please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail
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Thread: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

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    please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    I have asked about this before and have been scouring the internet, I am going to call around to some vets tomorrow, but if anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
    I am getting a puppy from a good breeder, she health tests, has been breeding for a long time, she raises the puppies in her home. The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)
    One of the puppies in a litter of five was born without a tail. she has everything else in working order and the breeder has not seen this before. The vet she works with says the puppy seems fine. I am totally fine with the no tail if that is the only problem. Are there other problems associated with this? The breeder is a few hours away, we are going next week to see the dogs and make our final decision between this one, or her sister. thanks, guys

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by tallmom11 View Post
    I have asked about this before and have been scouring the internet, I am going to call around to some vets tomorrow, but if anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
    I am getting a puppy from a good breeder, she health tests, has been breeding for a long time, she raises the puppies in her home. The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)
    Sorry - going to comment on the mix. If you 'know' then why on earth are you supporting mutt breeding?

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    Senior Member Pawzk9's Avatar
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by tallmom11 View Post
    I have asked about this before and have been scouring the internet, I am going to call around to some vets tomorrow, but if anyone can help me here, I would appreciate it.
    I am getting a puppy from a good breeder, she health tests, has been breeding for a long time, she raises the puppies in her home. The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)
    One of the puppies in a litter of five was born without a tail. she has everything else in working order and the breeder has not seen this before. The vet she works with says the puppy seems fine. I am totally fine with the no tail if that is the only problem. Are there other problems associated with this? The breeder is a few hours away, we are going next week to see the dogs and make our final decision between this one, or her sister. thanks, guys
    Natural bob tails happen in many breeds. With a mixed breed you never know what is going to pop up. In my breed, natural bob tails are common and I've never heard of it causing any problems. There's some thought that you wouldn't want to breed too many generations of NBT together, as it is a shortening of the spinal column. Even that has been partially disproven in Aussies, though it's a fact in Manx cats (but apparently not other bob tail cat breeds)

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    Super Moderator RonE's Avatar
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    The puppies are half golden retreiver(mom), half toy poodle. (please do not comment on the mix, I know, I know)
    Since you yourself brought it, what would make you think you can pre-screen the types of opinions you're going to get on an open forum?

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    sigh. nevermind. I put the parent breeds in because if I didn't, people would ask for more info. And everything else I have researched the answers come back "this is normal in Corgis" It's not a corgi. I just wanted the health answer, not a lecture. I searched and searched and ended up finding a mix of dog that would be generally sweet, good with kids, and shed less. If anyone wants to answer the original question, that would be appreciated.

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    Super Moderator RonE's Avatar
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Somebody already did, in post #3.

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    Senior Member Pawzk9's Avatar
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by RonE View Post
    Since you yourself brought it, what would make you think you can pre-screen the types of opinions you're going to get on an open forum?
    perhaps s/he is hoping that people answer her question and not question her ethics? Probably not going to happen, of course. I'm not a fan of designer "breeds", but as they go, there are some Golden/Poodle breeders who DO health test, have a national organization and a breeder's code of ethics. If that's the sort of dog people want to own, it's really not my business to make judgements about their choice. All breeds started out as mixes. 60 years ago, my breed was a mish/mash landrace of herding breeds. Herr Doberman intentionally mixed breeds to get what he wanted. So did Captain Von Stephanitz. So did the founders of many of our current breeds.

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    I will toss this out there for consideration....

    ..in kittens that are born with out tails, there are somtimes no bowel sphincter control. Someone here found a kitten and was bottle raising it and it ended up being PTS due to the lack of tail being part of the bowel problem. I do not know if that happens in dogs born without tails but it does in cats.

    I would talk to your vet before taking the puppy. I find it interesting that most "breeders" of designer breeds will tell you the vet passed all their dogs but they never give specific answers to specific questions. In this case the question is, "Does the puppy born without a tail have a possibility of other congenital defects?" If they cannot answer that question with a specific answer and more information.. then move on.

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    Senior Member Pawzk9's Avatar
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by Elana55 View Post
    I will toss this out there for consideration....

    ..in kittens that are born with out tails, there are somtimes no bowel sphincter control. Someone here found a kitten and was bottle raising it and it ended up being PTS due to the lack of tail being part of the bowel problem. I do not know if that happens in dogs born without tails but it does in cats.

    I would talk to your vet before taking the puppy. I find it interesting that most "breeders" of designer breeds will tell you the vet passed all their dogs but they never give specific answers to specific questions. In this case the question is, "Does the puppy born without a tail have a possibility of other congenital defects?" If they cannot answer that question with a specific answer and more information.. then move on.
    I'm guessing it is not a subject most vets have studied extensively. I have a friend who is a very good breeder of DDB (one of her bitches was BOS at Westminster) who has produced a few natural bobtails. Other than the fact that they were "pet quality" due to lack of tail, they've seen no problems. Here's a link that should provide you with some research and information on NBTs in dogs by people who have actually made a study of it: http://www.imgnr.com/nbt_study.htm

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    I would be wary of a breeder who is asking you to do this research instead of doing it herself. As Pawz pointed out, it's not going to be a subject everyone knows about, but it also is not your responsibility to figure it out. Her litter threw a pup with no tail...she needs to figure out what that means for the pup, for her breeding program, and for you.


