[wolfsnaps]

Are there any? Do grains have any business being in dog food?

Why aren't there more tests being done to further understand canine nutrition?

[HersheyPup]

I am not feeding a food with grain in it right now, but I have in the past. I do believe that feeding a food with grain can help a skinny dog gain weight. Corn in particular seems to help with weight gain, if that's what your dog needs.

[Michiyo-Fir]

If there is grains, there's a bit more carbs in the food that could prevent acidic urine. Some dogs have very very acidic urine on grain free and high protein.

[Kathyy]

Grains make it easy to make convenient to feed kibble. Grains have calories. If your dog cannot tolerate high fat levels or enough meat to keep it alive then high calorie grains will help. Sassy needs rice for calories, otherwise she would be eating a 25% protein 75% fat diet which probably wouldn't suit her pancreas.

[DobManiac]

Adding grains could also cut cost for feeding dogs that require 3-4% of their weight in meat. That can get rather expensive for a large dog, and some dogs just have high metabolisms.

[dieterherzog]

Originally Posted by Kathyy

Grains make it easy to make convenient to feed kibble. Grains have calories. If your dog cannot tolerate high fat levels or enough meat to keep it alive then high calorie grains will help. Sassy needs rice for calories, otherwise she would be eating a 25% protein 75% fat diet which probably wouldn't suit her pancreas.

Yup. This is true. My dog was consistently underweight and hungry under prey model. Just a small amount of whole grains (oats, barley, brown rice etc.) helped with that.

[Labsnothers]

Grains are an economical source of calories and other nutrients. In the real world, most dogs are eating grain containing foods and doing fine. Our current culture where some can choose to feed high meat diets to their dogs is an abnormality. Through much of human history, meat was scarce. People that had very little meat wouldn't be feeding large amounts of good meat to their dogs. I see nothing suggesting dogs haven't been eating grain and offal most of the last 10,000 years.

I have found very few studies on dog nutrition available for free on the net. What little I have found supports the idea dogs do well on properly processed grains as part of their diet. What I haven't seen is a scientific study supporting grain free dog diets.

I don't intend to take time refute all the misinformation I expect to find in this thread.

[GSP Mom]

Dogs cannot digest grains

[Labsnothers]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

I don't intend to take time refute all the misinformation I expect to find in this thread.

As I said....

[CorgiKarma]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Our current culture where some can choose to feed high meat diets to their dogs is an abnormality. Through much of human history, meat was scarce. People that had very little meat wouldn't be feeding large amounts of good meat to their dogs. I see nothing suggesting dogs haven't been eating grain and offal most of the last 10,000 years.

Sure, but that doesn't mean grain is a biologically appropriate diet. When it comes to my dog, I'm not necessarily looking for economical. I'm looking for an appropriate, nutritious diet.

My vet is a nutritionist. He recommends a high protein, grain-free diet. I may not have gone through years of nutrition training, but he has. I think I'll take his word for it.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Grains are an economical source of calories and other nutrients. In the real world, most dogs are eating grain containing foods and doing fine. Our current culture where some can choose to feed high meat diets to their dogs is an abnormality. Through much of human history, meat was scarce. People that had very little meat wouldn't be feeding large amounts of good meat to their dogs. I see nothing suggesting dogs haven't been eating grain and offal most of the last 10,000 years.

I have found very few studies on dog nutrition available for free on the net. What little I have found supports the idea dogs do well on properly processed grains as part of their diet. What I haven't seen is a scientific study supporting grain free dog diets.

I don't intend to take time refute all the misinformation I expect to find in this thread.

Through much of human history, nobody owned dogs as "pets". As such, people who had dogs were:

1. Cattle or Sheep farmers. Lots of scrap meat available.
2. Toy/pet breeds. Owned by the wealthy few. Meat available.
3. Hunting breeds. Owned by hunters, meat available.
4. Guard breeds. Owned by the wealthy. meat available.
5. Livestock Guardian breeds. (cattle, goat, chicken, etc) meat available.
6. Mushers who used sled dogs for transport, usually transporting fish. Meat available.

