Tear staining, a Real solution
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Thread: Tear staining, a Real solution

  1. #1
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    Tear staining, a Real solution

    I have 6 toy poodles and a pekingese. After many attempt to remove the frustrating and irritating staining on two of my dogs, I ran across angel eyes. I read the main ingredient, tylosin, and did some research on it. What I found is listed below. But, first let me tell you my personal experience.

    First of all, tear staining IS a problem contrary to what the vets think. It causes hardening of the hair around the eyes which is very uncomfortable for the dogs, and cosmetically, the dogs just don't look good, which can change the way they are treated and or their sellability, and/or the amount of pride in the owner which I believe the dogs can sense.

    Second, I have purchased tylan 40 and used it on my problem dogs. After a few weeks, I cut the stains off and they stayed away! Their breathe smelled much better, and they looked much better. After 6-9 months, one dog started staining again, so I gave them both another dose, and have yet to have any more problem in about a year.

    The tylosin is bitter, and the dogs don't like it. In order to get it down them, I gave them some human food (I know, shame on me). I would scramble an egg, and since green beans and parsley are suggested natural remedies, I added them to the egg with the tylan 40. I used about half a teaspoon for my 6 pound toy poodles for 3-4 weeks. In my opinion it is an absolute miracle cure.

    Last, let me say this, Tylosin is often packaged as tylan 40, such as acetaminophen is packaged as tylenol. According to the angel eyes web site

    "Angels' Eyes is a product that cosmetically eliminates unsightly tear stains, beard stains and paw stains caused by excessive licking. which eliminates any Ptyrosporin (Red Yeast), a bacterial infection.
    Ingredients: 100% Pure Beef Liver and Tylosin as tartrate.
    For the first 3 months Angels’ Eyes MUST be given daily. Angels’ Eyes is very safe. There are no reports of toxicity with long term use and Angels’ Eyes is safe short term even if overdosed. Widely used within the showring circuit"

    Upon further research, I found that angel eyes has been around for years, and is used by numerous people on their dogs, as well as by breeders and the showring circuit. While they have a very low percent of complaints that it didn't work, they have never had any complaint filed against them for any side effects regarding a dogs health. While the FDA has not approved this drug for dogs, Their tests would not include nearly as many participants as have already used this product with no ill side effects. The absolute only bad side effect I have been able to find of this drug used on dogs is below

    Tylosin may cause falsely elevated values of AST and ALT when using colormetric assay.
    And here is a vet's explanation for that
    It just means that if you have blood work done on the dog the medication may make a couple of the findings show a false high reading making it appear the dog has a liver problem or an inflammation when it doesn't really have one.
    ALT is short for alanine aminotransferase (previously known as SGPT) and this is an enzyme found in liver cells.
    AST is short for aspartate aminotransferase, (previously known as SGOT) and it is a similar enzyme that is found in many cells, including liver, muscle, and heart and raised levels may indicate inflammation.
    So the med may make these show a false positive.
    The implication would be you might treat for a disease that wasn't there

    But, keep in mind, that angel eyes is tylosin AND beef liver. It would be my guess that the beef liver is causing these false readings.

    If you do decide to use any form of tylosin, be sure to inform your vet if they do blood work.

    Below is my findings on Tylosin, what it does, why it is safe, and why it is not precribed by vets.

    Dogs produce clear tears regularly. Sometimes, dogs can have problems with excessive tearing due to a blocked tear duct or ingrown eye lash, or hair getting into the eyes. Sometimes teething can cause excessive tearing too. If the fur around the eyes or mouth stay wet for a prolonged period of time, they become a breeding ground for yeast and bacteria. One of the most common yeast infections is Ptyrosporin or Red Yeast which causes a deep reddish-brown stain. Low grade bacterial infections in the tear ducts are also common and may cause excess tearing and staining.

    Once a ptyrosporin infection begins, it oftens gets into the eyes, and can eventually cause an oral infection. This can cause bad breath. The most common evidence of an oral yeast infection is red staining on areas that are not naturally wet, but are often licked, like the paws and sides of the mouth.

    As you can see, having tear staining is not natural or healthy, but caused by an infection. Without any infection, the tears would exist but there would be no colored stain.