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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    she didn't ask me to do it, I am just trying to make an informed decision. She has never seen this before and is evaluating the pairing. the dog has been checked by a vet twice already at 5 weeks.He hasn't seen any major problems. A lot of articles talk about no tail paired with no anus, and that isn't the case here, she potties just fine. Perhaps i will see if she can do an Xray to check the spine. The puppy doesn't just have a short, bob tail, it seems to have no tail. And yes, I really don't want to argue, I just wanted to know if this puppy can live a happy, healthy life with this birth defect, or not.

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    I have friends who bought a lab puppy with a stumpy tail (half the regular length) that has had no issues...that being said, since this pup is completely tailless I would certainly be asking for the breeder to have the pup xrayed to ensure there are not further abnormalities in the spine/hips and pelvis. I would also consider asking for an amendment to the health guarantee (assuming she has one) so that if something else comes up later due to this issue she can help with financial assistance for veterinary care. If not, I would seriously consider not getting the pup.
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    When you say she health tests, what tests do you mean?

    I agree with Cracker -- the breeder should pay for x-rays to make sure there are no abnormalities and should modify your health guarantee. Even with this, though... if I were you, I'd probably wait for the next litter and get a pup with a tail. I don't like to gamble like that.

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by FilleBelle View Post
    I would be wary of a breeder who is asking you to do this research instead of doing it herself. As Pawz pointed out, it's not going to be a subject everyone knows about, but it also is not your responsibility to figure it out. Her litter threw a pup with no tail...she needs to figure out what that means for the pup, for her breeding program, and for you.
    Shrug. I would say that it means there is a NBT gene somewhere behind one of the parent dogs. I've never seen it in goldens, but since poodles are commonly docked it may be hiding in there. I'm not sure the breeder asked her to do any research.

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by tallmom11 View Post
    .He hasn't seen any major problems.
    Does this mean he saw some minor problems? The only dog that I knew personally that was born without a tail had to be put to sleep because of bowel problems. I have known several that were born with bob tails. The bobtails had no issues other then short tails. I don't know exactly what the "breeder" is thinking but personally, I wouldn't pay for this dog. If she was trying to find the pup a good home and she checked you out to be that home, give it a try.


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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    No idea. No idea why you would make the same thread twice, stating the same thing about the mix requesting no comments as well. If this person is not willing to x-ray and explore further I would not get the dog. I at the very least wouldn't pay what I can only imagine they're asking for it.

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoseWordsAtBest View Post
    No idea. No idea why you would make the same thread twice, stating the same thing about the mix requesting no comments as well. If this person is not willing to x-ray and explore further I would not get the dog. I at the very least wouldn't pay what I can only imagine they're asking for it.
    Totally agree with this.

    Also, I want to add that they might not see any problems now, but what happens 6 months down the road and your puppy is still not potty trained because he/she has no control? Or maybe it's fine until he/she is 5 years old and then loses control of their bowel movements?

    I guess the question is, are you prepared to take care of a fecally incontinent dog for the rest of its life? The breeder wouldn't be able to tell if they puppy is "in control" of himself because it's unlikely they are potty training (I don't consider paper training the same as potty training to be in control inside a house). Puppies just go where they need to go.

    I would pass on the litter and on the breeder. Go find a breeder who does the proper health tests and is aware of the possible genes their lines might throw. A good breeder not only knows grand parents and great grandparents, but can go back 10, 15, or even 20 generations and tell you what sort of issues have popped up in the lines.
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
    Sorry - going to comment on the mix. If you 'know' then why on earth are you supporting mutt breeding?
    Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.

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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by Dog101 View Post
    Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.
    Dog101...mutts that happen from accidents are a different subject from 'designer breeds'..so no Loki is not saying they are impure or need to be eliminated. Irresponsible breeding/breeding for profit needs to be eliminated.

    Back to the subject at hand:
    What does your breeder say about xrays? No one can guarantee this pup will live a normal life..but then there are really no guarantees even with a healthy pup. If you are concerned about long term finances and the long term abilities of the dog to have a good life..well, that's up to you to decide what is a reasonable risk for you.
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    Re: please help, I really need some good info, puppy born without tail

    Quote Originally Posted by Dog101 View Post
    Hey yo Loki Love are u tellin us that you think mutts r inpure and should be eliminated. I had a mutt and he was the best dog ever. The combo is a tad weird but that's nature.
    LOL - nope. Nice try though

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