[MyRalphie]

Wow, a lot put into your post there. Thing is, all the paragraphs and supposed "research" on earth can't change the facts, right on the labels of foods:

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Peanut Hulls, Chicken by-product Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Egg Product, Soybean Oil, Corn Gluten Meal...

Yup, the first/main Ingredients of a food "prescribed" for my family's dog by a veterinary practice which sells it!
This is so not right.

Could you kindly enlighten us as to the nutritional benefits to a canine or an Obligate Carnivore (Felines) with these ingredients? (Of course, you would have to cite an actual Nutritional Specialist to back it up, though.)
And, pray tell, just what the heck is Soy Mill Run, anyways?
OOPS! Soy and corn gluten are proven allergens!

Now look at the ingredients right on the labels for the alternatives discussed in this thread, and perhaps consider a career with them if you really care about the health of these animals?

I wouldn't want to even imagine if there was no Internet, and people were still at the mercy of mainstream "experts" and heavy influences regarding foods.

[sarasmom]

I have to put my 2cents in......chicken meal does NOT contain beaks, etc. That is chicken by-products. Chicken meal is ground chicken with the water removed, as chicken is 40% water. Corn is hard to digest....but the point is that it is one of the top allergens for dogs. It doesn't matter how cooked it is, if your dog is allergic to it. If corn is not a filler, then why do most grocery store brands use it? It is a source of protein that AAFCO accepts as contributing to the protein level %, but it can't be counted as useable - dogs need animal protein. That is their metabolism. They can "survive' but not "thrive' on plant protein. They are omnivorous, but they NEED animal protein. Have you ever seen a stray dog grazing in a corn field? Animal tested usually means on rats....rats can survive well on dog food containing corn...they utilize corn protein well.

Purina, Science Diet, Iams....all make some good foods - but that doesn't mean all their foods are good. Science Diet may have started out with good intentions, but to say money doesn't matter to them - ask their CEO to take a pay cut.....

But, I do agree with being cautious about reading the label. These pet food manufacturers do know what we are looking for and how to get around it and still stay within the guidelines. Also, ask yourself this....if I call every dogfood manufacturer, how many of them are going to tell me they use beaks and feet, corn is inappropriate but we use it anyway, or of course we use euthanized animals as it saves us money.?

[tsjd7155]

Originally Posted by Danegirl2208

i feed a raw prey model diet..its all i will ever feed, i like knowing exactly what goes into my dogs meals each day

also Evangers, if you dont have the time to cook.......

[uwiniwin]

I would like to speak about food allergies in dogs in reply to your question.

Food additives that cause allergy in dogs are usually found to be

Ethoxyquin

BHA (Butylated Hydroxianisole)

BHT (Butylated Hydroxytoluene)

These are the additives that are usually included in ready foods to preserve the fat and prolong their shelf life. Other additives are propylene glycol, sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite.

For some dogs these chemicals are reported to cause a range of health disorders. When you shop for dog food, look closely at the ingredients on the packaging.

When you locate food stuffs that have very little or no additives, buy buy them in small quantities (unless you have adequate freezer space) as these foods will not have a long shelf life.

[flipgirl]

I had emailed the company who makes Kibbles and Bits because I was looking at the site to respond to a poster on another forum. I noticed that two of the ingredients were propylene glycol and hydrochloric acid. I'm no scientist but from what I remember in high school about hydrochloric acid, it's quite caustic. So I emailed the company to ask about those ingredients. The response said that propylene glycol was acceptable in certain amounts but it never addressed the hydrochloric acid. Since then, I've been told that aspirin and some drugs contain hydrochloric acid at certain concentrations. But I'm not sure I'd want it in my dog's food. If a company stands behind their product, then they should be able to explain why an ingredient is added to their product.

[uwiniwin]

All these factors lead you to think that fresh, home cooked food is best for dogs, as far as you know what ingredients to avoid (a) food types that cause health problems and (b) food types your dog is allergic to.

BARF, fresh vegetables, wholewheat flour, cooked eggs are believed to be safe and healthy ingredients to cook your dog's meals every day.

[FredMom]

Originally Posted by Pamela

Wow! I have never heard of some of the brands listed in the posts. I feed Duke large breed Iams and Dutchess Iams puppy food. They love it and Duke has done wonderful on Iams. there are so many to choose from. Are the ones listed above bought online or in specialty stores? Just curious since I have never heard of them. We have to drive an hour away just to buy Iams and 3 hours to get to a Petco or PetsMart.

