[nico8]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

You are the one bashing the common foods. It is up to you to prove you have cause to.

As for foods to die for, I have read excerpts and seen nothing but allegations, junk science, and outright lies. I have no idea how some many people can be so sure of things with no proof behind them.

Nowhere in this thread were common foods "bashed"...This isn't the first thread that you've come out swinging when nothing had been said to trigger your defensiveness.

I'm just the guy who attempts to balance out all of your rhetoric. I'll say that premium foods offer better ingredients all day...because that's obvious. The ingredients are on the bag. You've said it yourself that dog foods should be primarily meat based. That's why I don't understand why you can also say that filler-based, "cornfood" is just as good as a meat based food. You're a hypocrite at best.

When you make statements that have nothing to stand on but your own personal opinion, and try to disguise them as fact, I have a problem with that. When you call everyone that chooses to feed higher end food "gullible", I have a problem with that. When you note other people's lack of evidence, I note yours.

Your debate skills are rusty , to say the least. It seems you don't have a sense for the natural give-and-take. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with what you feed your(or the guide dog schools) dog, but this one way street your mind is on isn't healthy. Do you ever step outside the box and attempt to see where other people are coming from?

[sassykzt]

Originally Posted by olgak82

Hi All,
Thank you for the responses. To answer some of the posed question of the Malassezia disease, i am not sure if the vet considered this or not. I'll bring it up at our next week's visit, however I doubt that that is it. I read about the symptoms and he is only exhibiting one of them, itching, no blackness or hardness of skin.
I agree with most of the post, I think there are degrees of qualities in the different dog food. In general most of the time I read the ingredients most of them are scary, especially when its says something like "Chicken Meal", like what the heck is that?
I am going to switch him to Natural Balance Duck and Potato, since I was feeding him Eukanuba large puppy breed formula before, and that had chicken in it. And I'll see if that helps with the itching. What does worry me about the allergy formulas, is they don't seem to have any fruits or veggies it them, so I figure I'll see if he stops scratching, and if he does try another brand or another formula with meat and veggies.
Olga

Since your puppy is only 4 mons. old he would not be exhibiting the hardened skin & darkening yet-- those symptoms take a while to appear when the yeast goes untreated. Please do ask the vet to rule this out-- I figured since they did 4 skin scrapings this was one of the things they would have checked. Often, I've seen a vet put the dog on steroids- which help the itching but do not solve the underlying cause and subject the dog to all the horrible side effects As for the food-- you can see there are some varying opinions-- you may want to consider a grain free food. Don't forget canines are carnivores(not omnivores like humans). For some interesting reading you may want to check out dogfoodproject.com and dogfoodanalysis.com. Good luck to you & your pup-- I hope he stops itching soon

[Kina_A]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

You are the one bashing the common foods. It is up to you to prove you have cause to.

As for foods to die for, I have read excerpts and seen nothing but allegations, junk science, and outright lies. I have no idea how some many people can be so sure of things with no proof behind them.

I guess its junk science to you because it didn't agree with you.

Well the Animal Protection Institute of America also did the same reseach that Ms. Martin did and came up with the same findings.

You can read their report What’s Really in Pet Food at www.api4animals.org,

But I guess because it doesn't agree with you, then that one would be "junk science and outright lies as well!

[Kathyy]

http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/...-dog-foods.jsp

How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.

[nico8]

Originally Posted by Kathyy

http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/...-dog-foods.jsp

How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.

Awesome find Kathyy...this is an excerpt from the link :

"Why should dogs be fed a diet with animal-based proteins?
Even though they are often fed plant-based diets, dogs are not herbivores. They are omnivores, animals that eat both animal- and plant-based foods.

The body structure of domestic dogs is similar to that of its carnivorous ancestors and relatives the wolf, coyote, fox, and jackal - ideal for eating animal flesh.

* Domestic dogs possess the enlarged carnassial teeth that carnivores are named after, which are efficient for holding prey.
* The gastrointestinal tract is simple and does not have the capacity to digest large amounts of plant products.

