Raw - Is organ meat necessary?
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Thread: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

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    Senior Member rosemaryninja's Avatar
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    Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    I never thought of feeding raw before, but it was suggested in another thread and the more I think about it, the more it seems to be a good solution. My mother doesn't have to pay much, which is her grouse, and I get my dogs off lousy kibble, which is my grouse.

    So I've been doing some research, and my question is - are is organ meat really necessary? I've seen some diets that go on 70% RMB, 30% veggies, discounting organ meat and muscle meat totally. Then I've seen some that go on RMB, organ meat and muscle meat only.

    I'm rather confused about all this!

    The reason I ask is that, well, I don't really fancy the idea of handling organs. Raw meat I can handle fine, but, er. If it really does my girls a lot of good, I'll go ahead and do it, but I've read some places that it's not necessary, and others that it's too rich and should only be fed in small amounts.

    Any ideas, or tips on a girl just venturing into raw?

    Edit:
    I'm planning 70% RMB, 20% muscle meat and 10% veggies for Spunky, and 60% RMB, 20% muscle meat and 20% veggies for Honey. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by rosemaryninja; 01-03-2008 at 02:05 AM.
    -Melissa
    Life is never dull with a Beagle

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    Senior Member britishbandit's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    I'm not too sure on the ratio aspect, but everyone I know who feeds a raw diet includes organ meat as well, and would say the organ meat is more important than the veggies.

  4. #3
    Senior Member rosemaryninja's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    Thanks. I will probably feed the organs every two weeks, or at least only after my dogs have transitioned fully. I've also been told to eliminate the veggies altogether.
    -Melissa
    Life is never dull with a Beagle

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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    Dogs dont need alot of veggies, if any, although some people might vehemently disagree. Im not a fan of raw rosemary, niether is my vet brother, but to each his own. Make sure you research both sides of the issue before you make a decision. Check out this site, it does a good job of breaking down the adverse opinion.
    http://www.secondchanceranch.com/tra...eat/index.html

    I supplement with meat and organs, but never any bones....I have great issue with bones, cooked or uncooked. My dogs are on a quality kibble and homecooked diet (organs and meat but cooked). Ive seen too many sad cases in my brothers practice caused by torn intestines because of bones and horrible bacteria due to raw meats. Not too mention phosphurus levels and calcium all out of whack causing problems.....among other things. Its all what works for you dog. A lot of people have great success with raw. But be careful, do your research because it is an art and if done must be done properly.
    Last edited by Pawper; 01-03-2008 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  6. #5
    Senior Member briteday's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    Organs are necessary for vitamin requirements. However, if you really have an adverse feeling about it you can supplement with vitamins A and D. Most dogs will have "cannon btt" if you try to feed them a whole meal of organs. So I take some frozen liver and frozen kidney (from the grocery or butcher) and cut it up into portions equal to one meal. Then I take that portion and cut it up into smaller chunks to feed with the morning meal over the week. I keep everything in a plastic shoebox in the fridge (no mistaking dog food for human food that way).

    So a weekly plan at my house looks like this:

    Every AM meal is small chunks of organ meat with poultry RMB
    **1x/week I add a whole raw egg (I have small dogs so I put an egg in the blender and divide among all three dogs)
    **2x/week I add a small bit of grizzly salmon oil (start slow, can cause runny stools)

    PM meals:
    1 fish meal
    1 heart meal (excellent source of taurine, an amino acid)
    5 muscle meat meals

    If it happens to be hanging around in the fridge and soon to expire I might throw in some plain, non-fat organic yogurt, cottage cheese, leftover veggies, leftover fruit, ...whatever would otherwise hit the trash in the next few days. And add-ins never add up to more than a tablespoon in a meal for my 10 pound dogs as they can put on weight very quickly.