    Unlike Tetracycline which is a broad-spectrum antibiotic Tylosin is a macrolide antibiotic similar to erythromycin and is considered as narrow-spectrum because it is active against only a few specific bacteria, therefore it will not develop imbalance or resistance in the animal’s immune system. Since Tylosin is narrow spectrum it does not correct any recognized health problems in dogs. Tear staining and red yeast infections are not considered health problems because they do not lead to any damage to the body that the vet will need to treat, so it is treated as a mere inconvenient cosmetic problem.

    The fact that Tylosin is not used for any ailment that dogs have is a good thing if you are worried about the dog becoming immune. If the dog gets ill, the vet will not prescribe Tylosin to him. Therefore, if he became immune to it, it would not be a health problem. The only problem would be that tylosin would no longer work on tear staining.

    I have spoken to 2 veteranarians that I know personally about this. They both said that any vet would be leary of recommending anything to a client if it is not approved by the fda, because if anything did happen it would fall back on them. If it was fda approved, they could use that as a legal arguement. Off the record, both of them think the FDA should approve it, and both of them do not think it would cause any harm.

    If you are interested, do some research yourself. I bought 8 oz of Tylan 40 powder from the internet, and I haven't used 1/4 of the jar yet. It is sold in several places on the net, and the 8oz jar costs about $15 USD.

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Quote Originally Posted by porshiana View Post
    Second, I have purchased tylan 40 and used it on my problem dogs. After a few weeks, I cut the stains off and they stayed away! Their breathe smelled much better, and they looked much better. After 6-9 months, one dog started staining again, so I gave them both another dose, and have yet to have any more problem in about a year.

    If you are interested, do some research yourself. I bought 8 oz of Tylan 40 powder from the internet, and I haven't used 1/4 of the jar yet. It is sold in several places on the net, and the 8oz jar costs about $15 USD.
    I can't tell you how much research I have been doing but I cannot find a dose for Tylosin. I have used Angel Eyes in the past and find Tylosin would be much for cost effective.

    I think to get it down a dog I would like to purchase empty capsules from a health food store and put some of the powder in it. I need to find out how much. Do you have a clue about this? The dog in question is 10 lbs.

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    Senior Member flipgirl's Avatar
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    I used Angel Eyes and it did nothing for my dog's tear stains. And I don't like the fact that it is an antibiotic because your dog will eventually become immune to it and also because antibiotics kill good bacteria too.

    I started homecooking my food and giving her filtered water. Her tear stains vanished. Now I can tell when the filter needs changing - when her stains start reappearing!

    Tear stains are not always caused by an infection. It could also be caused by the mineral level in your water or by an allergy to an ingredient in the food you are feeding. Sometimes beet pulp, found in some kibble as a filler, can cause the red stains.

    I'm just sharing my own experience with AE; I'm not saying it won't work for your dog. If it is an infection then it will probably work. I'm just suggesting that it could be something else other than an infection.

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    Senior Member poodleholic's Avatar
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    I have Poodles, and my male is a very light cream. When I got him, he had the red staining. Distilled water with unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar took care of it, by changing the ph. It's easy to avoid any hardening of the tearing matter by flushing the eyes with sterile saline solution, and wiping the area with a clean cloth. The saline solution keeps the skin/hair clean, keeping it from harboring bacteria. Daily hygiene will prevent built-up gunk, which gets hard.

    Tearing is not always caused by infection, so using an antibiotic is not something I would use unless an infection was diagnosed. Allergies are often the culprit, but irritation of the eyes from hair can also create a problem.

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    It is natural for dogs to produce clear tears. There are numerous reasons for them to produce excessive CLEAR tears. However, there is only one bacteria that causes red staining, ptyrosporin. Without having a Ptyrosporin infection, the tears would be completely clear. There are other infections that dogs can get in their eyes, but these produce yellow and green mucus, not red staining. Allergies minerals and such can cause her to tear a lot. They do not cause the fur to turn red, clear tears that are bacteria free do not turn the fur red. This is the waste product (feces if you will) of the ptyrosporin bacteria. If you have red staining, there is no other reason.

    Ptyrosporin is like mold. It is in the air. If you leave bread out, mold will grow on it. If your dogs fur around her eyes are constantly wet, ptyrosporin will grow in it.

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Hi Porshiana

    A well written article, much of which I agree with, but my understanding of the problem is slightly different-

    1. Angels glow was on the market before angels eyes- folklore says that the makers of angels eyes used to work for angels glow and then fell out and set up AE. So the following statement on their site is false

      "Angels' Eyes®. is the first product specifically developed for BOTH DOGS & CATS to eliminate unsightly tearstains from the inside out!"

