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yes
no
some of them
i disagree completely
Oh what the hey...
I think most of the stuff Cesar does is dangerous and harmful.
Seen this one? A little hard to watch...
http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...ideos/05198_00
"Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance."
Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21
It is hard to watch......the way the dog is ripping Cesar's shirt....
If your talking about how he is handling him...I see nothing wrong when the dog is lunging at him and bitting his arm. There is no hitting, the dog is fine, and Cesar isn't even talking.
I feel bad for Cesar and the owner in the video. The dog needs some manners.
GONE
Is that a dog? You sure? Maybe part dog.
That's the thing that I don't like about him: he refuses to consider behavioral characteristics of a dogs breed into account. To him a Rottweiler should act the same as a Basset Hound.
A couple of random thoughts: a lot of people seem heavily invested in denying that dominance behavior exists in dogs, while even Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell acknowledge it.
Where I have a problem with Cesar's acolytes (more than Cesar himself) is where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. People watch his shows and start applying his concepts and methods--mostly with a less-than-perfect understanding. They see their 10 week old puppy step in her water dish and think: "OMG, SHE"S TRYING TO DOMINATE ME!" Maybe not exactly...but not too far off in some cases.
I didn't see the whole segment, so my comments about it will be based on what I have seen of his show. I wouldn't swagger into that dog's life and start trying to teach him manners. This is something I've seen Cesar do a number of times. I'd put the dog into semi-isolation with me as his only contact--canine or human. The first week or so he'd only see me when I brought his food and water. Gradually, I'd spend some non communicative time with him and build up to somewhat normal interaction. The goal would be to develop a bit of trust and some rapport with the dog.
I don't know whether Cesar's assessment of the dog's behavior is the correct one. I don't know whether that particular drill is the only way to deal with that particular dog. I don't that it isn't either. I will say that if the dog can't get past that form of acting out, he's already a dead dog. I'm inclined to believe that he can get past it, and I'd be prepared to go a lot harsher than that before I'd slip a needle into him.
I suspect one or more humans are responsible for that dog's behavior, and that the problem never should have gotten that bad. I don't know the dog's history, though.
Harrise: please note that I have prudently avoided the "Culling" thread. Have the smelling salts ready if I change my mind on that.
Of course, it's always a trade off when working in a team of any kind, imo.
It's been said that the best leaders just "get the ball rolling" so to speak and then just let the followers do their thing to get the job done and then the leader say "good job, guys!"
After all, a good leader will realize what you do with Bolo - sometimes they have skills you don't, so bring them out, develop them, and guide their use.
I think it follows with the canine world - the only difference is the skill-sets involved. Instead of playing football and throwing and tackling, it's scenting and tracking, or jumping and weaving, or just doing various tricks for fun.
Like an agility team - we humans probably could never run a course in 45 seconds - be we also know how the course is laid out, what paths to take to shave a few seconds off, etc, and we have to tell them when to start and which way to go. So to me, unless the dog knows the course by memory and has the self-discipline to do it, she needs a handler to guide her skills. To me, guiding is leading. It's directing actions - even if it's in a fun and energetic way
I think leadership has the same sort of overly-bad connotation as punishment does. Like when people "lead" their dogs, they just are barking out orders to them and the dog just complies. I don't think that's the highest order of leadership (or even good leadership), either for humans or dogs. It's just that dogs often have less inclination to say "I quit" or "I'm not going to do that!" unlike we humans
Last edited by KBLover; 02-16-2009 at 09:54 AM.
That's a perfect example of why not to use physical punishment. Cesar kicks the dog for doG knows what, the dog reflexes with a bite (and why wouldn't he), Cesar chokes the dog, the dog feeling threatened continues to lunge and bite, then once the dog suffers sufficient oxygen debt Cesar forces him to submit.
And this is somehow the dog's fault? Cesar got exactly what he wanted I don't know how I could feel sorry for him. I do feel sorry for the owner that their dog had to be subjected to that. What a great way to escalate an agitated dog...kick him. Good job Cesar.
