[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by Spicy1_VV

That is not true. Spreading misconception or making them all out to be friendly dogs except if "taught to be mean" is no better then the "pit haters" as some people call them.

First dogs are "mean" or show aggresive tendencies, traits and reactions for a number of reason. So before you make such statements I suggest you study more on animal behavior, talk to some trainers and behaviorist and even people on this forum who have had to deal with their dogs being aggressive whom I doubt ever trained them to be that way (since they were trying to change the behavior). Many dogs become aggressive, whether that be towards people are animals, without their owner training them to be that way. I can assure you that the man aggressive Pit Bull I had was never trained or made to be aggressive. I do not like HA Pit Bulls therefore would not be idiot enough to train the dog to bark/growl at my own family. I did not train my other dog (not a Pit) to be HA to strangers either, she was fear aggressive because she was naturally shy and very nervous. Some dogs are predisposed to be aggressive through genetics (like mine) whether it be selecting for dogs who have defense drive, poor breeding practices or health problem.

The reason to breed high defense drive is so they will be naturally "guardy". If LGDs don't naturally have this trait in them to fight and/or kill it is considered unfit for work and breeding. Pit Bulls by nature can have a high prey drive which might lead them to kill small animals or react with "aggression" as some people call it. They are not trained to do this no more then a Patterdale is trained to dig up its game and kill it.

Pit Bulls by nature can also be dog aggressive, some having a higher fight drive then others. Which leads them to want to fight other dogs when they see them, without training them to behave aggressively, this is why some litters must be separated at 8 weeks old. It is written in the breed standard, most APBT books, stressed by rescue people/breeders/owners that they might turn out to want to fight other dogs. This is why someone can have a Pit Bull since puppyhood that they socialize with other dogs and behaves dog social almost sudden not like dogs any more. Pit Bulls having to be trained to fight is just another misconception about them. If they had to be trained to fight there would be no point in it. A pit bull that has to be trained to fight wouldn't be considered pit worthy. It would also not explain why cold dogs/late starters were simply not trained to fight if that is all the owner had to do. As with any breed bred for a task the dog must have the natural instincts to do the job. Some jobs require more training then others. Man has selectively bred dogs to do what they do that is why we have purebred dogs. If we could train any dog to do any job/task/ect with exceptional ability people would not worry so much about breeding.

Pit Bulls are not the only breed to be called naturally dog aggressive or be dog dominant. Responsible breeders/owners of those other breeds as well stress this. (it is written in their breed descriptions too) The only difference with Pit Bulls is that once they get into a fight they might not be inclined to stop without intervention until one or the other is very injured or dead.

Just as dogs can be naturally aggressive they can be naturally friendly and very social. You do not(should not) have to train a Pit Bull to be friendly, if so there is a problem. Because of their breeding they should be more then willing to make friends with people. I think the main question would be if a dog isn't being aggressive by nature why would you have to teach him/her not to be aggressive.

And no if a dog is a fighting dog that is not all it will do. It depends on the individual dogs. We also can't say that it is "all it knows" because again it depends on the dog and its owner. That is a broad statement to make.

Yes they do what they know, which includes what their instincts tell them. They are living creatures that have a mind of their own with more then what they are taught. They can chose to eat your siding, jump out of the fence, dig up a dead animal, roll themselve up in a blanket or attack a person/dog without ever being taught to do it.

Some look sad, some look relatively happy. Some are covered in scares some are not. Some dogs have a "sad look" in general because of their face and doesn't reflect if they are/are not happy. This is not an endorsement for fighting but IMO I don't think these dogs look too terribly sad. Ok I just don't like blanket statements.









*As well dogs can have scars because they chose to fight not because the owner wanted them to, while scars are not exactly pretty it doesn't mean the dog is a fighting dog and a dog with scares doesn't have to look sad even if it doesn't look pretty. Hunting dogs can also get plenty of scares over time.

Excellent Post Spicy. Mucho Bueno.

Spicy is right. My dog Bolo is dog aggressive. It is not something she has control over. Even When I have her under my complete control in the presence of other dogs she whines...as if in pain because she is trying desperatly to obey me and combating her powerful instinct to do battle. Pits tend to require a strong firm and fair owner who is patient and studious. Not all will be like that. My other Pit girl is submissive and submissive and oh yeah..submissive...But others will. And to be a responsible owner is to recognize that fact and be prepared for it.

here's another site for you to flip through. And Spicy and I can help you. Spicy breeds outstanding APBT specimens and I have been doing pit bull rescue and intensely studying the Pit Bull for quite awhile now. You have a beautiful girl. Give her the best you can because I guarantee if she has the heart of a pit like im sure she does she would die for you. Please don't think we are trying to patronize you. We really sincerely care about Sadie and truly want to help.


http://www.understand-a-bull.com/

[pugmom]

I like things nice and simple...IMO

Dog fighting = Bad

I'm sure there are dogs out there that do like to fight and are very happy when they do fight...but that doesn't mean its right or that they should do it.

