[Durbkat]

Hey everyone! Well in about 3 weeks I'll be getting my first puppy! Its going to be a shih tzu. I'm not sure what color I'll be getting yet as she has about 3 different colors to choose from. Here is the two pics she sent me,



Tell me what you think of them, I think they are really cute!

[Jaylie]

HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO THIS BREEDER?? From what I'm seeing it's a puppy mill! Unless the breeder is only putting them in that tiny cage for pictures (Which it doesn't look like it, because it doesn't even make for a nice picture) then this is a puppy mill or else someone who just has NO idea what they're doing. True puppies like to cuddle, but they also need to be able to go off by themselves. Also, where's the mother? These puppies are what, five weeks old?

Have you gone to visit the house? Did you meet the parents? What are they like? Do the puppies look healthy? Does the breeder have a health guarentee?? What're the temperments like?

ACK! I just looked closer at that picture...In the background you can see that there is another cage with more ShihTzu puppies, but these ones are younger.

[Durbkat]

Originally Posted by Jaylie

HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO THIS BREEDER?? From what I'm seeing it's a puppy mill! Unless the breeder is only putting them in that tiny cage for pictures (Which it doesn't look like it, because it doesn't even make for a nice picture) then this is a puppy mill or else someone who just has NO idea what they're doing. True puppies like to cuddle, but they also need to be able to go off by themselves. Also, where's the mother? These puppies are what, five weeks old?

No I haven't really looked into the breeder because I just responded to her classified ad in the local newspaper. Judging by the first picture if looks like the puppies can come and go as they please as it looks like the front is wide open. She never sent me pics of the parents, whats the big deal? She says that she breeds dogs alot so I assumed she knew what she was doing. From her ad she says they are 5 to 6 weeks old and have had their first shots and have been dewormed.

Have you gone to visit the house? Did you meet the parents? What are they like? Do the puppies look healthy? Does the breeder have a health guarentee?? What're the temperments like?

I haven't visited the house, She lives almost two hours away. I haven't met the parents but plan to before making my decision whether or not to buy a puppy from her. The puppies look healthy to me from the pictures. She didn't mention anything about a health guarantee. Don't know about temperaments since I haven't met the pups.

ACK! I just looked closer at that picture...In the background you can see that there is another cage with more ShihTzu puppies, but these ones are younger.

yea, she says she breeds regularly.

[Jaylie]

I advise you NOT to buy from this breeder. Because of the fact that she breeds regularly, that gives me the feeling that she's INexperienced, but definately not experienced. If she doesn't have a health guarentee, that's a HUGE reason not to buy. Do NOT buy from this breeder. I advise you to either look for a responsible breeder, or rescue from a shelter.

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-d...d-breeder.html

[blackrose]

Durbkat, I'm going to be completely honest...the breeder sounds like a backyard breeder. I'm not going to nit-pic at you, just the breeder. Here are the things that send up red flags:

No I haven't really looked into the breeder because I just responded to her classified ad in the local newspaper. Judging by the first picture if looks like the puppies can come and go as they please as it looks like the front is wide open. She never sent me pics of the parents, whats the big deal? She says that she breeds dogs alot so I assumed she knew what she was doing. From her ad she says they are 5 to 6 weeks old and have had their first shots and have been dewormed.

Red Flag #1 - she advertises in a newspaper. Responsible breeders almost need to do no advertising at all, and if they do advertise, it is through a breed club/shows/etc.

R.F. #2 - she said that she breeds dogs alot. This can be good and bad. Does she have years of experience, or does she breed ten litters a year? A responsible breeder only breeds around 1-3 times a year, and normally only when their line needs to be added to.

R.F. #3 - She didn't send you pics of the parents. Seeing the parents is important, as that is what your puppy will probably end up like. If the parents look badly bred or they have temperment issues, then the puppies will be badly bred and most likely have temperment issues. Seeing the grandparents is also very nice, but not neccessary. A responsible breeder is proud to show you what lines their puppies come from.

R.F. #4 - While having their first shots and being wormed is nice, this says nothing about health. I would ask her if the parents have been health screened (have their hips, elbows, and eyes been checked by OFA and CERF and does she have any problems with other health issues (allergies, etc.) in her lines?) If she says she has never had any problems and she has been breeding for a while...she is most likely lying. And something that isn't as important, but most reputable breeders won't let their small breed pups go to a new home till 10-12wks...but 8-9wks is fine.

I haven't visited the house, She lives almost two hours away. I haven't met the parents but plan to before making my decision whether or not to buy a puppy from her. The puppies look healthy to me from the pictures. She didn't mention anything about a health guarantee. Don't know about temperaments since I haven't met the pups.

