Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!
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Thread: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

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    Senior Member mylittlebecky's Avatar
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    Exclamation Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    I have some new information about PROIN (phenylpropanolamine(PPA) or Dexatrim(in humans))

    As some people may know, Dexatrim, a diet drug containing PPA was taken off the market because it caused CVA (stroke) in humans. When the veterinary community started using this drug, now called Proin, to help with urinary incontinence there was "no known correlation with CVA in dogs." (I wonder who did a study on a compounded drug that no drug company makes any money from)

    So, I was debating whether to put my little dog on Proin, my great dane has been on it for ~2years. My doctor said "here's something I found about Proin you should read before you put wala on it. I had beth [her dog] on it for years and never had any... oh shit! I bet she stroked out on me." You see beth had been on PROIN for urinary incontinence and had died ~1year ago from a stroke. Within seconds of the onset of symptoms, beth was dead. They were home and going to the car but before they could make it there she was gone. They are both vets and his clinic is literally across the street.

    I am so shocked by this. It seems like every older canine female patient seen at clinics these days is on Proin. There are other alternatives like artificial hormones (DES) and the natural hormones in in soy, but I don't think most people are given these options. It's not to say that DES is without side effects, but compare those to CVA and it seems like a better choice. Plus, we have the natural soy isoflavones to try as well (side note, I have read many great things about them and will be trying them with my dogs). Many patients on Proin aren't even having their blood pressure monitored.

    The info I saw was on VIN (so I can't link it) and it constituted of anecdotal evidence from board certified neurologists who stated that they have seen many dogs with MRI evidence of CVA with no other cause of CVA other than Proin. This, in combination with the existing info in humans, is enough to convince me. Will there ever be studies? I doubt it, because as I said earlier, this drug is compounded for very little money from several veterinary pharmacies. There is no large drug company standing behind the product in either veterinary or human medicine. I wonder why?

    My dogs will not be on this drug ever again. It is the choice a urine in the house or death. I'd rather they sleep in a cage with bedding that I can change daily (or several times a day) or put underpants on them or take them out hourly during the day and deal with it at night than to loose them. The natural estrogens in soy will be my first choice.

    PS I am an RVT and have worked in the field for 8 years in both day practice and the past two years in emergency medicine

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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Thanks for the information. I hope your dog will feel better soon !

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    Senior Member lovemygreys's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Proin is typically safe for otherwise healthy dogs. Because a drug has one effect in humans, does not mean that same effect translates to dogs (or horses or pigs or rabbits....) I wouldn't rule out the possibility of putting any of my own dogs on it that needed it (and in fact, have had them on it in the past). We've also used DES in the past. Personally, I thought DES was more effective for one of our dogs. However, when my vet first diagnosed my dog with spay incontinence and said they wanted to prescribe DES, my first question was: Is that the only option and if not, why are you choosing DES over other options. Owners should be an active participant in their dog's health care.

    Every drug has side effects. Even things as simple as an antibiotic can cause Anaphylactic shock and subsequent death if untreated. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to give my dogs anti-biotics when they need them.

    The info I saw was on VIN (so I can't link it) and it constituted of anecdotal evidence from board certified neurologists who stated that they have seen many dogs with MRI evidence of CVA with no other cause of CVA other than Proin. This, in combination with the existing info in humans, is enough to convince me. Will there ever be studies? I doubt it, because as I said earlier, this drug is compounded for very little money from several veterinary pharmacies. There is no large drug company standing behind the product in either veterinary or human medicine. I wonder why?
    The plural of ancedote is not data. I'd want to read more information....