Stick with the food that your dog is on now. If IAMS is keeping your dog healthy then stick with it. As high as the price of gas is, there is no need to drive an hour away just for some dog food when your dog is already happy and healthy on IAMS. Ignore the negative comments. Every dog is different. Some dogs need Holistic/Premium brands to live healthy, some don't.

[poodleholic]

Pamela,
You'll probably have to order online, then. Petsmart doesn't carry the premium brands. Pet Food Direct has pretty good prices.

For canned food, I use Evanger's, and sometimes Wellness.

[wyx]

Hydrochloric acid is stomach acid so it's probably not toxic but I'd like to know why it's there too. I'd be more concerned about propylene glycol (antifreeze - it causes liver failure), and why it needs to be there. And even more about the corn, soy etc.

I would never feed a dog wheat flour either, whole or otherwise, and I won't eat it myself. Here's why: it contains very little useful nutrition, and it's main consituents are carbohydrate (starch), protein (gluten) and cellulose fiber. These are implicated or known to cause the following diseases:

carbohydrate - type II diabetes, obesity, heart disease, alzheimers, cancer

gluten - many autoimmune diseases including rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis (in dogs this is known as degenerative myelopathy), fibromyalgia, migraines, celiac disease, type I diabetes, hashimoto's (autoimmune hypothyroid)

fiber - IBS, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, crohn's disease, colon cancer

[Kibblelady]

Originally Posted by wyx

Hydrochloric acid is stomach acid so it's probably not toxic but I'd like to know why it's there too. I'd be more concerned about propylene glycol (antifreeze - it causes liver failure), and why it needs to be there. And even more about the corn, soy etc.

I would never feed a dog wheat flour either, whole or otherwise, and I won't eat it myself. Here's why: it contains very little useful nutrition, and it's main consituents are carbohydrate (starch), protein (gluten) and cellulose fiber. These are implicated or known to cause the following diseases:

carbohydrate - type II diabetes, obesity, heart disease, alzheimers, cancer

gluten - many autoimmune diseases including rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis (in dogs this is known as degenerative myelopathy), fibromyalgia, migraines, celiac disease, type I diabetes, hashimoto's (autoimmune hypothyroid)

fiber - IBS, vitamin and mineral deficiencies, crohn's disease, colon cancer

There are a number of points on this whole thread I would like to address:

1. Flint River Ranch does not ship food for free. The cost of shipping is simply included in the cost of the product (I know this because I used to be a distributor) many people misunderstand this as well as many distributors. The shipping is not free.

2. Gluten does *not* cause DM in dogs. DM in GSDs is hereditary not caused by a protein in wheat, rye and barley. Wheat, rye and barley are full of nutrition as far as protein content, vitamins and minerals, energy content and many other things.

3. The website dogfoodanalysis.com is only one person's opinion and based on nothing other than looking at ingredient panels. It does not take into consideration digestability nor the guaranteed analysis and is biased against all foods containing grains. There are many myths on the site and much misinformation so I would be careful about taking the site seriously.

4. Propylene glycol is *NOT* antifreeze. It is simply in the same chemical family and this is a common myth.

5. Gluten is just a protein found in wheat, rye and barley. It does not *cause* disease however people and animals with sensitivities to gluten protein of course cannot eat foods containing this protein. It does NOT *cause* Celiac disease as that is an inherited disease not aquired.

6. Fiber is NOT an unhealthy ingredient, it is a necessary one and there are a variety of fibers that exist all with various benefits.

7. Hydrochloric acid is used to alter PH values and for flavor basically.


If anyone is interested in having questions answered or would like to read about other pet food myths or topics please visit Kibblesense or visit our message board community for pet food discussion and answers at http://www.eastgsd.com/forum

Thank you,

Cherri

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Kibblelady

There are a number of points on this whole thread I would like to address:
Cherri

Thank you for addressing those topics. I was thinking what the hell-Since when is fiber not benificial.

[wyx]

Originally Posted by Kibblelady

Gluten does *not* cause DM in dogs. DM in GSDs is hereditary not caused by a protein in wheat, rye and barley. Wheat, rye and barley are full of nutrition as far as protein content, vitamins and minerals, energy content and many other things.

The protein in grains is poor quality and not worth the risk to the immune system. As for vitamins and minerals, there are much richer sources without all the empty calories and anti-nutrients. Energy? I always cringe when I see that Beneful advert bragging about having "carbohydrates for energy". "Energy" is marketing-speak for "empty calories". Most dogs I've seen already have rolls of excess "energy" on their bodies. What they need is food with more nutrition and less "energy".