Those dogs might not be sad but I am sad for them...

To me its like drug addicts....They are happy when they shoot poison into their veins..they would happily do it over and over again....but to me its wrong.

I know that the dogs I love would not be here today if not for the dogmen and their dogs....they are a part of our pups history and I can appreciate it as that HISTORY.......

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by pugmom

I like things nice and simple...IMO

Dog fighting = Bad

I'm sure there are dogs out there that do like to fight and are very happy when they do fight...but that doesn't mean its right or that they should do it.

Those dogs might not be sad but I am sad for them...

To me its like drug addicts....They are happy when they shoot poison into their veins..they would happily do it over and over again....but to me its wrong.

I know that the dogs I love would not be here today if not for the dogmen and their dogs....they are a part of our pups history and I can appreciate it as that HISTORY.......

But that history plays a part in the present...for the moment...

Dog aggression is real and it can happen. What you choose to do about it is up to you. It is not the end of the world. I live with one DA dog and one not DA dog. It requires a commitment to manage but it is very possible and plausible for a DA dog to be around other dogs. DA does in no way mean a dog is HA or human aggressive.

Not knockin you Pugmom By any stretch or MeganFex. I do feel the info should be available for consideration and open to discussion.

[Spicy1_VV]

Zim outstanding huh? That is a nice compliment to my dogs.

Pugmom don't know if your post is to do with mine or if you are just saying in general. Let me say though that yes it is self destructive and as Zim says they can't help it. They didn't chose to be like that, man bred them like that, whether the like it or not, happy or not of course it doesn't change a thing. I understand being sad for them. My point is simply when I see someone say such things they as the poster I quoted they usually don't have much experience with the APBT, haven't studied too much on the breed, haven't been around too many if any DA dogs, haven't seen too many fighting dogs, haven't research the breeds history, development, ect. Because if they had done those things they wouldn't say what they said. Another point is basically while dog fighting = bad it doesn't mean fighting dogs = sad/sad looking. That doesn't mean its ok, good, ect (like I said not an endorsement)

[pugmom]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

But that history plays a part in the present...for the moment...

Dog aggression is real and it can happen. What you choose to do about it is up to you. It is not the end of the world. I live with one DA dog and one not DA dog. It requires a commitment to manage but it is very possible and plausible for a DA dog to be around other dogs. DA does in no way mean a dog is HA or human aggressive.

Not knockin you Pugmom By any stretch or MeganFex. I do feel the info should be available for consideration and open to discussion.

I too believe that the info/history should be available to learn from and to discuss...I don't condone hiding their fighting history or pretending that its not where our dogs came from ...every bully owner should be aware of there breeds past and how it relates to the present

...but there is also a danger is "fluffing" the past....(not saying this is what spicy was doing)..when we put up old pictures of happy fighting dogs we put out the image that this is how every dog/owner was ...which unfortunately was not always the case...for every one picture of a "happy" fighting dog...I'm quite sure there are plenty of not so nice ones....dogs w/their faces ripped open...or the one who didn't get to go home after .. the dead one

History is a tight rope act...we need to educate people about it ..without promoting it....

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

cool..we all are pretty much agreed...

and yes spicy...outstanding..there are very few kennels I have looked at that have really good dogs that conform to standard. Each is a different interpretation of the standard to be sure...but the overall from what I can see is very good...

[MeganFex]

Spicy_1 I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to get across is that pits have a bad rep and they shouldn't since all dogs have the ability to be just as mean as pit bulls. So why don't all dogs have this bad rep? It's because, yes pit bulls have aggressive tendencies because of the type of dog they are, but all dogs can kill little dogs or people. Yes, I do agree that even if you train a dog to be friendly, they can be mean. I was only trying to say that it's ALL dogs that can be mean, not just pit bulls and they shouldn't have such a bad reputation as these horrible monsters. They, as any dog, can be very loyal, and very sweet. Just because they are pitbulls and are meant for fighting or whatever, doesn't mean that they will be that way and attack someone or anyone. I know people with pitbulls who have never bit anyone, and people with little weiner dogs that are more aggressive than the pit bulls. All dogs can be aggressive, and all I am trying to get across is that pit bulls are not monsters and they shouldn't be made out to be. Many are mistreated because of this stereotype, and it's not right. Every dog deserves to have a good life and not be mistreated because they are "supposed" to be fighters.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by MeganFex

