[skunkstripe]

Originally Posted by sheltiemom

The socialization aspect...public school is a terrible place to socialize your kids...it's the dog park of kids, you have no control over who's there, what behaviors they're picking up...*shudder*.

I feel bad for your son, I really do, but isn't the public school kind of like the real world?

[iwantmypup]

I agree Skunky.

[Shalva]

I have to say that the socialization piece is of no concern to me.... as I agree that school is not great socialization.... I am more concerned about the educational piece

[FilleBelle]

I dunno, I think "socialization" has something to do with it, too, though. I think kids need to learn what to do with themselves when they are ahead of the class and not suffiently challenged. That's going to happen in their adult lives, as well. I think kids need to learn how to stay awake during a boring class, lecture, meeting, or social gathering. That's a skill they need in their adult lives, too. I think kids need to learn how to get along with children they don't like and adults they don't respect so that they are not socially backward later in their lives.

I think homeschooling is great if the parents are qualified to teach and the motive is that the parent can give the child a better education than the local school. If the motive for homeschooling is that she's bored, doesn't like it, doesn't have friends, thinks her teacher is mean, or is getting bullied, though...I'm not so sure. I tend to think she needs to suck it up and learn how to deal with those difficult situations.

[Canadian Dog]

Originally Posted by sheltiemom

I have considered homeschooling at various points over the last few years. My daughter is gifted, and my son is borderline learning disabled. I spend 2-3 hours a night teaching them, on top of 7 hours a day at school. They are both in special programs for their different needs, one day a week during classes and one day a week after school, and I'm glad those programs are available, but it isn't enough. Some years I have loved their teachers, some years I have been unimpressed. Whenever I have a concern, the answer is always "work on it more at home". I see why people choose to homeschool.

When it comes down to it though, I know I don't have what it takes to homeschool full time. Knowing the material is one thing...at 2nd and 4th grade levels I know the material, explaining it to someone else is another thing entirely. I find even the few hours I spend working with my kids at home incredibly tedious and frustrating, and I can't even imagine trying to motivate them (AND MYSELF) on a daily basis.

The socialization aspect...public school is a terrible place to socialize your kids...it's the dog park of kids, you have no control over who's there, what behaviors they're picking up...*shudder*. Especially with my son being in some of the programs he's in, he's shuffled in with some kids who have real problems behaviorally and emotionally and it's something I'm not comfortable with. I'm still deciding if the benifits of the programs outweigh the negitives or not. Homeschooled kids have a social advantage imo.

That's it. Not only is there a concern that parents might not have the knowledge, but not everyone is capable of 'teaching' what they know. I would think very few parents have 'what it takes' to homeschool.

[sheltiemom]

Originally Posted by skunkstripe

I feel bad for your son, I really do, but isn't the public school kind of like the real world?

In some ways yes, in others no. On one hand, being exposed to different cultures or viewpoints or family dynamics or just people you don't like is a great learning experience. My kids get that in the neighborhood, in their extra curricular activities, at the store, and sure, in school too. But I'm talking about 9 year olds who are involved in stealing, vandalizing, who disrespect the teacher and disrupt the class. I see no value in having my son associate with budding criminals. He's an impressionable kid, he already feels like he doesn't fit in in class....my daughter I don't worry about in that respect. It depends on the kid, but I know my son and he is more succeptable to negative influence than some kids. I try to treat it as a learning experience, how not to act, hopefully in the end I will have more influence than his peers, but I really would rather not have him spending that amount of time with kids I don't approve of, particularly since I'm unable to be there.

[Willowy]

Ugh....I had a llloooonnnggg reply all typed out and then the computer went dead. Just turned off entirely. Must have been a power surge or a one-second power outage, because all the clocks are flashing, too.

Originally Posted by Shalva

oh don't even get me started about this.... do you know how many freshman in college I teach who flunk out after there first semester ???? who aren't ready for college??? who don't know how to create a comprehensible sentence????

I guess my question for you is "what is a decent job" ???? and what is a comprehensible sentence??? because I would guess that your ideas regarding those things and mine would be very very different.....

Are those college kids who flunk out usually homeschoolers? I doubt it.
I have a good job with the Postal Service. I find it enjoyable and fulfilling, and I'm good at what I do, and take pride in what I do. I make over $20 an hour, which is a big deal here in SD, most people make about $8-$10 an hour, college degree or not. I can make myself understood in writing. I know plenty of people who cannot. All of whom have a diploma from a public high school.

Originally Posted by skunkstripe

I'm going to disagree too.

If you can speak, read and write reasonable well and balance a checkbook, that's great, but I expect a LOT more from someone with a high school education.

the Amercian school system is basically in the toilet as far as I'm concerned. And don't get me started on "no child left a dime." Even so, I'd still rather see that than some parent or group of parents playing teacher. If they insist on doing so, then the kid needs to be subjected to standardized tests .