      If anything it is the second product. Perhaps that is why they are being sued by Angels Glow, AE in turn are suing the makers of Clear Tears.




    2. "Angels Eyes...eliminates any Ptyrosporin (Red Yeast), a bacterial infection."

      Partially true- The tylosin kills the bacteria that would otherwise bond with the oxidising metallic elements in the tears. The enzyme that is the building block of the red yeast is the result of this bonding. So to halt the yeast you need to either kill the bacteria or oxidise the metallic elements before they are secreted in the tears or saliva. Keeping the hair dry would also have the same effect.




    3. "the FDA has not approved this drug for dogs"

      No government in the world has approved any of these products because none of the aforementioned makers has ever applied for approval- the costs are too high and it seems likely that approval would not be granted. I think that one of the main concerns is that the tylosin is still present in the urine and feces, and may result in cross species resistance.

      Technically none of these products is legal. European authorities started to clamp down on the sales of these products early 2008 and the rumour mill says that the FDA might follow suit. To date they have turned a blind eye as there are bigger fish to deal with.

      When researching tylosin I spoke to Elanco the inventors of tylan. To the best of their knowledge it is not legal anywhere in the world for use as a tear stain preventer. Further they are aware that most resellers hide the fact that it is an antibiotic- thereby breaking even more laws.




    4. "Since Tylosin is narrow spectrum it does not correct any recognized health problems in dogs"

      Tylosin has been used for other purposes, for example, to fight outbreaks of diarrhea in dogs.

      Tylan was developed in the early 60's to treat respiratory problems in poultry. It was whilst testing on other animals that it was noted that it helped with tear stains.

      It is still used to fight diseases in animals but is no longer legal for use as a growth promoter (other than in the USA and Canada).

      Please be aware that it is fatal to horses!!!



    5. "any vet would be leary of recommending anything to a client if it is not approved by the fda, because if anything did happen it would fall back on them."

      I don't know about the USA but in the UK vets can technically prescribe tylosin to dogs under the "cascading rule"- if they have exhausted all approved methods first they are allowed to try alternatives. that said, it is true that many would fear prosecution too much to prescribe it for what they see as a cosmetic problem. Some do though.




    6. "There are no reports of toxicity with long term use"

      This is only because there is NO long term research. It is true though that dogs can tolerate very high doses in the short term.




    7. "Once a ptyrosporin infection begins, it often gets into the eyes, and can eventually cause an oral infection. This can cause bad breath. The most common evidence of an oral yeast infection is red staining on areas that are not naturally wet, but are often licked, like the paws and sides of the mouth."

      Again, I agree in part that both the eye stains and the other coat stains are the result of the yeast. Again this is the result of the bacteria in the tears and saliva bonding with the metallic elements. It is not necessarily the infection travelling down the face to the mouth and then to the licked areas.




    I used to use Angels eyes but had to stop when it was declared illegal. I did feel a little guilty about using it in the long term. Of all the antibiotics this is the only one that I was willing to give to my boys.Fortunately my supplier Bichon Hotel- I now joke with them that they were my drug dealer or pushers- was actively trialling a new natural product at the time later to be called Angels Delight.

    They explained that no legal product could kill the bacteria effectively so Angels delight works by oxidising the iron deposits inside the body and thus the bacteria has nothing to bond with (ie food) and so no enzyme and red yeast.

    Other than sharing the word "Angels" the other similarity is that it wasn't developed to clear tear stains. It was designed to improve the health of dogs and cats and to help with a range of conditions such as: slipping patella, cataracts, bowl conditions etc.. Again, as with tylan it was noted that it got rid of the "dreaded red yeast tear stains".

    So in conclusion the cheapest "guaranteed" cure is tylosin and the only one that is 100% legal and will also improve your dog's health is Angels Delight.
    Last edited by hungover; 12-30-2008 at 04:54 PM. Reason: layout

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    Senior Member briteday's Avatar
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    I've used all of the mentioned remedies and nothing stops the staining in my dogs. Our vet tells me that as the toy breeds are selectively bred to shorten the muzzle it is having an effect on the anatomy of the tear ducts. Our dogs do not have the red staining indicative of red yeast, just bown staining and constantly watery eyes. Upon close examination by the vet he noticed that their tear ducts are unusually small and therefore become easily clogged. He suggested cleaning their eye area with saline contact solution 1-3 times per day. Otherwise there is really nothing much else to be done. And, following his suggestion, the dogs still have a bit of mild brown staining (I can't catch all the tears from their eyes as they tear constantly 24/7) but the saline does help with keeping the area clean and free of debris.
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Quote Originally Posted by flipgirl View Post
    It could also be caused by the mineral level in your water or by an allergy to an ingredient in the food you are feeding.
    The mineral levels fits in with my understanding of the problem and I can see the logic of using metallic bowls- this will help to change the composition of the metals in the water.