In addition, high quality animal-source proteins contain all the essential amino acids dogs need, whereas some plant-based proteins may be deficient in some essential amino acids. So although dogs are classified as omnivores, they are best fed as carnivores.

Return to Top


Research findings
Recent studies by The Iams Company examined how the type of protein in a diet affected body composition of adult and senior dogs.1



Adult and senior dogs were fed diets with varying amounts of protein from chicken and corn gluten meal, and their body composition (muscle versus fat tissue) was analyzed. In addition, levels of key blood and muscle proteins were measured.

Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had

* decreased lean tissue
* increased body fat
* decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status

This was independent of the overall dietary protein level (12 or 28%), which was also examined in each of the four test groups.

As dogs age, body composition and muscle-specific proteins decline. Therefore, another study looked at the differences between feeding senior dogs a 32%-protein chicken-based diet, a 32%-protein chicken and corn gluten meal diet, or a 16%-protein chicken-based diet.

Senior dogs fed the 32%-chicken protein, chicken-based diet had better body composition and a muscle-specific protein pattern identical to that in healthy young adult dogs. However, those results were not seen in either of the other two diets."

Keep in mind this is from Iams... have fun with this one Labsnothers.

[MoosMom]

Originally Posted by Kathyy

http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/...-dog-foods.jsp

How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.

WOOT!!! A fabulous find! THANK YOU THANK YOU

[railNtrailcowgrl]

Originally Posted by nico8

Awesome find Kathyy...this is an excerpt from the link :
Adult and senior dogs were fed diets with varying amounts of protein from chicken and corn gluten meal, and their body composition (muscle versus fat tissue) was analyzed. In addition, levels of key blood and muscle proteins were measured.

Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had

* decreased lean tissue
* increased body fat
* decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status

Keep in mind this is from Iams... have fun with this one Labsnothers.

THANK YOU! You are officially my hero, and I'm worshiping your signiture as well, so true, as you just proved it.

[Ayanla]

Meanwhile the top ten ingredients of Iams "ProActive Health"

Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Meal, Chicken Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product...

Chicken as number one almost looks nice, until you remember that the notation of "chicken" means they're weighing it before it's dehydrated, a tricky way to move it higher in the ingredient list than it really should be. Once you remove the water content, it'd be much further down on the list, leaving Corn Meal as the number one ingredient and Ground Whole Grain Sorghum (grain, for those not familiar) as the second. So a company that has itself done a study showing the importance of a meat protein diet for dogs is selling a food that consists primarily of corn and sorghum.

Well their new "healthy naturals" is probably better, right? I mean...it has healthy and natural right there in the name.

Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewer's Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product,...

Ooh...at least we're up to chicken by-product meal as the first ingredient now (dropping chicken down to 4 to account for "true" weight after dehydration). Aww, but then we've got rice and corn meal again.

Surely their "Lamb Meal and Rice" is corn free. It sounds like an allergy formula.

Lamb Meal, Brewer's Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Natural Chicken Flavor,...

Dangit! Oh sure, we've moved up to having an actual animal meal as the primary ingredient, but check out the next four! Rice, Corn, Sorghum, and more corn!

[Kina_A]

Originally Posted by Kathyy

http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/...-dog-foods.jsp

How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.

That's awesome Kathy!! Good find!

I'm just as confused as how a company would do the research and then not follow their finding. Strange strange strange if you ask me. You'd think they would have done the research to improve their product!

[Kathyy]

Shameful. It is cost and a lot of dogs do survive and meet the owners expectations eating it.