Propylene glycol is *NOT* antifreeze. It is simply in the same chemical family and this is a common myth.

I get Sierra antifreeze from an auto parts store, it's definitely propylene glycol. Less toxic than ethylene glycol but why in the world would I want to feed it to my dog?

Gluten is just a protein found in wheat, rye and barley. It does not *cause* disease however people and animals with sensitivities to gluten protein of course cannot eat foods containing this protein. It does NOT *cause* Celiac disease as that is an inherited disease not aquired.

I guess you could say that sunburn is an inherited disease because light skin is genetic. When you quit eating gluten, the celiac disease goes away. Gluten intolerance is not a disease any more than light skin is.

Fiber is NOT an unhealthy ingredient, it is a necessary one and there are a variety of fibers that exist all with various benefits.

Well, the benefits of fiber are relative to the diet. The type of fiber in grains causes mechanical damage to the lining of the intestine, which secretes extra mucus to protect itself. If the rest of your diet is poor quality, this is a good thing. If your diet is healthful and not excessive, fiber wastes good nutrients and causes unnecessary damage. Here's some interesting reading on the subject: http://www.fibermenace.com/fiber/myth.html

[Kibblelady]

Originally Posted by LMH

Thank you for addressing those topics. I was thinking what the hell-Since when is fiber not benificial.

You're quite welcome

Cherri

Originally Posted by wyx

The protein in grains is poor quality and not worth the risk to the immune system.

Risk to the immune system? Can you provide some peer reviewed studies about the dangers of proteins in grain to the immune system? Thanks.

Also, what makes you say that the protein in grains is "poor quality?" What are you basing that on?

I get Sierra antifreeze from an auto parts store, it's definitely propylene glycol. Less toxic than ethylene glycol but why in the world would I want to feed it to my dog?

http://www.dow.com/productsafety/fin...g.htm#ProdUses

What exactlly is your point? You were wrong. These two chemicals are not the same. Propylene glycol is on the GRAS list and used in many liquid medications for people as well as hundreds of other uses.

I guess you could say that sunburn is an inherited disease because light skin is genetic. When you quit eating gluten, the celiac disease goes away. Gluten intolerance is not a disease any more than light skin is.

That is totally incorrect, totally. Fair skin (less melanin in the skin cells) is a perfectly natural genetic variant, not a disease. An intolerance to a protein to the extent that the body overreacts and destroys it's own tissue is a disease...no comparison.

Well, the benefits of fiber are relative to the diet. The type of fiber in grains causes mechanical damage to the lining of the intestine, which secretes extra mucus to protect itself.

Says who?

http://www.fibermenace.com/fiber/myth.html

The above is called propaganda and marketing....

Cherri

[Striker2807]

I don't know if this site has been posted, but it list over 400 ingredients in pet food and gives you a little information about them as well as rates them from 1 to 5 stars.

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pe...edients_1.html

I definitely recommend checking it out!

[wyx]

Originally Posted by Kibblelady

Risk to the immune system? Can you provide some peer reviewed studies about the dangers of proteins in grain to the immune system? Thanks.

Well, hundreds of them. Pubmed searches on "celiac autoimmune" turned up 863 results. "gluten immune" turned up 610 results. If anyone is interested go here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez and enter the search phrase of your choice (quotes aren't necessary).

Also, what makes you say that the protein in grains is "poor quality?" What are you basing that on?

The protein in grains is incomplete. Unlike meat, eggs or dairy it doesn't have the amino acids necessary to support life. Your dog will die of a protein deficiency if its diet has too much grain in it. Humans, too.

What exactlly is your point? You were wrong. These two chemicals are not the same. Propylene glycol is on the GRAS list and used in many liquid medications for people as well as hundreds of other uses.

Sure, I have no problem admitting I am wrong about the liver failure (doubly wrong in fact, because it's kidney failure that's caused by ethylene glycol), but you were wrong too, when you insisted that

Propylene glycol is *NOT* antifreeze

. None of us is perfect, hmm?

But that still leaves the question of why anyone would want to feed propylene glycol to their dog? What's the nutritional benefit?

That is totally incorrect, totally. Fair skin (less melanin in the skin cells) is a perfectly natural genetic variant, not a disease. An intolerance to a protein to the extent that the body overreacts and destroys it's own tissue is a disease...no comparison.