    Unfortunately eliminating all minerals would be bad for the dog's health.

    I am in no doubt that diet change is important. That said, it is difficult to identify the problem ingredients.

    Quote Originally Posted by flipgirl View Post
    Sometimes beet pulp, found in some kibble as a filler.
    This may be an urban myth- beet pulp used in food is white in colour and not red like beetroot pulp

    Quote Originally Posted by flipgirl View Post
    antibiotics kill good bacteria too.
    Too true. Yogurt is a good way of helping to restore the flora levels in the gut

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    I clean my dogs' eyes constantly, especially Liz. Her eyes tear like mad. Seems like I'm always wiping her eyes. I can't stand it when it gets hard and gross. None of my dogs are white at the eyes, though, so it's not a huge problem for me

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Hi Briteday

    I am suprised that angels eyes didn't work for you. I can only asume that your dog needed a higher dose.

    Glad to hear that the eye drops are helping to keep the red yeast levels low. The brown staining is the red yeast. Without your intervention it would be much worse- welldone

    Are you sure that you tried Angels Delight. It hasn't been on the market that long and I don't think they actually sell it stores in the USA- I recommended to a friend in manhantan and they had to buy it from the UK.

    Here is a link for you to have a look at it

    http://www.bichonhotel.co.uk/angels_delight
    Last edited by hungover; 12-30-2008 at 06:14 PM. Reason: bad link

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Sorry about the bump but i found this...

    http://vmdiva.com/2010/01/tear-stain...meets-the-eye/

    Its a vet's (partial) response to this thread

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    My dogs always drink bottled water and adding apple cider vinegar did nothing. Eye Envy did nothing, because the eyes are constantly tearing, so it just gets the stains later. Although, Eye Envy didn't even work. The ONLY thing that worked is Angel's Eyes. And after giving it for a couple of weeks, the staining does stay gone for 6-12 months.

    Briteday- I have never heard of a case where Angel's Eyes didn't work. Did you trim off the stained hair? The new hair grows in stain free because of what Angel's Eyes does in the dog's body. But, it that doesn't do anything for the stained hair that's already there- that would be impossible. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't trim the hair.

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    My friend used to sell AE in the Uk before it was declared illegal. The vast majority of users that it didn't work for were simply using too little.

    However, there were a handfull of customers that were using higher doses that still found that it didn't work. I have no idea why...

    i have also heard that the failure rate for Angels Delight is similar, I think about less than 1%. Mind you the difference is that even if Angels Delight doesn't work you are still boosting your dog's health.

    I have no idea what the failure rate for NaturVet is.

    I have never understood why people use less than the recommended dosage, it is a waste of both money and time!

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    I've used Angle Eyes.

    I stopped using it approximately 3 weeks ago. Guess what? Tear stains again! And they're getting bad.

    I left for work one morng and came home in the afternoon, and I swear, they appeared out of nowhere!

    I'm really not interested on having my dog on Antibiotics forever. There has to be something else that can be done!

    I'm going to the vet next week anyways and I'll see what they say. And BTW, Kina was groomed last weekend, and her face has been cut extreemly short that there are not hairs that can get to her eyes. (her face looks like they gave her a poodle face, when the poodles are nicely groomed)
    Last edited by Kina_A; 04-09-2010 at 03:23 PM.

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    After trying every "folk" remedy I could find, from vinegar to antacid to distilled water, and having zero success, I used Angel Eyes and it completely did away with all staining. However, when I discontinued it, the stains came back within weeks. Angel Eyes also had the lovely side effect of giving Odo loose poop the entire time he was on it.

    So I switched to Eye Envy, and at first it seemed to be helping, but it doesn't completely remove the stains. It keeps them lighter, but they're still there and still clearly visible. I've tried tons of other anti-staining products and none of them have helped even minimally.

    Odo has to go for his one year checkup/rabies booster visit here soon, so I'll talk to the vet regarding his excessive tearing and see what he thinks. I know it's a cosmetic issue, but it's a particularly annoying one.