    The lesson here is that owners need to be aware of adverse reactions to drugs prescribed by their vets and make educated decisions. After a discussion with a veterinary doctor about the risks and return on a certain med, owners can decide what they want to do. But, I don't think people should decide "I'll NEVER give Proin/Rimadyl/Cephalexin/Metacam/insert drug here" b/c some dog somewhere may have had a reaction to it.
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    Senior Member mylittlebecky's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    can i ask if, while your dog was on proin, did your vet recommend that your dog's BP be monitored or even a screening initial BP taken? where you given info about the potential for CVA?
    while possible side effects are to be expected when giving any type of drug... CVA is a very high risk to take. and as i stated earlier the potential for any type of study is very low. therefore any more info that would sway my opinion one way or the other, i believe, will never come to light. my personal decision about my personal dogs to never put them at this risk, is my decision and i feel like it is a good one.
    why did they take proheart off the market? because one of the "side effects" was death. a direct side effect. so if your dog didn't die as a result of proheart you might think they were being rash and that you thought proheart was a convenient drug, but if it was your dog that died as a result you would never ever use it on another dog regardless of it being on the market.
    urine in the house is a huge issue as far as the clientele in veterinary medicine. HUGE. if an animal is peeing in the house, it has one paw out the door. therefore if there is a risk (however slight) of death, this is probably going to be "worth it" for the vet, for the client, but i would say not for the dog.

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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    When Willow was diagnosed with spay incontinence, the vet sent us to the store to buy Dexatrim. My mom and I (totally out of our leagues, LOL) stood staring at the diet aid section for awhile, then we just shook our heads and went home. We kept her in doggy diapers whenever she was inside during the day, and put towels on her bed for nighttime. She eventually stopped leaking when she was about 8, I don't know why. So we managed without using anything. I guess that's good, if Dexatrim causes problems. We just didn't want to support the diet aid industry, we never thought of possible health problems. The vet told us that Dexatrim was safe.
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    Member melody's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    This makes since. My dog almost died last year and she was on Proin and amoxicellin. She got medicated immuine diease from one of the med's. All the vets tell me Proin is safe. My Mom's dog was on it and it caused to her to lay around and almost die. My dog cost me over $5000.00 to save her life . She keeps getting UTI due to her incontance. She cannot be on hormones due to this will increase her lilyhood of dying from the IMHD. If anyone has any suggestions on tried and true ides, please post to me. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by mylittlebecky View Post
    I have some new information about PROIN (phenylpropanolamine(PPA) or Dexatrim(in humans))

    As some people may know, Dexatrim, a diet drug containing PPA was taken off the market because it caused CVA (stroke) in humans. When the veterinary community started using this drug, now called Proin, to help with urinary incontinence there was "no known correlation with CVA in dogs." (I wonder who did a study on a compounded drug that no drug company makes any money from)

    So, I was debating whether to put my little dog on Proin, my great dane has been on it for ~2years. My doctor said "here's something I found about Proin you should read before you put wala on it. I had beth [her dog] on it for years and never had any... oh shit! I bet she stroked out on me." You see beth had been on PROIN for urinary incontinence and had died ~1year ago from a stroke. Within seconds of the onset of symptoms, beth was dead. They were home and going to the car but before they could make it there she was gone. They are both vets and his clinic is literally across the street.

    I am so shocked by this. It seems like every older canine female patient seen at clinics these days is on Proin. There are other alternatives like artificial hormones (DES) and the natural hormones in in soy, but I don't think most people are given these options. It's not to say that DES is without side effects, but compare those to CVA and it seems like a better choice. Plus, we have the natural soy isoflavones to try as well (side note, I have read many great things about them and will be trying them with my dogs). Many patients on Proin aren't even having their blood pressure monitored.

    The info I saw was on VIN (so I can't link it) and it constituted of anecdotal evidence from board certified neurologists who stated that they have seen many dogs with MRI evidence of CVA with no other cause of CVA other than Proin. This, in combination with the existing info in humans, is enough to convince me. Will there ever be studies? I doubt it, because as I said earlier, this drug is compounded for very little money from several veterinary pharmacies. There is no large drug company standing behind the product in either veterinary or human medicine. I wonder why?

    My dogs will not be on this drug ever again. It is the choice a urine in the house or death. I'd rather they sleep in a cage with bedding that I can change daily (or several times a day) or put underpants on them or take them out hourly during the day and deal with it at night than to loose them. The natural estrogens in soy will be my first choice.