    As far as veggies, I don't normally serve them unless it means they will be wasted otherwise. My dogs have done fine without them on a regular basis.
    Being smart is learning from your own mistakes. Being wise is learning from others' mistakes.
    Cally- 14 yo papillon, Moose the puppy, McKenna 8 yo pomeranian grand-dog, and chickens

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    Senior Member rosemaryninja's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    Thanks Pawper and briteday. I've since eliminated all veggies from the planned diet altogether.

    I'm so confused now. On the one hand it seems like feeding raw could be really good for Spunky and clear up her skin problems. On the other I don't want my darling to end up in the hospital from a torn intestine or salmonella.
    -Melissa
    Life is never dull with a Beagle

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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    WIlbur recommended lobster, brandy and cigars

  9. #8
    Senior Member briteday's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    If it makes you uncomfortable you can have a butcher grind your whole chickens to start with, and then just give them some chicken wings or thighs to get them chewing things down. I think you will be amzed at the termite behavior that comes out in dogs ehn given a raw piece of meat and bone. If there is a bone that they seem to play with more after geting the meat off then I would take that away until they learn to crunch it up. But if you start with easy pieces nature generally takes over.

    Honestly though, in the beginning when my dogs weren't chewing things quite thoroughly, a few times each week they would chuck up a spoonful of undigested bone parts. So whatever they don't chew down small enough for the gut to digest comes back up.

    There is always a risk of perforation. However, even dogs that are not fed raw can get perforations or abcesses from other things they swallow.
    Being smart is learning from your own mistakes. Being wise is learning from others' mistakes.
    Cally- 14 yo papillon, Moose the puppy, McKenna 8 yo pomeranian grand-dog, and chickens

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    Senior Member Annamarie's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    I wouldn't eliminate veggies from the diet. meat doesn't contain all the vitamins and nutrients dogs require for a balanced diet. if you're eliminating veggies I hope you're at least giving your dog a multivitamin supplement.

    organ meats are good in moderation for dogs. remember that organs like kidney and liver are the body's filters, so all the toxins are stored there. while they do have some benefits, I would stick to organs like hearts.

  11. #10
    Senior Member briteday's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    I buy all of my organ meats at a butcher sho saves them from organic ranchers that raise meat for their own consumption.

    Kidneys are not such a big deal since it is the fluid that passes through them that is flushing the toxins. However, I feel very strongly about organic liver since the liver metabolizes a lot of the chemicals put into the animal. And residue can be found in the liver tissue. So try for organic liver whenever possible. I can go either way on spleens. But since the butcher who slaughters for the organic rancher saves those for me too...

    I think you just need to know where the meat is coming from.
    Being smart is learning from your own mistakes. Being wise is learning from others' mistakes.
    Cally- 14 yo papillon, Moose the puppy, McKenna 8 yo pomeranian grand-dog, and chickens

  12. #11
    Senior Member GreatDaneMom's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    ok, im going to say this. i think the problem most people have when switching to raw is the question of feeding vegies and fruits to a dog. well people always think of dogs in the wild killing and eating an animal. ok, fine. so they are carnivores.... not really. theyre actually more omnivore. think about this... when they kill something, they consume everything, bones, meat, intestinal tract... oh wait, this includes the stomach. and whats in the stomach? partially digested food including vegetable matter, plants, berries, etc. so obviously this IS a needed part of the diet. if youre not going to atleast include them (UNCOOKED) you should use a multivitamin supplement. and then we have fruits. fruits contain potassium (especially banannas) which can be in very short supply in a regular raw diet without fruits. also dates are high in folic acid which is important. My dogs are not fed raw quite yet because im still deciding some little things here and there.... anyway. I have found they obsess over carrots, and banannas, and other fruits and vegies. they get them as treats right now, and they love them. i wouldnt dream of not uncluding them in their diets. especially raw whole carrots, not only do they love them and it gives me a short break while they gnaw on them, but it cleans their teeth!
    The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven, not man's. ~Mark Twain

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    Senior Member Wimble Woof's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    The whole fruit and veggie feeding option really depends on what model you plan to feed, now my dogs dont get any fruits and veggies (other than tripe which has partially digested grass in it so..) they're doing just fine.

