) was ok with the puppy (diesel) on the 1st day (Tuesday) they slept beside each other and she kept licking his face. Diesel likes Princess and tries to play with her. On the 2nd and 3rd day (today) he has been worse. Princess growls at him and nips him. Diesel will not fight back he just lays there. When she plays he wants to play with her and then she gets mad, if we pet him and not her she gets mad only sometimes. She kisses him a lot though. If we seprate them in idfferent rooms they cry for each other. When we crate Diesel at night she will sleep by the crate. If we leave them alone together they are fine and do there own thing. So it is like they get a long 90% of the time and the other 10% they do not.

    Some people say Princess is being jealous, other say you just need to ignore them and they will learn, and others are saying she is trying to "mother" the puppy.

    I'm not sure what to do or what I should do any advice? (any articles to look at, dvd's to watch, books to read)

    I've google topics, looked up things on youtube, even wrote the dog whisper. Im just having trouble finding anything that relates to our problem- they get a long sometimes but not others.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    he is laying there with an attitude that says "fine...i will stop for now...but sheesh i really wanted to play"?

    Usually he leaves her alone when she is napping. While she is napping he usually chews bones. she goes on the beds when she wants to be left alone knowing he cant get on the bed.

    & thank you for the advice!

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Thank you everyone.

    I know this will take time as everyone is saying . . . just worried about one of them getting hurt.

    I supervise there "playtime" and when they are around each other. when we are sleeping or not home the puppy gets put in his cage and the older dog roams the house (or at least used to) now she usually lays by his cage.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Thank you.

    that is a good idea. I never thought of it that way.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Quote Originally Posted by ladysncharms View Post
    I would cage/isolate the older dog too when you are not around, she is really thinking that she pack leader when the pack leader should be you. When caging them cage next to each other.

    LadysnCharms - http://d0eaejmzpd4l9v88kkrdq5m5wg.hop.clickbank.net/
    I'd say it's dangerous to think we know what dogs are thinking. As for crating, I'd also say it'd be benefitial to condition the dogs so they are comfortable being crated away from eachother as well as next to eachother. It can be a real pain to have two dogs who are inseparable, not to mention dangerous.

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    Senior Member pamperedpups's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Quote Originally Posted by ladysncharms View Post
    Also in wolf pack your dog would be the Alpha Dog or top dog so she will have more control.

    Just donot leave them unsupervised for now aleast until the puppy learns who is the Alpha Dog.

    Ladyncharms - http://d0eaejmzpd4l9v88kkrdq5m5wg.hop.clickbank.net/
    These two dogs do not a wolf pack make.


    BabyBetty - Check out http://www.dogstardaily.com - Read Before & After You Get Your Puppy, etc.

    and also take a look at http://www.clickertraining.com and watch these training videos by Kikopup: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup
    Last edited by pamperedpups; 03-18-2010 at 10:50 PM.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    That was my next question crate them in different cages right?

    That is one thing I tell the dogs I wish you could speak and just tell me what you want.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Quote Originally Posted by pamperedpups View Post
    These two dogs do not a wolf pack make.


    BabyBetty - Check out http://www.dogstardaily.com - Read Before & After You Get Your Puppy, etc.

    and also take a look at http://www.clickertraining.com and watch these training videos by Kikopup: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup

    Thank you I'll be sure to look @ these if not tonight then tomorrow!

    I just wanted to thank everyone for all there help - i was getting a little worried and frustrated on what to do.

    Once the dog are getting a long I will make sure to take pics and post them. I'm very glad I found this website

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Quote Originally Posted by ladysncharms View Post
    I would cage/isolate the older dog too when you are not around, she is really thinking that she pack leader when the pack leader should be you. When caging them cage next to each other.

    LadysnCharms - http://d0eaejmzpd4l9v88kkrdq5m5wg.hop.clickbank.net/
    Sorry but that is BS... there is always hiererchy in a pack of dogs aside of the human leadership. Dogs will work out their own pecking order to deferr to when you're not around... you can tell who's who in the order usually (in my house anyway) by who goes out the door first when let out to potty... they really do go out in order unles there is a pup here that hasn't learned his place yet.