R.F. #5 - While the puppies may look healthy, that has nothing to do with their genetic health. A puppy may look healthy but then suffer from elbow problems later in life, or develop allergies. The puppies from my local petstore look "healthy" but what you don't see is after they get home the owner is rushing them to the vet where I work at because they'ved developed parvo, or they have to put the dog down because it is suffering from the worst hip dyspliasia you can get. If she doesn't offer a health guarantee, RUN away. If she doesn't provide proof that the parents have been health tested (not just a look over by a vet that says, "Yep, they're healthy!" RUN away.

yea, she says she breeds regularly.

R.F. #6 - as said earlier, breeding regularly isn't a good thing. A bitch shouldn't have to be reproducing constantly, and so if she balances that out by having more bitches...how many dogs does she have? How does she find time to take care of and compete with all of her dogs, as well as socialize and train the puppies, as well as still work? How can she afford the health testing done on all of her breeding stock, and the fees that got with showing if she doesn't work to devote time to the animals because she has so many? It just doesn't work out. If she breeds constantly and still has time and money to work and take care of the dogs, she is cutting corners somewhere and the end result could be the health and temperment of your new puppy.

I would seriously reconsider buying from this breeder. It all could work out fine, but then again, it might end up in disaster for you and your pup. Either way you will be supporting a bad breeder. If you need help finding a reputable Shih Tzu breeder, I'm sure everyone on this forum will be more than willing to help you out.

The puppies are very cute though (especially one with the liver colored nose ), but cute puppies don't make healthy puppies, and just bringing home a pup from a breeder because it was cute and lead to lots of heartache.

P.S. Durbkat, you stole by avatar! ROFLMHO! Great minds think alike I guess.

[BoxMeIn21]

Please please, listen to the above advice - take the time and find a breeder who is doing things the responsible way.
Health guarantees are nothing without doing the proper genetic health testing on the parents (this does not mean Vet Checked). Don't get suckered in because they are cute and they are available now - a healthy pup is so worth the wait.

[Durbkat]

Well I'll be willing to test this breeder out so I can tell if she is inexperienced and just breeds them for money. So give me a list of questions to ask her and I'll ask her. I already know to ask about if I can see pics of the parents but what else?

I'd hate if she was just a bad breeder because she is selling them at a price I can afford. She is selling the males for $250 and females for $300 and I'd hate to have to go to another breeder that charges anything from $300 to $450

[tirluc]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

Well I'll be willing to test this breeder out so I can tell if she is inexperienced and just breeds them for money. So give me a list of questions to ask her and I'll ask her. I already know to ask about if I can see pics of the parents but what else?

I'd hate if she was just a bad breeder because she is selling them at a price I can afford. She is selling the males for $250 and females for $300 and I'd hate to have to go to another breeder that charges anything from $300 to $450

just remember, you get what you pay for.....

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

I'd hate if she was just a bad breeder because she is selling them at a price I can afford. She is selling the males for $250 and females for $300 and I'd hate to have to go to another breeder that charges anything from $300 to $450

Okay, let's look at it this way - you can afford 250 for a backyard bred pup from un-tested parents, what if at one years old your pup is diagnosed with a congenital heart problem (or drops dead from a heart attack), this pup's medicine and treatments will cost you about $1000 plus for the first year, probably about $500 the next plus another $500 for vet expenses - was that pup worth you saving 100 bucks?

If you can't afford a well bred puppy, please don't line the pockets of this backyard breeder who doesn't have the best interests of the breed in mind. Adopt one from a shelter, they are well within your price range.

[Durbkat]

They aren't back yard puppies, she has them in her house. Plus you all need to give me a list of questions to ask so I can test her and if she fails then I know to look at the $300 puppies. I can afford the $300 puppies that are also listed in the paper but that would mean that the puppy would have to wait a week before I could get it lots of toys. I may only be able to get 1 or 2 toys after getting the crate, food, collar and leash, and food and water dish. Because when I get the pups I would have $377 which would mean I'd only have $42 after getting the $35 crate that I saw at the pet store. But I imagine I'd have enough left to get the dish's and food and some toys.

The breeder also said she had the pups vet checked and they were fine.

[BoxMeIn21]

Vet checked means NOTHING, there is no way that a vet can check a pup for genetic diseases right now. You need to ask about the parents - have they been screened for genetic defects and you want to see copies...
Backyard Breeder is a term for breeders who turn their house pets into baby machines to turn a buck. They do not have to live in the backyard to be a backyard bred pup.
Here is something you need to think about - You say you will have to wait a week to get toys for a $300 pup, but what about the vet visits you have to make at least 2-3 days after picking up the pup? My first vet visit cost me $165 bucks and then a month later another $100 - in the first 6 months, I spent almost $1500 on vaccinations, 2 emergency trips to the vet, neutering, micro-chipping, flea and heartworm prevention, toys, bedding, collars, leashes, etc... Puppies are not cheap, what if you have an emergency? What if your puppy accidentally ingests something and it causes a blockage? Emergency surgery for Rowdy cost me $900 bucks to retrieve a sock. Will the pup have to wait a week for you to provide care? I am not trying to be mean, you just need to be aware that $300 bucks is nothing compared to what you are going to spend that first 6 months of the pups life even without emergencies - but you need to be prepared for those too.