The rest of the world who were too poor to afford meats, were for the most part too poor to afford dogs. The population increase of dogs as pets has more to do with the recent abundance of food.

There is no scientific studies that outright supports raw, grain free, or grain based diets. All of them have equal amounts of indirect evidence.

Most nutritionists believe that carnivores should eat like a carnivore. Dogs are carnivores.

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

As I said....

You know you're out of evidence when you start opening posts with strawman arguments and ad hominems. Instead of spending time with redundant posts that are going to be disproven and nobody is going to take seriously, try researching new information and coming back with a better case.

[dieterherzog]

Originally Posted by GSP Mom

Dogs cannot digest grains

This is not true. Many processed grains are digestible by dogs. Many studies have shown this. However, dogs have no nutritional need for grains - they are empty calories the way white bread is to humans. Dogs also cannot process high amounts of carbohydrates since they lack the appropriate digestive enzymes to perform this function.

[Labsnothers]

Originally Posted by RBark

Through much of human history, nobody owned dogs as "pets". As such, people who had dogs were:

1. Cattle or Sheep farmers. Lots of scrap meat available.
2. Toy/pet breeds. Owned by the wealthy few. Meat available.
3. Hunting breeds. Owned by hunters, meat available.
4. Guard breeds. Owned by the wealthy. meat available.
5. Livestock Guardian breeds. (cattle, goat, chicken, etc) meat available.
6. Mushers who used sled dogs for transport, usually transporting fish. Meat available.

The rest of the world who were too poor to afford meats, were for the most part too poor to afford dogs. The population increase of dogs as pets has more to do with the recent abundance of food.

There is no scientific studies that outright supports raw, grain free, or grain based diets. All of them have equal amounts of indirect evidence.

Most nutritionists believe that carnivores should eat like a carnivore. Dogs are carnivores.



You know you're out of evidence when you start opening posts with strawman arguments and ad hominems. Instead of spending time with redundant posts that are going to be disproven and nobody is going to take seriously, try researching new information and coming back with a better case.

Another factless post.

[K9companions]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Another factless post.

Seemed an intellegent, historically thought out post to me...

[InkedMarie]

I don't think some grains are bad for dogs but I don't like to see grain heavy foods. It all depends on the dog. I have a ten year old sheltie who can eat anything. If I chose a food solely for him, I'd probably try Innova or Nature's Variety Prairie. I have two other dogs who do best with no grains so I'm able to feed them the same food, Orijen adult.

[Kathyy]

Thanks RBark, nice post. We do forget dogs weren't owned by everybody just 100 years ago. And kibble was only invented a few decades ago.

[Bones]

My family in Thailand feed their dogs a mixture of rice and left over meats (half of which is cooked). I wouldn't say they were the healthiest dogs but the oldest was a 10 year old mutt who was happy (could even 'smile' at the yim (smile in thai) command). Without the rice filler the dogs would probably be pretty thin. I don't buy the end of the world mentality when it comes to some dog foods having grains in them, though I prefer to feed bones grain free food because I have that option.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Bones

My family in Thailand feed their dogs a mixture of rice and left over meats (half of which is cooked). I wouldn't say they were the healthiest dogs but the oldest was a 10 year old mutt who was happy (could even 'smile' at the yim (smile in thai) command). Without the rice filler the dogs would probably be pretty thin. I don't buy the end of the world mentality when it comes to some dog foods having grains in them, though I prefer to feed bones grain free food because I have that option.

I agree. I never said that dogs were going to die a long, torturous death on a grain diet. Like you, I feed raw/grain free because I have that option and so far, the evidence I have seen and the results on my own dogs support it. People should feel what they feel most comfortable with, within reason (vegan diets ARE torture, however.)

My dogs are high performance dogs, so I see results of improper diet faster than the average pet owner. That leads me to believe what I do, but by no means does it mean people who believe otherwise are horrible. Labsnothers believes grain-based diets are good for his dogs, and that's just peachy. I simply disagree.