    The key phrase IMO is this
    when they kill something, they consume everything, bones, meat, intestinal tract... oh wait, this includes the stomach. and whats in the stomach? partially digested food including vegetable matter, plants, berries, etc.
    Where I see a loop hole with this statement is here, "partially digested" perhaps by eating the veggies that another animal has started to digest facilitates the proper absorption and digestion for your dog.
    Clearly dogs can survive with out any added veggies in their diet and clearly they can survive with added veggies.
    Honestly I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here... I personally havent fed any, but am thinking of starting, cheaper a bit, and not going to harm them.


    "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes."
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    Senior Member Annamarie's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    I've always read to feed dogs vegetables cooked, as they don't have the enzymes to digest them otherwise. For sure you always want to feed potatoes cooked because raw they can be poisonous.

    also when comparing a dog's diet to a wild animal's diet, there really is no comparison. dogs have been bred to be companion animals for centuries and have survived on table scraps from humans, basically eating a little of everything we eat. the life span of a wild wolf or dog is also significantly shorter than the life span of a domestic dog as well, so you can't really say their diet is healthier.

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    Senior Member GreatDaneMom's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    how are they poisinous when raw, but not cooked. that makes no sense to me. the parts of the potato that arent good for the dog are the budding parts, and green parts.
    The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven, not man's. ~Mark Twain

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    Senior Member Annamarie's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    i'm not sure why (with the potatoes), but this is what i read:
    Tomatoes and raw potatoes contain the glycoalkaloid Solanine, a poisonous compound which can cause digestive ailments in animals.

  17. #16
    Senior Member rosemaryninja's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    It's not poisonous to give your dog uncooked vegetables, but it's not at all beneficial. From what I've read, if you want to feed veggies, feed only a "mush" of uncooked vegetables.

    Dogs can't digest cellulose, which is what constitutes the cell walls of plants. In order for dogs to get nutrients out of them, you need to mush up the veggies to crush the cell walls. Cooking them will also destroy the cell walls, but also destroys a lot of the nutrients and enzymes in the vegetables.

    However, after some reading up I don't think veggies are required in a dog's diet... For one thing, the stuff in the "prey's" stomach is mostly grass and herbs, which is nothing like the cucumbers or green beans that we would be feeding them. Secondly, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that when dogs hunt down prey, the stomach contents are largely left untouched.

    Besides, if they really needed vegetables in their diet, would they not have evolved to be able to digest them without our help?
    -Melissa
    Life is never dull with a Beagle

  18. #17
    Senior Member Annamarie's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    feeding veggies raw isn't poisonous no, except maybe pototoes, which is what i was talking about in my post. i was always told to feed cooked though because they're more easily digested.

    i think veggies do have a lot of beneficial nutrients, like fiber, beta carotene, multiple vitamins, etc. everything that a dog needs for whole nutrition cannot be found in just meat. i also give vitamins but i do mix some veggies in with my dog's meals, and he gladly eats them.

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    Senior Member Abbysdad's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    What books or webites are a good to start with learning more about this typeo of feeding?

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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    Why do people think that dogs cant digest veggies? They sure can! Every time I stayed on my grandparents farm for the summer- dogs would go and eat whatever crop my grandfather was growing. Once, my grandma made a SALAD and set it on the porch because she forgot something for it- came back out and the dog ate it.

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    Senior Member MagicToller's Avatar
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    Re: Raw - Is organ meat necessary?

    Where I see a loop hole with this statement is here, "partially digested" perhaps by eating the veggies that another animal has started to digest facilitates the proper absorption and digestion for your dog.
    Clearly dogs can survive with out any added veggies in their diet and clearly they can survive with added veggies.
    Honestly I dont think there is a right or wrong answer here... I personally havent fed any, but am thinking of starting, cheaper a bit, and not going to harm them.
    Well said :]

    What books or webites are a good to start with learning more about this typeo of feeding?
    Raw FAQ
    Dog Wise - Just search "Raw"
    Got Toller?


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