While I certainly don't subscribe to all of Cesar's methods I think some of the things he says have a lot of validity. We do tend to humanize dogs and the fact is that while they're awesome and amazing companion animals, they're still just animals and they don't see the world through human eyes. They don't perceive things the way humans do and we can't apply a lot of methods we use to teach humans to dogs.
We should make dogs work for things. (I think.) I think we should teach our dogs that we're the leader and they follow our cues. I would like my dogs to ultimately react to me and not vice versa.
It's obvious why his methods are controversial, but they do work for him. I don't know that they'd work on every single dog, but they do work for him. Part of the problem is the show is packaged for TV. They take a problem dog and solve all his problems in 20 minutes. People start to think that's reality when it really isn't.
To call that a "kick" is to seriously stretch the definition. I wouldn't have done that to a reactive dog who doesn't know me from Adam, but I don't see it as punitive at all.
I have watch most of Cesar's shows as well as Victoria Stillwell's. While I think positive reinforcement training works well with most dogs, I am having my doubts it works with dogs that are in the "red zone". Victoria works mostly with less aggressive cases but I've noticed that since her US debut her cases have been with more aggressive dogs. From watching these two trainers, it seems Cesar gets better results. Victoria's cases with aggressive dogs seem to end with only some of the issues resolved. Cesar does seem to have a gift of dealing with aggressive dogs. I personally like him and think he does have a lot to offer. A dog with blank slate, I would choose Victoria but in more aggressive cases, I would go with Cesar.
Marsh Muppet
Where I have a problem with Cesar's acolytes (more than Cesar himself) is where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. People watch his shows and start applying his concepts and methods--mostly with a less-than-perfect understanding. They see their 10 week old puppy step in her water dish and think: "OMG, SHE"S TRYING TO DOMINATE ME!" Maybe not exactly...but not too far off in some cases.
I love it, I never realized until I joined DF that there were so many killer puppies ranging from 8 to 16 weeks of age.
In 50 years we probably have had 10 litters of pups split between GSPs and GSDs and if I knew about this dominance program then, I would have given all owners a baseball bat as it's much easier to be dominant while swinging a baseball bat at very small puppies.
Dinosaur Dog Trainer
I thought you didn't favor games of semantics.At any rate, he kicked the dog for a reason, and by definition the kick is a punishment. Those who favor Cesar will call it some other euphemism for punishment like a "correction" for attention, but of course they would...they favor Cesar. Now whether the kick was punitive or not certainly can be debated, though I doubt anyone could ascertain that after one 30 minute made-for-TV episode.
Here's the difference between what Cesar does and what someone who uses learning theory does with "red zone" dogs.
Cesar forces the dog to submit while in the "red zone". A dog who submits to force can often appear compliant when he's just shutting down. A learning theorist would see this is as the worst possible training scenario, and manage the dog away from the trigger, where the dog can be under threshold. And through a process of desensitization and counter conditioning alternate behaviors can be reinforced. Not made for TV, but positive reinforcement training worse on "red zone" dogs too.
The idea that "positive reinforcement training" doesn't work on dogs that need to be "rehabilitated" comes from those who employ dominance theory, and frankly they are wrong.
Last edited by Curbside Prophet; 02-16-2009 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Our of pure curiousity...what is a dog 'shutting down'? How do you tell if it's shutting down, just tired, or submitting? Thanks for any info.I thought you didn't favor games of semantics.
Here's the difference between what Cesar does and what someone who uses learning theory does with "red zone" dogs.
Cesar forces the dog to submit while in the "red zone". A dog who submits to force can often appear compliant when he's just shutting down. A learning theorist would see this is as the worst possible training scenario, and manage the dog away from the trigger, where the dog can be under threshold. And through a process of desensitization and counter conditioning alternate behaviors can be reinforced. Not made for TV, but positive reinforcement training worse on "red zone" dogs too.
The idea that "positive reinforcement training" doesn't work on dogs that need to be "rehabilitated" comes from those who employ dominance theory, and frankly they are wrong.