Here is the link to the American Shih Tzu Club:
http://64.37.122.206/index2.asp
Here are the questions you should be asking your breeder...
http://64.37.122.206/Info/questionst....asp?menu=Info

Here is an excerpt from this page in regards to health issues within the breed:

The breeder should be knowledgeable about and working to control and/or eradicate conditions, including those that are particular to the breed, such as renal dysplasia, portal systemic shunt, hip and eye problems, allergies, Von Willebrands disease, thyroid disorders, and inguinal hernias. ASTC pamphlets can tell you more about breeding healthy dogs and renal dysplasia.

You want to see all of these test results on the parents...

[Durbkat]

No it wouldn't have to wait a week for health care. I get paid every week about $100 (I'm only 16) After I get that $300 dog I should have enough for the crate, the food, and some toys from our local grocery store which is the same toys at the pet store but alot cheaper as will be the food and water dish. Then by next weeks check I was going to take the pup to this clinic that works with low income familys and it will only cost $84 to get the dog neutered, rabie shots, DHPP shots, Bordatella shots, and to get it microchipped. Then with the week after thats check I was going to go get it checked out by the vet. Or if it needs to be done earlier I'm sure my mom will pay for the bill then I would pay her back.

Well I just sent her an email with those question and I will let you know her response.

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

No it wouldn't have to wait a week for health care. I get paid every week about $100 (I'm only 16) After I get that $300 dog I should have enough for the crate, the food, and some toys from our local grocery store which is the same toys at the pet store but alot cheaper as will be the food and water dish. Then by next weeks check I was going to take the pup to this clinic that works with low income familys and it will only cost $84 to get the dog neutered, rabie shots, DHPP shots, Bordatella shots, and to get it microchipped. Then with the week after thats check I was going to go get it checked out by the vet. Or if it needs to be done earlier I'm sure my mom will pay for the bill then I would pay her back.

Well I just sent her an email with those question and I will let you know her response.

Good it sounds like you have a plan in place - and at 16, that's very mature.
Please let us know what she says. I would hate for you to make a mistake by purchasing a dog that could potentially cause you much heartache down the road because the breeder wasn't responsible enough to screen for genetic disorders. Paying a little more up front is so worth having a healthy dog. Keep us posted.

[Durbkat]

Alright, but what kind of general genetic problems do shih tzu's normally have, or is it a dog by dog basis?

[BoxMeIn21]

Umm...did you read those questions I sent you, before you sent them to the breeder?
All breeds have inheritable conditions that are specific to each breed. In my breed, the boxer, there is Cardiomyopathy, SAS, Thyriod and Hip Dysplasia.

Here is what I posted earlier:

Here is the link to the American Shih Tzu Club:
http://64.37.122.206/index2.asp

Here are the questions you should be asking your breeder...
http://64.37.122.206/Info/questionst....asp?menu=Info

Here is an excerpt from this page in regards to health issues within the breed:

Quote:
The breeder should be knowledgeable about and working to control and/or eradicate conditions, including those that are particular to the breed, such as renal dysplasia, portal systemic shunt, hip and eye problems, allergies, Von Willebrands disease, thyroid disorders, and inguinal hernias. ASTC pamphlets can tell you more about breeding healthy dogs and renal dysplasia.

[Durbkat]

OMG! Stupid me! I'm sorry, I forgot about that.

[BoxMeIn21]

No worries.

[Durbkat]

So I'm assuming that these conditions only happen rarley in shih tzu's but I guess that are expensive to treat if they do occur? So if this breeder turns out to just be a novice breeder what do I ask other people? As most other people in the newspaper just list phone numbers and I would think that they'd think I was crazy asking all those questions. If a news paper isn't the best place to get a shih tzu, where is? Because I would think people who list in the news paper may only be like a family that there dogs happened to breed or something.

[blackrose]

First, let me say that I'm happy that you are willing to check out the breeder and if she turns out to be a "dud", to go to a responsible one. Not many people are willing to do this, especially when they are faced with cute pictures of puppies. Thus one of the reasons petstores work so well.