[misty073]

Originally Posted by sassykzt

Since your puppy is only 4 mons. old he would not be exhibiting the hardened skin & darkening yet-- those symptoms take a while to appear when the yeast goes untreated. Please do ask the vet to rule this out-- I figured since they did 4 skin scrapings this was one of the things they would have checked. Often, I've seen a vet put the dog on steroids- which help the itching but do not solve the underlying cause and subject the dog to all the horrible side effects As for the food-- you can see there are some varying opinions-- you may want to consider a grain free food. Don't forget canines are carnivores(not omnivores like humans). For some interesting reading you may want to check out dogfoodproject.com and dogfoodanalysis.com. Good luck to you & your pup-- I hope he stops itching soon

This is interesting and I wish I had heard about this yeast sooner. Our Yorkie had little crusty things in his ears and used to chew the fur on his legs. We took him to the vet and the vet said food allergies. My daughter changed his food (he was on royal canine I belive) and she put him on go salmon and oatmeal. His ears cleared up but he still had the fur chewing, I switched him to a raw food (it was a premix but still had oatmeal in it) and he still had the fur chewing. She didnt like feeding raw so continued the go food. When we moved in Sept he became our dog and I couldnt get the same raw premix here so both our dogs were switched to a meat only raw (sometime veggies) but no grains...his fur finally started to grow back...But sadly he was taken from us on Oct 3 (RIP) so I will never know if the meat only diet was what he needed. He also seemed to have dark skin...I would often look at his tummy and think it was weird that it was more of a dark grey color than pink, but he was also a darker dog than our other dog so who knows.

[Jordan S]

Labsnothers ,I'd LOVE a response the that iams corn-gluten protein vs chicken protein study!

[shets114]

It is definetly true that dogs will do better with a higher meat percentage food.

How can any consumer tell how much meat is actually contained in the food they are feeding.

Unless it is specifically written on the bag as a guaranteed analysis and an as fed quantity. No one out there could tell the true percentage from reading a label.

If you can I have about a hundred labels I'll send you and you can tell me...

If you look at most of the super foods of today you see so much fluff with fruits and berries and tapioca and potatoes and oatmeal.

Which one has more meat?

Chicken Deboned, Chicken Meal, Potato Dehydrated, Turkey Meal, Canola Oil, Sweet Potato Dehydrated, (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Yeast Culture, Natural Dried Chicken Liver, Dicalcium Phosphate, Lysine, Guar Gum, Sea Salt, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Acai Berry Freeze-Dried, Blueberry Dried, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Venison Broth, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Natural Venison Flavor, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Rosemary Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Natural Celery Flavor, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Natural Color (tumeric), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3, Niacin, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Complex, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.


OR............

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Beet Pulp, Rice Bran, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flax Seed, Dried Egg Product, Brewers Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Garlic, Dried Cheese, Chondroitin Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Niacin, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride

[Pai]

Originally Posted by Ayanla

Dangit! Oh sure, we've moved up to having an actual animal meal as the primary ingredient, but check out the next four! Rice, Corn, Sorghum, and more corn!

Brewer's Rice isn't even 'real' rice... it's the hulls and other scraps left over from processing whole rice.

[Ayanla]

Originally Posted by shets114

It is definetly true that dogs will do better with a higher meat percentage food.

How can any consumer tell how much meat is actually contained in the food they are feeding.

Unless it is specifically written on the bag as a guaranteed analysis and an as fed quantity. No one out there could tell the true percentage from reading a label.

If you can I have about a hundred labels I'll send you and you can tell me...

If you look at most of the super foods of today you see so much fluff with fruits and berries and tapioca and potatoes and oatmeal.

Which one has more meat?

Chicken Deboned, Chicken Meal, Potato Dehydrated, Turkey Meal, Canola Oil, Sweet Potato Dehydrated, (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Yeast Culture, Natural Dried Chicken Liver, Dicalcium Phosphate, Lysine, Guar Gum, Sea Salt, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Acai Berry Freeze-Dried, Blueberry Dried, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Venison Broth, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Natural Venison Flavor, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Rosemary Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Natural Celery Flavor, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Natural Color (tumeric), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3, Niacin, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Complex, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.


OR............

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Beet Pulp, Rice Bran, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flax Seed, Dried Egg Product, Brewers Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Garlic, Dried Cheese, Chondroitin Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Niacin, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride

That's actually pretty easy...it's the first one.

Ingredients are listed by weight, so that means there is more of the top ingredients than the bottom ones. Three of the top four ingredients on the first one are meat. Granted the first is deboned chicken, so it should drop down to around four once you take out the water, but you've still got two other good meat sources in chicken meal and turkey meal.