It's a natural genetic variant. Neither Humans nor dogs needed to develop a tolerance for gluten in their evolution, because grain (especially the modern high-gluten grains) were not a significant part of their diet until very recently. Celiac disease is a disease. Gluten intolerance is not a disease - there's no pathology except in the presence of gluten, and since humans and dogs are perfectly healthy without any in their diet, it's not really a problem either, more like an inconvenience for the food manufacturers because grain is very profitable, and for consumers because they have to learn how to feed themselves without all those processed food products that contain gluten.

Says who?

Here's a related article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5274420.stm

The above is called propaganda and marketing....

Call it what you like, but what makes you so sure he's wrong? Anyway, what's he marketing? Not fiber or fiber supplements, that's for sure. Or kibble, for that matter.

[Kibblelady]

Originally Posted by wyx

Well, hundreds of them. Pubmed searches on "celiac autoimmune" turned up 863 results. "gluten immune" turned up 610 results. If anyone is interested go here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez and enter the search phrase of your choice (quotes aren't necessary).

Again, these are referring to disease. Are you inferring that an entire population of a species should be treated as if they have a disease because some do?

The protein in grains is incomplete. Unlike meat, eggs or dairy it doesn't have the amino acids necessary to support life. Your dog will die of a protein deficiency if its diet has too much grain in it.

The above demonstrates your lack of knowledge on proteins and nutrition. A dog will not die if their diet has a large segment of grain in it. A dog will not thrive if they do not get their essential amino acids they need. Dogs have none that cannot be gotten from plant matter..... Plants being incomplete proteins does not mean they are "bad" or anything of the like, it just descibes their content. This is why vegans need to vary their diet to be sure that they get their required amino acids as no plant source contains all of them (although soy comes very very close)...that is why they are called "incomplete" as opposed to "complete" like animal protein.

Sure, I have no problem admitting I am wrong about the liver failure (doubly wrong in fact, because it's kidney failure that's caused by ethylene glycol), but you were wrong too, when you insisted that . None of us is perfect, hmm?

How was I incorrect?

But that still leaves the question of why anyone would want to feed propylene glycol to their dog? What's the nutritional benefit?

It has nothing to do with nutritional benefit but has everything to do with how some products are made. Many products need ingredients for flow, construction and makeup to enable to product to be made. This does not make the ingredient dangerous or unhealthy nor does it mean it has to impart nutritional qualities.

Here's a related article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5274420.stm
Call it what you like, but what makes you so sure he's wrong? Anyway, what's he marketing? Not fiber or fiber supplements, that's for sure. Or kibble, for that matter.

How about his book? It is an advertisement for a book.

We all have to be careful about what information we are willing to accept as factual, possible or just plain nutty. There are many paranoid people out there that write book and use small quantities of truth blown all out of proportion and twisted in order to serve their cause or support their agenda.




Cherri

[wyx]

Originally Posted by Kibblelady

Again, these are referring to disease. Are you inferring that an entire population of a species should be treated as if they have a disease because some do?

Given the fact that gluten may cause increased gut permeability in everyone, not just people with celiac (and the disease itself is estimated to be heavily underdiagnosed), it would be wise to be cautious.

The above demonstrates your lack of knowledge on proteins and nutrition. A dog will not die if their diet has a large segment of grain in it. A dog will not thrive if they do not get their essential amino acids they need.

A dog can only eat so much food. A diet too high in grains, potatos or other starchy filler won't leave room for the missing aminos from another source. If pancreatitis or diabetes or heart disease from all the excess carbs doesn't kill it first, a dog on a diet too high in grains will die from protein deficiency.

How was I incorrect?

Read your post again. You said: "Propylene glycol is *NOT* antifreeze". But in fact it is, and there are several commercial antifreeze products based on it.

It has nothing to do with nutritional benefit but has everything to do with how some products are made. Many products need ingredients for flow, construction and makeup to enable to product to be made.

Well, whatever. Why would I want to feed something non-nutritional to my dog? I don't care about the benefit to the dog food manufacturer. What's the benefit to the dog?

It is an advertisement for a book. We all have to be careful about what information we are willing to accept as factual, possible or just plain nutty. There are many paranoid people out there that write book and use small quantities of truth blown all out of proportion and twisted in order to serve their cause or support their agenda.

That book is definitely outside the box thinking, but consider who profits from consumers staying firmly inside that box. My personal experience with eating a very low fiber diet leads me to believe he may be right. It's nice to not have all that flatulance, cramping etc. that's for sure. Our dogs are a lot less gassy than grain fed dogs too.

Speaking of agendas, just look at all the propaganda and marketing that goes into selling kibble.