    In your situation... yuo need to realise that dogs are vocal and physical creatures. Everything your cocker is doing is totally normal as far as teaching the pup what she will and will not tolerate. When it comes to petting, make sure you touch the cocker first, then divert your attention to the pup as a way of paying respect to the pecking order they have established amongst themselves. This should help to avoid over correcting the pup on the cocker's end. If you acknowledge her when she comes up and you're paying attention to puppy, just take a second and pet her then tell her to "wait, not your turn". This will help quell any "jealousy" (which is a human emtion and dog's don't really have jealousy. What dogs have is a knowledge of what they are entitled to due to rank and position in the pack). Once your pup gets a little older and learns what the routine is then you can relax a little on this part. The point to this is that they dogs learn that it is unappreciated when one busts in while the other is getting attention. Try living with 5-9 dogs at any given time and ALL of them pining for attention from you at the same time. IF it wasn't for "not your turn" I'd have a whole lot of unhappy dogs that felt neglected. By using the command it acknowledges the other dog and permits you to continue what you're doing with the other one.

    Until it comes to blood or vet bills (which I don't see aslikely since the pup just goes and lays down after the cocker corrects him) then you really shouldn't interfear. Make sure play isn't over whelming for your cocker esp. if the pup is going to be bigger than her, teach pup NOW what is acceptable forms of play (and the cue words such as TOY, or PLAY) such as tug with toys, acceptable levels of wrestling, etc. Your pup will carry this with him into his juvenile and adult stages of life. Your cocker can't mother the pup as she never had the instinct develop since I'm sure she likely never had a litter herself. What you're seeing with all the licking and "mothering" behavior is simply social bonding and a bit of a power play. The cocker can actually use grooming as a way of "dominating" the pup and letting him know that she is the one in charge. Just make sure she doesn't go over board with it and make sure the pup isn't getting stressed by excessive grooming on the cockers part.

    Just back up each dog, reinforce the pecking order, treat the cocker first then the pup and all will be well.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonya610 View Post
    Scientists come up with all kinds of weird theories based on "observation". The Alpha theory is sketchy at best especially as it pertains to dogs.
    Again I disagree. There HAS to be a hierchy in any pack environment whether it be human or canine or water buffalo for that matter. What is static is who is in charge at what particular moment. Alpha is a fluid position in a canine pack and is more fluid amongs the females of the pack than males.

    Females are always challenging for a higher position, never happy with what they have and their rank, they always squabble amongst themselves and look for ways to advance their ranking whereas males are more laid back, don't care to feed into the political BS of the pack and usually only ever challenge eachother when the next in line sees the current alpha as weak, a bad leader or sick.

    This is why the theory of killing wolves to decrease their population doesn't work. If you kill the alpha who would be the breeding male, then you have indiscriminant breeding amongst the juvenile and sub-adult males thereby actually increasing the number of wolves in the long run.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Since we got the puppy I've been giving them equal attention. and I let the cocker outside/out the door first and when I come home I have been petting her first then the puppy also. The 1st day I came home they both jumped on me for attention so what Ive been doing is making them sit before they will get my attention and like I said I go for the older one first then the younger one.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink View Post
    Again I disagree. There HAS to be a hierchy in any pack environment whether it be human or canine or water buffalo for that matter. What is static is who is in charge at what particular moment. Alpha is a fluid position in a canine pack and is more fluid amongs the females of the pack than males.
    Maybe, but how can you observe it based on situations that might have nothing to do with any hierarchy? Like when I had that Bichon here, he ran out the door first - was he dominating Wally or was he simply just used to running out the door (because he was never taught otherwise)?

    Using single situations, to me, doesn't give an insight to who's truly on top, especially considering there may be other reasons why the interaction went like it did.

    That's why I don't bother with it. I don't care if Wally thinks he's dominating me because the door opens when he sits. To him, he might think he's controlling the situation (I sit, I get to go outside). I don't care, I'm just glad he's sitting and not bolting.

