Submissive urination = manipulation?
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Thread: Submissive urination = manipulation?

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    Senior Member Corinthian's Avatar
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    Submissive urination = manipulation?

    A dog with a history of defensive and fearful aggression with one documented defensive bite. Brad Pattison (At the end of my leash / In the dog house) enters the household and the fearful dog responds by barking. Brad sees this as a challenge to his 'alpha position'. What kind of pathetic grown man sees a dog as a threat to his social status?

    Pattison, like always, responds aggressively with menacing gestures, yelling and moving toward the dog. Once the dog is cornered at the end of a hallway the dog can no longer control himself. It urinates on floor.

    Pattison then tells us that the dog is trying to "manipulate" the situation in order to get escape the "consequence"

    Would you act aggressively toward a fearful dog to the point you elicit submissive urination? Is this an approach you would allow someone to take with your dog?

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    Senior Member Westhighlander's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
    Once the dog is cornered at the end of a hallway the dog can no longer control himself. It urinates on floor.
    Manipulation implies that the dog is trying to control the situation.

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    Senior Member winniec777's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
    Is this an approach you would allow someone to take with your dog?
    Not likely. If he tried that with my dog I would hit him so hard it would kill his whole family (any Diner fans?). This guy proves himself to be a jerk again and again. Pfffft.

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    Senior Member Cracker's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Wow. Which episode was this? I've seen him be a jerk before (as we all have Im sure) but this one really takes the cake.

    If anyone did that to my dog, or to anyone else's in my vicinity they'd be seeing the alpha end of my fist.
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    Senior Member Dakota Spirit's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Jerkiness aside...I really don't understand the logic with these people. How can pee possibly equal manipulation?

    The dog IS trying to escape the 'consequences' yes, but that's the natural response. There are two choices when a dog is cornered...he either defends himself or backs down and tries to submit and/or placate the aggressor. What, Brad would have preferred the dog take option A and bite him in the face?

    People really are just beyond stupid sometimes



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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    That poor dog isn't trying to manipluate or escape consequences... it's an appeasement gesture... a calming signal. He was trying to tell that asstard that he got the point... no more forward threat was needed. He probably sent that jerk a ton of other appeasement gestures before that that he totally overlooked or didn't know what they were being the asshole he is...

    Poor dog... that man should be SHOT. They should line Casear right up along next to him. Another waste of skin that doesn't know crap about animal behavior.

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    Senior Member qingcong's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Pattison is a piece of junk with no dignity and respect for another living entity. Please do not compare him to Cesar Millan, who despite how you feel about his dog techniques, at least treats people with respect.

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    Senior Member Shaina's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Sure it's manipulation...in the sense that trying to talk someone out of what you are pretty sure is an attempt to kill out is manipulation.

    The knee-jerk reaction that all manipulation is bad is silly. I sent my brother a birthday card...I don't expect one back on my birthday, nor do I expect thanks. I would just like him to feel a bit loved and remembered on his birthday. Therefore, I am manipulating him to feel good about himself.

    How very evil and conniving of me.



    To answer the question, no I would not act aggressively to a fearful dog. For that matter, I would not act aggressively to an aggressive dog. Or any other dog, unless it was quite literally a matter of self-defense.

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    Pai
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    I swear to gawd, some of these 'trainers' are completely paranoid and think dogs are constantly plotting to overthrow their authority. It's pathetic.

    "Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~Roger Caras

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    Senior Member Corinthian's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaina View Post
    To answer the question, no I would not act aggressively to a fearful dog. For that matter, I would not act aggressively to an aggressive dog. Or any other dog, unless it was quite literally a matter of self-defense.
    I've never understood the need of TV trainers to induce aggression in order to prove how superior they are.


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    NRB
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
    Would you act aggressively toward a fearful dog to the point you elicit submissive urination? Is this an approach you would allow someone to take with your dog?
    No. Never.

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    Senior Member Xeph's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Please do not compare him to Cesar Millan, who despite how you feel about his dog techniques, at least treats people with respect.
    While I am Anti-Cesar training methods, I VERY much agree with this! Cesar at least respects the people he works with.
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    Senior Member KBLover's Avatar
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    Re: Submissive urination = manipulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
    Pattison then tells us that the dog is trying to "manipulate" the situation in order to get escape the "consequence"
    Yeah, the dog is trying to avoid unpleasantness that it feels is impending. However, it's not by manipulation, but by saying "I'm pathetic and not worth your time to kill/harm! Please, leave me be!"

    The dog is in a social situation he/she finds extremely threatening and overwhelming, is fearing the outcome of the situation and is trying to defuse it with one of the strongest signals he/she knows.



    Quote Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
    Would you act aggressively toward a fearful dog to the point you elicit submissive urination? Is this an approach you would allow someone to take with your dog?

    Absolutely not in answer to both questions. If a trainer did this to Wally, I'd pick him up (Wally, not the trainer), and walk out immediately.

    As for myself, I'll make my point to him without going that far. Usually a snap of my fingers and a sharp stare and point will get his attention. If not, a few steps towards him almost always does the trick. As soon as I get his attention, I back off and give him a direction.

    I'd never push him to the point where the only action he thinks he can take to appease/please me is peeing in submission. I've seen him do that (when he first got here) and it was sad. No way I'd do that to him myself.

    To other fearful dogs, or dogs that were clearly afraid/wary of me for whatever reason. I'd back off immediately and try to send calming signals to the dog. If Wally's with me, I'd make him lie down and stay at a distance away from the dog - blocking him (Wally) if need be. Basically, I want the dog to calm down enough to keep his/her wits about him/her and keep communicating/sending signals, or just feel safe enough to go about his/her business without fear of us.

    BTW, never seen this TV trainer before. Never heard of him until this post.
    Last edited by KBLover; 12-11-2009 at 03:26 AM.

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