Pits have a bad rep and it's so sad. The only reason that they, or any breed of dog for that matter, are ever mean or aggressive is because of the way they are trained. If you train a dog to fight, that's what it will do because it is all it knows. It's just the same as if you teach a dog not to be aggressive, but to be friendly. They only do what they know and what they are taught. Pit bulls are loyal and smart, I don't care what anyone says. I'm with all you pit bull lovers. They are beautiful dogs, so smart and sooo loving! How could anyone make their dog into a fighter. Pit bull brought up to fight look so sad, with their scars from fighting. It makes me sick to my stomach just at the thought of anyone wanting to put there dog through that. I just can't beleive it. Dogs are supposed to be mans best friend, not mans fighting machines brought up for mans own sick pleasure!!

The Bolded part is you problem statement. Dog aggression is GENETIC. they cannot control it. There are Pits out the who DON'T have to be trained to fight and CAN'T have the tendancy trained away...only controlled. My pit Bolo is one of them. People have been breeding fighting DRIVE into pits for over a hundred years. How many dog generations do you think that is?

[Spicy1_VV]

pugmom Yes there are pics with their faces ripped open, nose ripped off, ect and there are many more dogs who looked horrible or were cruelly killed when they lost that we'll never even know about. Showing the other pics doesn't put out an imagine that all pit dogs were happy, it just shows that not all pit dogs look sad either. That was the point and intention. I actually typed something along those lines. I think we agree more then disagree.

MeganFex ok I understand what you are saying. I think if it had been written differently I would have better understood it. As you said before the only reason they (or others) are mean is because of how they are trained. So that is the part I disagreed with mainly. I understand and fully agree that any dog can be dangerous or aggressive no matter its breed. It is unfair that Pit Bulls have a bad rep, especially when they should have such a good disposition. It is due to so many irresponsible owners, myths and the media. Also a lot of dogs that bite are mislabeled as pits or pit mixes are call Pits so the Pit Bull gets the blame. I get what you are saying about any dog possible harming or killing others.

[dogwoman]

Wish I could send a pic but I can't seem to get on on here. I am not a computer geek but not completely stupid either. Anyway I have a black & white( mostly black ) pit named Ranger who is a yr old and as I am an obedience instructor am currently training, training , training....him!!! lol
Alphas pics with her red nose in the focus are awesome and I am working on that with Ranger!!!!
It is absolutely awesome to see people who are training there pits whenever I see one I make sure and try to get them into a class. These dgs are so eager to work & LOVE to learn...Ranger would rather train then do just about anything except at the moment he is snoring on my leg!!! Ha Ha.
Any tips on the pic thing?

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by dogwoman

Wish I could send a pic but I can't seem to get on on here. I am not a computer geek but not completely stupid either. Anyway I have a black & white( mostly black ) pit named Ranger who is a yr old and as I am an obedience instructor am currently training, training , training....him!!! lol
Alphas pics with her red nose in the focus are awesome and I am working on that with Ranger!!!!
It is absolutely awesome to see people who are training there pits whenever I see one I make sure and try to get them into a class. These dgs are so eager to work & LOVE to learn...Ranger would rather train then do just about anything except at the moment he is snoring on my leg!!! Ha Ha.
Any tips on the pic thing?

go to www.photobucket.com and get an account. its free. then you upload your photos and cut and paste the img code into the reply box...

method two is

there is a button under more options when you reply that says manage attachments. click that and then click browse


Alpha unfortunately I haven't seen in a while..which sucks because Hades was lovely.

[Nadine2305]

I love the pits!!! I grew up with them for 30 years..My dad is a big pit fan and they are the only breed he has ever had! About a year ago he had to put his dear missy to sleep after 12 years due to a brain tumor. He did not waste anytime getting another one. He contacted hot water rescue league in new haven CT. and he found is sweet little angle who was due to be put down the next day. She was used as a bait dog in dog fighting. Both her front legs were broke and never treated,she is missing a rib and she is scard from head to toe. She is the best dog considering what she went through. After he got her he found another one who was being fostered and he also adopted him and his name is scrappy. He was also abused and very neglected. If i knew how to post poctures on here i would show you but I havent figured that out yet