Of course I can do more than balance my checkbook. I just mentioned that because that's something a lot of people have trouble with.

Do you mean "No child left behind"? That is a joke. I think it's done more harm to what was left of the educational system, and now it's even worse.

I did take standardized tests, probably about every other year. I always scored in the 98-99 percentile, but all this proves is that I'm good at taking tests. I don't believe standardized testing can measure how well someone is actually learning, they just measure how good someone is at parroting what someone has told them.

Originally Posted by FriendsOfZoe

The curriculum is not the hard part about teaching, especially in elementary levels; the tricks of actually getting a child to LEARN and be interested are the hard part.

when I am teaching elementary school children, the trouble is not that you don't know the things they are learning, the trouble is in constantly presenting it in new and exciting ways so that the children can actually take an interest and learn.

Now, for this whole "unschooled" issue, I want to add that public schools prepare people for life.

I agree that the trick for elementary-school age kids is motivation. This is something that schools admittedly have trouble with, along with retaining quality teachers. I did go to 2 years of school, 3rd and 4th grades. Those 2 years did immeasurable damage to my desire to learn, and that took several years to get out of my system. My school---and it was a "good" school, with high teacher standards---was essentially a free daycare with busywork added in.

I guess you could say that public school prepares kids for life....if you think life means tolerating being bullied, ridiculed, and ostracized. I have a low tolerance for mistreatment, and I probably would have dropped out in middle school if my mom had not made the decision already. The main thing I learned in school was that girls are mean to each other. I'm sure I could have picked that up somewhere else, had I missed out on the chance at that time.

Amazingly, my mom almost had her teaching degree. She quit college with only a couple semesters left, because she was told that a South Dakota teaching certificate would not be valid in California, and she wanted to go marry my dad, who was living in CA. She intended to resume her schooling in Ca, but she never did. She was discouraged by her classroom experiences, because she says she felt like an underpaid babysitter. I have a lot of respect for teachers; they (most of them, anyway) do the best with what they have, but the educational system is broken.

I feel that I got a better education than most people I know. This might just be a sad commentary on the South Dakota educational system (lowest-paid teachers in the nation!), but it's the truth. When everyone around me is saying "nu-cu-ler" and "them things", and they can't count out change without the computer telling them how much to give, you really start to wonder about their standard of education.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by Willowy

Are those college kids who flunk out usually homeschoolers? I doubt it.
I have a good job with the Postal Service. I find it enjoyable and fulfilling, and I'm good at what I do, and take pride in what I do. I make over $20 an hour, which is a big deal here in SD, most people make about $8-$10 an hour, college degree or not. I can make myself understood in writing. I know plenty of people who cannot. All of whom have a diploma from a public high school.

the point was that what you stated was that the first year of college was a repeat of high school and you are very wrong about that....

and yes your idea of a decent job and mine are very very differnt

[Willowy]

What do you consider to be a decent job?

And I would venture to guess that the freshman who flunk out probably didn't pay attention in high school, either. It's not hard to graduate from most high schools, especially if you're a problem student they want to get rid of. My cousin made straight Ds and Fs, and they graduated him happily.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by Willowy

What do you consider to be a decent job?

there is nothing wrong with working at the post office....

[skunkstripe]

No, there's nothing wrong with working at the post office. Many people would be content with a routine civil service job, many would not.

But if everyone were to be content with it, no one would be starting companies, making advances in medicine, science or engineering or otherwise doing anything to keep this country ahead of so-called third world countries.
At some point we can all sell each other insurance, donuts and postage stamps, but our economy will be even worse off than it is now.

There was a study done years ago which showed that on average, the best educated children were in Japan, the best educated high school kids in Germany, and the best educated doctorate level people were in the US. Singapore vowed to improve their educational system to meet or beat all three. When such time comes as the Chinese take on that challenge, I suggest we all take up farming, because our economy will only be based on our ability to export natural resources. Any high technology, high value added prodcuts won't be available because no one will be able to design them, manufacture them, or even understand them.

[sparkybeagle]

I do understand why some choose to home school, particularly special needs and gifted students. However, not every parent is capable of educating their own child. I considered home schooling my son next year if he did not get into the magnet school we applied for (he did thank goodness). The school we are zoned for is far below par and boast the fact that they teach for the test (FCAT-NCLB). This is more often the case than not in Florida since there are $$'s attached to high scoring schools. I would not homeschool past kindergarten because I feel I would be doing my child a disservice. If I were cut out to be a teacher I would do just that, but I am not. Had he not been acceped to this particular school (random lottery) we would have moved to a better school zone or scraped up tuition for private school.