    I haven't tried Angel's Delight as it doesn't seem to be available in the US that I can find, and I'd hate to spend the money importing only to find it doesn't work any better than Eye Envy.

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    Senior Member briteday's Avatar
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    OK, daughter works for a vet now, asked about Tylosin. We also keep chickens and use it on rare occasions when one is terribly ill with a respiratory infection.

    The vet worked up a dose that was a bit larger than what I had been using. And to stay on tylosin for at least 4-6 weeks.

    Results...this time it worked for all of the dogs. And they have been off tylosin for over 6 months now and there is no new staining. Our vet said he would never suggest that anyone use tylosin or anything similar on a constant basis. But a burst of it every few years to reduce the staining from the bacterial by-products would probably be ok.
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Quote Originally Posted by porshiana View Post
    It is natural for dogs to produce clear tears. There are numerous reasons for them to produce excessive CLEAR tears. However, there is only one bacteria that causes red staining, ptyrosporin. Without having a Ptyrosporin infection, the tears would be completely clear. There are other infections that dogs can get in their eyes, but these produce yellow and green mucus, not red staining. Allergies minerals and such can cause her to tear a lot. They do not cause the fur to turn red, clear tears that are bacteria free do not turn the fur red. This is the waste product (feces if you will) of the ptyrosporin bacteria. If you have red staining, there is no other reason.

    Ptyrosporin is like mold. It is in the air. If you leave bread out, mold will grow on it. If your dogs fur around her eyes are constantly wet, ptyrosporin will grow in it.
    Ptyrosporin is yeast, not bacteria Quite a difference.
    Mommy to 5 adorable parrots

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Hi ! I ' m a new member ! As you can see on my avatar , 8 months old Nelly was sparkling white . She ' s now 12 months old and has heavy eye red stains , around the mouth and some on her paws as well . I recently purchased Angels Glow , but she doesn ' t like it . According to this thread , here ' s 2 solutions ;

    "so ignoring any of the pastes and wipes which seem to work for some and not others we are left with two options: kill the bacteria or oxidise the iron in the body- ie drugs or diet- both are safe and eventually one or the other will work."

    I guess i ' ll get a refund on the Angels Glow and try tylosin (tylan 40)

    Would tylosin kill the bacteria permantely or is it bound to come back to life ?

    Thanks for you feedbacks , Claude

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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Quote Originally Posted by whizzervic View Post
    Hi ! I ' m a new member ! As you can see on my avatar , 8 months old Nelly was sparkling white . She ' s now 12 months old and has heavy eye red stains , around the mouth and some on her paws as well . I recently purchased Angels Glow , but she doesn ' t like it . According to this thread , here ' s 2 solutions ;

    "so ignoring any of the pastes and wipes which seem to work for some and not others we are left with two options: kill the bacteria or oxidise the iron in the body- ie drugs or diet- both are safe and eventually one or the other will work."

    I guess i ' ll get a refund on the Angels Glow and try tylosin (tylan 40)

    Would tylosin kill the bacteria permantely or is it bound to come back to life ?

    Thanks for you feedbacks , Claude
    Erm... with egg on my face I have now have to admit that there is a third option- ie "kill" and control the bacteria using plant extracts with antibacterial qualities.

    I used to rave about Angels Delight but now I use the equally good and vastly cheaper NaturVet tear stain supplement.

    With regard to your question about using plain old Tylan. Whether you will need to use it continually or not is hard to say. Few owners are lucky enough to use one of the tylosin based products once only

    If your dog wont eat Angels Glow then you might have the same problems with the Tylan, it really is very bitter.

    My advice, if you aren't in a terrible hurry would be to use the NaturVet stuff (perhaps continually) or the more expensive Angels Eyes Natural (same ingredients but way more expensive). Unlike Angels Glow tylan- both of NV and AE natural are perfectly legal and safe for prolonged use.

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    Senior Member Abbylynn's Avatar
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    Re: Tear staining, a Real solution

    Interesting thread here. But I do it all the hard way. A good diet. I keep the hair trimmed short around the eyes. I wash their eyes off every day. It is not perfect but it is better than it used to be. I know........chemicals and antibiotics are easier. But I would rather my dogs saved the antibiotics for something they really need it for. I worry about them becoming immune to them.
    Oh well.....been washing dogs eyes for over five years now.....what's another 5-10 more! Lol!


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