The second one is chicken meal as the primary, but then look at what comes next. There's no more meat source. Chicken fat is more for flavoring that protein content. I would wager the second food has less protein over all than the first.

[shets114]

Not as easy as you would think. I'll post the actual meat percentages tonight.

[Ayanla]

Originally Posted by shets114

Not as easy as you would think. I'll post the actual meat percentages tonight.

You don't know the actual meat percentages unless you're manufacturing it. I'm assuming you meant protein percentage?

Also please post which foods they are. Keep in mind that other types of ingredients also offer protein, it's just not meat protein and the ingredients label doesn't separate differentiate. Brown rice and rice flour both offer protein, but it's not meat based protein. Melamine also boosts the apparent protein level in dog food, but obviously that wouldn't make Melamine tainted food better than a non tainted food.

I still stand by what I said. The first food you listed is a better food, with three quality meat ingredients in the top four.

[shets114]

two 30-20 formulas can have different meat percentages. Even a 41-21 can have a lower meat percentage than a 30-20.
that was the question I was asking. How can you tell how much meat is in a formula just by reading a ingredient list.

[wolfsnaps]

Originally Posted by nico8

Haha it's most definitely brother... I'm now strongly considering changing my avatar to a picture of myself lifting weights, while chewing tobacco, and peeing standing up

Ok, I would LOVE to see that pic!

The two food ingredients listed by Shets is a no brainer. The first food is a holistic food. It has more meat and is generally a good food. The second food doesn't even come close as far as quality. I personally don't need to know the brand name of a food to tell you if it is good, just look at the ingrediants. I think a lot of people on this forum can do that. In fact, this forum has been very eye opening to me and has taught me a lot.

Thanks to all you 'regulars' who have taught me so much!



Anyways, to the OP and the comment on chicken meal ( I know it has already been answered and I would like to second that!), think of meal as dehyraded muscle and bone from the specified source (lamb meal coming from lamb, beef meal coming from cattle, etc). So, Good stuff with no water. When it gets cooked into the kibble, it doesn't lose water weight so however much was put in before cooking is the same amount after cooking. This can not be said for fresh chicken (or lamb, or duck, or whatever).

But fresh ingredients aren't bad either. When I look for a food, I like to see a fresh ingredient and a meal together in the ingredient list before the first fat source (chicken fat, canola oil, etc).

But to get back to the topic, potatoes can be a good thing. They are a nutritious carb that helps bind a kibble. They are found in grain less kibbles and allergy forumla kibbles. They are not a cheap filler, so rest assured.

As far as good brands go, there are many out there to choose from. Everyone will give you a different answer. Here are some foods that work for me: Wellness, Natural Balance, Solid Gold, Taste of the Wild, etc. I have also heard good things about Orijen, Innova, and Evangers. The best thing to do is do the research and try one. See how it does for you and your dogs.
Base your opinions on ingrediants, not fancy packaging or gimmicky advertising. And Don't pick one solely based on price. I work at a pet store and was talking to a lady (yesterday, funny enough) about her Yorkie. It had horrible smelling tear stains and allergy type symptoms (itching, licking, etc). I tried to educate her on nutrition but she wasn't having it. She just got the puppy from a breeder not long ago and the breeder was feeding Royal Canin. According to this lady, since the food was so expensive, it HAD to be good. SOmetimes you can't argue with people, especially not a customer. No offense to RC feeders, but the fact that it has corn in it bothers me and the price does not justify whats in it to me. Some of their 2.5 pound bags are over 16 bucks. Thats about 8 dollars a pound! Wow.

Ok, not to get into a rant about certain brands, but the best thing to do is to research the brands and make a decision based on facts, not price.

Good Luck!

[shets114]

Well Wolfsnaps, not so fast.. Your correct that it is a holistic food. However the first food is only 38% as fed and the second is 44% as fed. So if a canine is trully a carnivore as everyone on here seems to have an opinion on then the second food would offer more than the first.

So keep in mind when you are researching all these new formulas that have sprung up on a daily basis. That just because a food lists several meat sources doesn't necessarily mean there is more meat.