GONE
I would like to see it in action, positive reinforcement on a red zone case. I just haven't seen one yet.
Displacement behavior.
Submission is voluntary and not after force. A tired dog starts from a submissive position, and he's panting and or resting from the start. A dog that shuts down gives up on innate behavior after being forced to do so.How do you tell if it's shutting down, just tired, or submitting?
I'm not sure why the video isn't working on our forum so just double click it to go to youtube.
Last edited by Curbside Prophet; 02-16-2009 at 11:46 AM.
The Biggest Problem I have with Cesar and his method of addressing ''red zone'' dogs is this...
It doesn't address the ROOT and CAUSE of the problem....meaning that the problem is still there...just cowed into a corner and the dog is given a new problem that temporarily overrides the aggression issue..fear of being subdued.
Take my dog for example...
problem: She views other dogs as hunting quarry.
solution: redirect the hunting instinct towards an acceptable outlet.
She is still able to express her natural instincts to hunt and stalk and ''kill'' but now she knows what to hunt and stalk and kill that will earn her praise and reward.
Then you would never use most of Cesar's methods.
In the wolf packs, Father is in charge, Mother is next and all their siblings make up the rest of the pack. NO ONE breeds except the father and mother. No one fights about breeding. That only happens in the loosely organized social groups of dogs.
Last edited by BidDawgs; 02-16-2009 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Oh...sorry but I didn't really understand what you said. If the behavior was already given up by the dog, say chewing on the furniture, then the dog's owner wouldn't need to force the issue, it's already dealt with. Forcing it over and over would be abusive and probably cause a dog to shut down (if dogs can really 'shut down').
I guess i just have never seen a dog shut down so I'm trying to define the term. I've seen very submissive and scared dogs, but never have a seen a dog in a shut down. Do they just stop? Do they have a glazed over look? Lol, I'm just trying to understand.
If anything, I would think Cesar gets more to the source because he does concentrate on the phychologoical aspect. He finds out what triggers the aggression and fear and works from there. Redirecting seems to be more a masking method. It helps, no doubt, but if you direct a dog from killing ducks to playing a game, you never really teach it to like ducks, just to do something else.
GONE
Sometimes we forget that ITS A TV SHOW! It amazes me how people think Cesar enters a house of a red zone aggressive dog and 20 minutes later he is leaving with the dog a perfect angel. It just doesn't work like that. You don't see the many many hours with several trainers that goes into "rehabilitating" that dog.
Cesar is a very good actor. He has great screen presence. He is a so so trainer at best. Everything he says isn't wrong but a good portion of it is. In general his methods are outdated and unnecessarily rough and sometimes harmful to the dog.
Victoria Stilwell is 10 times the dog trainer that Cesar is and she uses no cruelty in her training. Cesar could learn a lot from her and would be a better trainer if he would.
Also, the video, I am a little confused by that as well.
By the women feeding treats, doesn't that reinforce the bad behavior, kind of like saying, "Goodboy for being aggresive towards me."
Then later, it seems he is following her around, but to me it looks like the dog has just learned to associate her with food, not repsect. Also, as the video stated, he would need to do this with everyone he meets. It seems hes just associating everyone with food, not the attitude that humans are safe. He also looks unsure about the women, until he catches sight of the treats, then happily walks beside her, watching the treat hand the whole time.
This seems to just mask the problem. He should be able to stop the dog from getting in a red zone case level, in the first place.
Victoria Stilwell..........TV show.
Last edited by K9companions; 02-16-2009 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
GONE
The problem I have with Milan is that he doesn't do the basics. He doesn't take medical histories which could easily explain the underlying cause(s) for the behavior.
He doesn't ask about diet....and, yes, some people think it's OK to feed their dogs Chinchilla food because it's so much cheaper and wonder why their dogs destroy the garbage cans, eat paper, everything in sight and are testy all the time.
He doesn't refer clients to seek medical help or qualified behaviorist guidance when needed and he wonders why he has failures in his training. Yes, he readilly admits he has had failures but, he hasn't changed his ways.
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