    PS I am an RVT and have worked in the field for 8 years in both day practice and the past two years in emergency medicine

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    Senior Member BoxMeIn21's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    How bad is the incontinence? Have you tried fresh parsley? My vet gave that as an option instead of putting Disco on proin. She has spay incontinence and the parsley has worked very well for us.

    "Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance.
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    Senior Member mylittlebecky's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    i thought i updated this thread (guess not ). i've had great success with this bladder support supplement. there are others on the market with the same ingredients as well if you google it. i've never heard of parsley, that sounds cool, i'll have to look it up (well, i've heard of parsley).

    and if she's on any medications (or not), please always check with your veterinarian before starting a new supplement
    Last edited by mylittlebecky; 02-02-2009 at 05:54 PM.

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    Senior Member Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21 View Post
    How bad is the incontinence? Have you tried fresh parsley? My vet gave that as an option instead of putting Disco on proin. She has spay incontinence and the parsley has worked very well for us.
    How much parsley do you give and how often? I have 3 bitches on Proin here and another I co-own is on it. I'd love to get away from giving it if I could.

    I tried DES but that just didn't seem to do it for these girls.

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    Senior Member BoxMeIn21's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonshadow View Post
    How much parsley do you give and how often? I have 3 bitches on Proin here and another I co-own is on it. I'd love to get away from giving it if I could.

    I tried DES but that just didn't seem to do it for these girls.
    I believe the dosage is 1tbls fresh parsley per 65lb of dog. Since Disco is about 45lbs I usually give her just a little bit less than a tbls. I feed it to her once a day.
    Parsley works as a natural diuretic, so they empty their bladder fully each time.
    Parsley also helps with freshing up the breath.

    "Please allow me to adjust my pants, so that I may dance the good time dance.
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    Senior Member Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21 View Post
    I believe the dosage is 1tbls fresh parsley per 65lb of dog. Since Disco is about 45lbs I usually give her just a little bit less than a tbls. I feed it to her once a day.
    Parsley works as a natural diuretic, so they empty their bladder fully each time.
    Parsley also helps with freshing up the breath.
    Thanks, I'll give it a try....it certainly can't hurt. I'm going through Proin like crazy, even if I could get them down to a lower dose it would be worth it.

    Plus....hubby bought these odd little aero grow garden things....I can get parsley bulbs for them. It's better than them sitting in my laundry room growing nothing!

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    Senior Member mylittlebecky's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    my mother got her great dane completely off proin after about a month of gradually weaning her down while using the bladder support tablets above (there are many different brands with about the same ingredients). my little dog had one incidence of incontinence (that's what started this whole thing for me, my mother had been using proin for years) she's now on the natural tablets as well and never had a reoccurrence. i'll have to research parsely now.

    INGREDIENTS:Pumpkin Seed Powder,Rehmannia glutinosa Root,Wid Yam Extract,SOy Protein Extract,Corn Silk Powder,Saw Plametto Extract,Olive Leaf Extract,Vitamin b6.
    ps i want an aero garden!

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    Member melody's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    I will look into the Parsley, if my Vet starts telling others to use it he will have to up his charges as he won't make money on the meds( maybe I won't tell him-smile). I think the reason the natural supplaments work is due to the soy which works like it does on females bodies and increases the estrogin. I used the DES in the past and it worked great, but this also can lead to IMHD, which my dog has so I can't use that.
    I love this site!!! We can all learn from each other- this is so great !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mylittlebecky View Post
    my mother got her great dane completely off proin after about a month of gradually weaning her down while using the bladder support tablets above (there are many different brands with about the same ingredients). my little dog had one incidence of incontinence (that's what started this whole thing for me, my mother had been using proin for years) she's now on the natural tablets as well and never had a reoccurrence. i'll have to research parsely now.



    ps i want an aero garden!