    Besides, wasn't Alpha theory derived from captured wolves and has been, at best, just weakened/significantly altered when observing wolves in their natural environment? And are dogs wolves and do they think the way wolves do?
    Last edited by KBLover; 03-19-2010 at 11:52 AM.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    I wasn't saying using one particular event is going to be able to poinpoint who's acting as alpha at that moment because to the untrained eye it's all irrelivant because you're (a collective you're not you inparticular) more likely to misread something that read it right. That's why you can't use singular experiences to determine anything pertaining to pack hierachy and have to look at the OVERALL picture of interactions in the pack (including yourself), and you will see how alpha (leader) fluctuates.

    In your case it sounds to me more like the dog wasn't attempting to dominate by running thru the door first... that to me is evidence of a dog who has no social living skills (maybe due to age, socialization levels, training, etc) and is all about "ME"... he disrespects the other pack members with his self cetered attitude and doesn't understand pecking order and pack rights. Also I never said it was a dominating thing about going thru the door first.. I said it was a good way to see just how each dog views itself in the pecking order... it can't be used as a "dominating factor" simply because a dog who was "dominating" about a door passage IMO would be guarding it and actively reinforcing that NO MAN was to pass with out his say so... THAT is a dominating gesture...not pushing past another dog/human out of turn... that's disrespect and lack of pack living knowledge. HUGE difference.

    As far as you're take on the Alpha theory... first the domestic dog is only 2 1/10ths of 1 % (*Dr. Robert K. Wayne) removed from the wild wolf so YES in most senses they do think like wolves, most domestic dogs just never developed the "killer" instinct (which will also be variable amongst domestic dog breeds. Pariah breeds may retain more "killer " instinct that your domestic poodle) so also in a sense pretty much the same personality, attitude, etc that you would see in a juvenile wolf.

    The alpha theory wasn't "debunked" perse as it was modified and completed with the wild uncaptured studies IMO. In a wild environment they were able to see that the roll of Alpha was fluid and fluctuated, whereas the theory was before that Alpha was supremely enforced thru dominant actions. Don't confuse Alpha with dominant. Alpha isn't the ultimate game of King of the Hill as it once was thought to be but realised it was more of a King for a Day mentality dependant upon who had the most to offer for the betterment of the pack overall thru GROUP cooperation for group advancement being the central thought not "brutalize everyone into following me because I'm stronger or meaner".

    IMO a scientific "study' is never complete and I don't think it discredits a theory/researcher/author if it is altered thru further study and reaserch. It would be expected that original thoughts would be disproven/modified given changes in environment for your test group (how else do you prove a theory but apply the same subject to a realm of different stimuli in different environments right?) and personally I would expect follow-up data to reflect that .

    anyway getting too far off topic here so...
    Last edited by Dog_Shrink; 03-19-2010 at 12:34 PM.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    "Dogs have been dramatically altered due to human influence; their bodies, mating habits, family structures and support systems have evolved into something completely different from the wolf yet we are supposed to believe their thought processes and their social expectations have remained frozen in time? "
    YES because when you're talking about a primitive primary core basic mentality function it would stay frozen in time... you can not change primal programming and in any canid it is a pack mentality by programming not desire... the other stuff you rambled on about is nit picking biological functions (which will also fluctuate naturally dependant on many environmental factors). In a captive environment (whether it's thru domestication or wild captivity in a zoo) environment is going to cause the lesser programming to ADAPT and change to suit survival needs... evolution. The core elemets stay the same.
    Last edited by Dog_Shrink; 03-19-2010 at 12:59 PM.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    Realize that the jealousy you speak of isn't the same sort of jealousy humans experience.

    If you define jealousy as "I want what you have!", then yes, dogs most certainly do experience jealousy. Just as how dogs will fight each other for a bone, your older dog is pushing the puppy away for what she wants, which in your case is human attention.

    If you think your older dog is thinking, "Boy, I'm so jealous of the puppy because he's cuter and gets more attention than me! I have to figure out a way to get back at him!", then no, your older dog is not jealous like that.

    Learn to teach both of them deferential behavior. They don't get attention by throwing temper tantrums. The only way they get what they want is by being respectful of your space and being calm.

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    Re: Older dog jealous of new puppy

    I'm happy to announce today they were getting along and playing together so the cocker is getting used to the puppy it is just taking time. and thank you everyone for the advice.

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