[Kibblelady]

Originally Posted by wyx

Given the fact that gluten may cause increased gut permeability in everyone, not just people with celiac (and the disease itself is estimated to be heavily underdiagnosed), it would be wise to be cautious.

May? As I said Celiac disease is a disease. Gluten protein does not cause the disease anymore than allergens cause allergies.

A dog can only eat so much food. A diet too high in grains, potatos or other starchy filler won't leave room for the missing aminos from another source. If pancreatitis or diabetes or heart disease from all the excess carbs doesn't kill it first, a dog on a diet too high in grains will die from protein deficiency.

That is simply not true no matter how much you believe it to be so. I also do not prefer a high carb food for my pets but I will not agree to false facts and information blown out of proportion to support an argument. All pet foods contain all the essential amino acids for pets....they have to. Of course not all products give the same results but you are incorrect in saying that a high grain diet will kill a dog, it will not.

Read your post again. You said: "Propylene glycol is *NOT* antifreeze". But in fact it is, and there are several commercial antifreeze products based on it.

Well, to be more precise neither chemical is "antifreeze" as "antifreeze" is a product made from certain componants. The typical accepted chemical associated with antifreeze is ethylene glycol and we all know this. If we follow your line of thinking anything put into a car's receptical to provide cooling is "antifreeze" which would include water. Is water antifreeze to you as well?

Well, whatever. Why would I want to feed something non-nutritional to my dog? I don't care about the benefit to the dog food manufacturer. What's the benefit to the dog?

What do you mean "well, whatever?" You made a comment and I asked you to back it up and you can't. It is not about benefiting the manufacturer but about things which the majority of the general pet public do not understand and that is how things are made and enables them to be able to make them.

That book is definitely outside the box thinking, but consider who profits from consumers staying firmly inside that box. My personal experience with eating a very low fiber diet leads me to believe he may be right. It's nice to not have all that flatulance, cramping etc. that's for sure. Our dogs are a lot less gassy than grain fed dogs too.

I have found the opposite with myself. What does that prove? Nothing....
None of my dogs have any gas either and their food contains grains, and fiber.

Speaking of agendas, just look at all the propaganda and marketing that goes into selling kibble.

Oh I totally agree with you there! That is what my website is about and what drives me to post and write articles. Realize though all manufactuers are doing it, not just the whipping boys like Iams and Hills...all of them.

Cherri

[LMH]

Originally Posted by wyx

The protein in grains is incomplete. Unlike meat, eggs or dairy it doesn't have the amino acids necessary to support life. Your dog will die of a protein deficiency if its diet has too much grain in it. Humans, too.
Sure, I have no problem admitting I am wrong.
.

Haha-your dog will not die and Humans certainly will not die. One plant protein may not provide the 9 essential aminos which is why you should eat a variety of non meat protien foods, that would definitely make up the difference and you would therefore not die.

[wyx]

Originally Posted by Kibblelady

May? As I said Celiac disease is a disease. Gluten protein does not cause the disease anymore than allergens cause allergie

I guess it depends on your definition of disease. Without the gluten there is no immune reaction, no inflammation. Everything functions normally. No gluten, no illness.

I will not agree to false facts and information blown out of proportion to support an argument.

Sorry, your dog WILL die if you don't give it enough complete protein. Grain doesn't contain complete protein. If the diet is too high in grains it will not get enough complete protein and will die. It will take awhile because it can live off it's own muscle tissue for awhile, but eventually it will die, even if it's getting plenty of calories. Look up Kwashiorkor.

Well, to be more precise neither chemical is "antifreeze" as "antifreeze" is a product made from certain componants. The typical accepted chemical associated with antifreeze is ethylene glycol and we all know this. If we follow your line of thinking anything put into a car's receptical to provide cooling is "antifreeze" which would include water. Is water antifreeze to you as well?

What I'm calling "antifreeze" is a product that I bought at the auto supply store in a half-gallon jug with a label on it that says in big letters "Antifreeze". Brand name Sierra. Active ingredient propylene glycol. Contains no ethylene glycol. I got it at Cut Rate or maybe it was Shucks. One of those big auto supply chains. In the Antifreeze section. I think it might actually be antifreeze. Anyway my radiator hasn't frozen up since I put it in there.

What do you mean "well, whatever?" You made a comment and I asked you to back it up and you can't. It is not about benefiting the manufacturer but about things which the majority of the general pet public do not understand and that is how things are made and enables them to be able to make them.

Not sure what I'm supposed to be backing up, but my "whatever" comment was just to indicate my lack of caring much about the whole dog food manufacturing process.