[emily445455]

I agree that not all parents are qualified to teach their children like a teacher does...then again not all teachers are qualified to teach either. I think I am though, thankfully...except maybe some math topics, hubby would have to teach those

I'm really not sure what our kids will do...public, private, or homeschool. Each have their strengths and weaknesses IMO. Both hubby and I went to public school and, after some stupid stuff, turned out just fine...so idk, we will have to see.

[bluedawg]

Just keep in mind, even if you live in a rural area, there is some amount of support both public and private for homeschooling families. Just because its homeschool dosent mean they are going it alone.

[cshellenberger]

I know here there are homeschooling 'groups' that help keep the students acheiving at or above the state standards. If a child is lagging behind and the parents can't hel they can get help from another person in the group. Students are regularly tested and there's alot of state supervision. They also arraing field trips, dances and other social events so the kids don't feel they're missing out on anything so both the education and social concerns are taken care of.

With teachers here that decide to bring things into the classroom that don't belong. Several have been suspended due to making hurtful political statements about our soldiers in a community that 80% of the sudents have at least one parent in the military and/or showing terrorist videos in the classroom (Daniel Pearl). It is becoming more and more popular to homeschool among military families.

[Willowy]

Yeah, my dad was in the Navy until he retired when I was 15 (he's a 20-year veteran). A lot of the families in our homeschooling group did homeschool so that the kids wouldn't have to switch schools every 3 years. That would have been rough, I think. Of course, the teachers overseas were employed by the military, so they definitely would have been out of a job if they dissed the military in any way.

They weren't all good teachers, though....my brother's kindergarten teacher was awful. She'd call them brats, threaten to hit them, make them sit in the dark closet, etc. She married a Marine and quit teaching after the first year. I don't know what the school would have done if she hadn't quit. She did more harm to my brother than anybody else in his life. A lot of kids in his kindergarten class ended up homeschooling. My 4th grade teacher screamed at us a lot. I'm not sure how she got away with that. The 5th grade teacher (I was sent to his room for "advanced classes" because they didn't have a gifted program) was very sarcastic and enjoyed humiliating his students. Fortunately, my 3rd grade teacher and my brother's 1st grade teacher were very nice. Reading this made me understand the problem of finding and retaining good teachers: http://www.slate.com/id/2195147/

I don't have kids, but if I ever do have kids, I will not send them to institutional school. I wholeheartedly believe in the unschooling conviction that, given the proper environment, one conducive to learning, a child will learn what he/she needs to know without being forced to learn. John Holt's writings are interesting reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Caldwell_Holt

Or, as Mark Twain said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" .

[duck_girl]

Wow.
You guys got quite a discussion going on here.
I'm writing, like, nine books! Does anyone want to see a preview of one of them? (I know, not quite with this thread, but I just thought I might post this.)

[FriendsOfZoe]

Briteday, I'm sorry your daughter has had such negative experiences in public schools. That is truly a sad story, but I believe it as oftentimes teachers are told to focus so much on the students with special needs that they forget to pay attention to the advanced students. My experiences throughout public school were entirely different, and that is probably just the difference between public school in Connecticut and where you live (Texas, I think??)...although I did not go to one of the best public schools in Connecticut even.

And just a pet peave of mine...reports on each president does NOT equal U.S. history...but that's a topic for another time.


Everyone else,
Of course there are problems with public schools, but I think that we should work harder to fix them than to just pull our kids out and ignore the problem. I'm doing my part...are you?


By the way, harrise, the sixth grade math curriculum in Massachusetts now focuses solely on money, including learning about things like credit and balancing a check book (this came as a surprise to me, as I had never learned about money in school). I think this is just great and would like to see a review of this/introduction to more advanced "life math" concepts taught in high schools as well. It's certainly a step in the right direction.

[harrise]

Originally Posted by FriendsOfZoe

Everyone else,
Of course there are problems with public schools, but I think that we should work harder to fix them than to just pull our kids out and ignore the problem. I'm doing my part...are you?

Why not also support those who feel that is their best option?

Tell you what. I will do my part by not having a kid you have to worry about because they never set foot in a public school. ¿Does that work for you?

[Criosphynx]

all i learned in public school was how evil other children can be. In fact, being in public school, with anxiety disorders, made my life living HELL.

Also I watched my friends succumb to violence, drugs and just general social stupidity. I didn't even go to a "bad" school.

I was bored to death in classes. The honors classes covered the same stuff at the same pace, but ten times the amount of homework. Its ludicrous.

On the other hand, everyone i've ever met who was homeschooled were "bubble children" and had no minds of their own. They spouted their parents views like they were worth their wieght in gold. Not saying this is every kid tho

Iam tolerant of sexual preferences, religions, races, etc that are different than my own. It could be said that its because i was exposed to them at school. But then again, my parents were tolerant of those things too so it might have squat to do with school.

I guess it all boils down to the parents and how often they let their kid "get out" and experience reality. Honestly i learned more off watching PBS at home then in most of my classes, i was years ahead of probably 90% of the kids.