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    Member melody's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    I found this site, it brings up not only the parsely, but other natural suggestions. I like that they suggest that you do have your vet keep an eye on your pet as well.

    http://www.katberard.com/hea_incontinence.htm

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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Just wanted to thank all of you. I was getting ready to put my puppy on Proin and this has been a huge help. I just ordered some bladder support tablets and will continue trying natural remedies until something works. Im hopeful!

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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Thanks ALL you guys for flushing out (no pun) more options for this
    Proin situation. My 100mg (50 mg twice a day) dose on my 15yr old 30 lb.mixed female is working less and less and she has been noticed to BREATHING HARD AT NIGHT while licking up the dribble - poor thing - I've been forced to take her outside around 4 am so she can come back in and sleep the rest of the night (ME TOO!!!!!!)

    I've got a call into my vet to ask for options to this stuff, but am wondering how cutting edge or wholistic or natural most vets are these days.....I think I'm going to try that Bladder Support med some of you have said seems to help.

    The heart attack story woke me up, as she has a weak heart (Ive been told) already, no need to wear it down to the possible breaking point...

    Again - thanks everyone - Amber's Dad....

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    Angry Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    Amber's Dad, I hope she is doing better and off the ProIn.
    It Kills! It helps 70% of the dogs and kills the other 30%. Jasmine was one of the 30%. In April 09 I was told she had a slight heart murmur. In July 09, Jasmine experienced slight leakage when she slept-so my "vet" prescribed ProIn. After her first dose,(and since Jasmine had never been on meds, I the unsuspecting parent trusted by Vet-she's the one with the degree-right) Jasmine's appetite declined and she became lethagic. 4 doses later I was hand feeding her just to get her to eat something. Researched this drug-saw that Jasmine should have NEVER taken the first dose! After a short bout of vomitting, diarehha, the vet tested Jasmine and she was now in kidney failure. At this point I changed vets for it seemed the more they 'did' for her, the sicker she became. On 09-04-09 I had to help her to The Rainbow Bridge.
    The day before Jasmine's first dose she was her usual, playful vibrant 13 yo 'pup' and in fairly good health for her age. The first dose changed all of this. ProIn killed her. It sucked the life right out of my sweet baby girl, day by day. My home lost a very loved, devoted furbaby who's only request for 13 years was food, water, shelter and love. And I helped kill her.
    I hope you have resarched other alternatives.

    Cheryl and Angel Jasmine

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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    I only wish I had read these postings and RESEARCHED about Proin a month ago! My rottweiler was leaking at age 9, and the vet prescribed PROIN for her. It never dawned on me to at least look it up, I mean, it was prescribed by a VET...she would never give my dog a med that had a side effect of STROKE!

    My Angel Nala was very healthy, went for walks every day-good appetite, no problems cept' for the leaking (had I known about the SIDE EFFECTS of STROKE) I would have used diapers at night...
    0n 1/27/10 she started BREATHING HEAVY, and collapsed outside, no pulse... No warning, lights out. Of course I cannot prove the PROIN was the fault...but this forum cites some other very similiar cases. It may not happen the 1st, 7th or 50th dose, but had I known that it had EVER happened I would have taken her off it immediately. I am just heartbroken, what a loss of a wonderful friend.
    Last edited by nalalasmom; 02-12-2010 at 09:42 PM.

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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    nalalasmom.
    I am so sorry.
    It pains me to hear of another loss to the killer drug ProIn.
    Please: contact Pegasus Lab In Pensacola FL and advise them of your loss (make sure you receive a case number), send an adverse reaction report to the FDA, and file a complaint with the Board of Veterinary Medicine in your State, tell your friends, family about the importance of receiving and reading a Client Information Sheet before giving any prescription.

    Please visit my Beloved Jasmine and read her story: http://RainbowsBridge.com/residents/...1/Resident.htm

    My thoughts and prayers are with you as you mourn your loss.

    Hugs

    Cheryl and Angel Jasmine

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    Senior Member GroovyGroomer777's Avatar
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    Re: Is your dog on PROIN? READ THIS!

    omg my Jiggy has been on Proin for 3 years...I had no idea....thank you for this thread...I am throwing that garbage away.

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