Now to answer you questions.
"So I'm assuming that these conditions only happen rarley in shih tzu's but I guess that are expensive to treat if they do occur?"
They would occur rarely in properly bred Shih Tzus, but poorly bred ones almost always have something along these lines. Quoting from the book "Your Pure Bred Puppy: A Buyer's Guide (2nd addition)" by Michele Welton:
"Both parents should have OFA certificates (hips), yearly CERF (eyes), and a urine screening for renal dysplasia. Also ask about luxating patella, bladder stones, vWD, low thyroid, allergies and skin conditions, portal systemic shunt, and autoimmune hemolytic anemia in the lines."

"So if this breeder turns out to just be a novice breeder what do I ask other people? As most other people in the newspaper just list phone numbers and I would think that they'd think I was crazy asking all those questions."
If you wouldn't mind spending $20 on a book, I highly suggest buying the book quoted earlier. It has a section on where to buy your puppy, what to look for in a breeder, what to avoid in a breeder, what answers from a breeder are crap, what questions to ask, how to pick your puppy, etc.
*Ask about the health certificates first. Ask what health test have been done on the sire and dam and what the ratings were for the tests. Make sure you will be able to see the proof that these test have been done.
*You can ask about the age and gender of the puppies availible.
*Ask if the puppies are pet quality or show quality. If they are pet quality, ask why they are considered a pet quality puppy. (As long as the breeder doesn't answer that she only breeds pet quality puppies and doesn't show, any answer is ok.)
*Ask about each puppies individual temperment. If the breeder says they all act the same or doesn't really know, she hasn't spent enough time with the puppies. When I was six and a stray we had had a litter of puppies, even I could tell you the individual temperments of the puppies.
*Ask if the breeder does tempermant testing. This is just an added bonus and lets you know that they have assesed the puppies temperment.
*Ask were the puppies were raised and what kind of socialization they have been getting.
*Ask what the breeding on the puppies is and what their lines are. If the breeder doesn't even understand what that question means, then don't buy from them. This question is asking about the sire, dam, grand parents, titles on the ancestors, etc.
*Ask if you can meet the parents. It is common for the sire to not be on site as he may have been a stud dog, but if you can't meet him in person, pictures and videos are great. If you can't see the parents because they don't like strangers or something like that, run away.
*Ask about the sire and dams temperment. Your puppy will most likely act like them, so pick a sire and a dam that you like.
*Ask about how big the puppies will be when full grown. If the breeder mentions "teacup" "tiny toy" or "imperial" RUN.
*Ask why the breeder chose to breed the sire and dam together. You don't want to be told, "Well, they are just such sweet dogs and we were told they'd make such good puppies..."
*Ask how long the breeder has been involved in the breed, and how many litters they breed each year. A lot more than three and there is a problem.
*Ask what they strive for in a breeding. Do they place temperment, looks, intelligence, work eithic, or what first?
*Ask what activities they do with their dogs and whether or not they belong to any breed clubs.
*Ask if the breeder has had any health issues with their dogs in their lines and if they screen for any other health problems that you haven't asked about.
*Ask about the health guarentee. Explore this in detail and ask about anything you aren't sure of.
*Ask about a guarentee for hereditary problems. If your pup doesn't get sick because of worms or parvo, that health guarentee doesn't mean squat if your pup develops hip dysplisia and needs major surgery.
*Lastly, ask about the price. If they charge you extra for papers (this is breaking AKC rules!) or change their price based on the puppies gender or color, that is a red flag.
*Also, be prepared for the breeder to ask you tons of questions on you and your family. If the breeder doesn't ask you anything but has the attitude of, "Great, when can you pick the pup up?" something is wrong.

And you are quite right, most people in a newspaper will think you are crazy for asking all of those questions, but a responsible breeder will welcome them as they show that you know what you are doing.

"If a news paper isn't the best place to get a shih tzu, where is? Because I would think people who list in the news paper may only be like a family that there dogs happened to breed or something"
If you need help searching for a reputable breeder, feel free to PM me and I'll do the best I can. A great place to start is the Shih Tzu breed club. Ads listed in the News paper are pretty much what you said, back yard breeders. Even if the litter was an oops litter, that still makes them a back yard breeder and they aren't someone you want to be giving money too. The term "Back yard breeder (BYB)" doesn't mean that the dogs are raised in the back yard, it basically means they aren't a responsible breeder. They may love their dogs to death and have happy dogs, but that isn't what makes a good breeder.

[Durbkat]

*Ask about how big the puppies will be when full grown. If the breeder mentions "teacup" "tiny toy" or "imperial" RUN.

*Also, be prepared for the breeder to ask you tons of questions on you and your family. If the breeder doesn't ask you anything but has the attitude of, "Great, when can you pick the pup up?" something is wrong.

Why?

Also I have a friend who bought a baby shih tzu a few months ago and the puppy seems just fine, do you think I should ask her who she got the dog from and see if they have any shih tzu babies for sell?