[dieterherzog]

I recently got into a discussion with my in-laws about feeding raw, they seem to frown on it and showed me some things which they have read including the opposition to raw foods from Purina and Hill's. I was wondering if anyone could help me debunk/prove these so I can offer a more concrete opinion on feeding raw.

From Purina: http://www.purina.com/dogs/food/FactsAboutFeeding.aspx

Facts About Feeding Dogs
Some dog owners forget that humans require a variety of foods to ensure the consumption of nutritionally balanced meals. A quality dog food has a proper balance of all the nutrients a dog requires together with a high level of palatability.

Adding human food to a nutritionally balanced commercial dog food may upset the nutrient balance of your dog’s diet. Ideally, table scraps should not be fed. You may also be creating behavior problems. Your dog may begin to steal food from the table or the food preparation area. Try feeding your dog at regularly scheduled times, such as when the family is having breakfast or dinner. Feed only enough to maintain your dog in good body condition. Ignore its coaxing for additional food, or give hugs instead.

Here are some of the foods to watch out for:

- Milk is a food and not a substitute for water.
- Repeatedly adding raw eggs to a dog's diet can cause a deficiency of the vitamin biotin, which can lead to dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), loss of hair and poor growth.
- Some raw fish can cause a deficiency of the vitamin thiamine. Signs of a thiamine deficiency include anorexia (complete loss of appetite), abnormal posture, weakness, seizures and even death.
- Raw meats may contain parasites and bacteria and do not contain a proper balance of nutrients if fed alone. Although meat is a source of protein, it has very low levels of calcium, a mineral dogs require for proper bone and tooth development. If large quantities of raw meat are fed over time, skeletal problems may develop.
- Raw liver, fed daily in large quantities, can cause vitamin A toxicity in dogs.
- Small soft bones (such as pork chop or chicken bones) should never be given to your dog, as they may splinter and lodge in his mouth or throat.

Thanks!

[Marsh Muppet]

I'd say mostly true with some qualifiers. Bacteria seems to be less of a problem for dogs, but those with depressed immune systems can contract salmonella &etc. Commercially raised meats (chickens especially) are fed antibiotics that have produced some marvelously virulent strains of bacteria. Feeding homegrown barnyard chickens could very well introduce parasites. My understanding is that contracting trichinosis for commercially raised pork is almost unheard of, these days. Uncooked free range pork would be a very bad idea.

Vitamin A toxicity is a real thing. As a fat soluble vitamin, its level builds up in the system. I don't know how much liver a dog would have to eat to create the condition, but it can be fatal (in extreme cases).

True about raw eggs.

I think what they mean by "table scraps" is feeding dogs left over Mac & Cheese (like from the blue box). It's pure starch and not even any cheese. It adds volume that displaces actual nutrition. Nutritious table scraps are not a problem. The potential behavioral issues mentioned are a training thing, not a feeding thing.

I don't feed raw so I can't really comment about the bones. I could see small chicken bones becoming a problem for a dog who doesn't chew, but I really don't know.

Raw fish can cause a thiamine deficiency, and there are some nasty parasites that can be passed to your dog (salmon poisoning). Heavy metals can accumulate in the fatty tissue of wild-caught fish (cooking has no effect on that). Read the pamphlet that comes with your state's fishing license. Most recommend ingesting a very limited amount of fish from lakes and rivers. I know of people who eat trash fish like carp and gar, but I wouldn't touch that stuff--cooked or otherwise--unless I was 10 days away from my last meal.

[Ayanla]

Originally Posted by dieterherzog

...
- Milk is a food and not a substitute for water.
- Repeatedly adding raw eggs to a dog's diet can cause a deficiency of the vitamin biotin, which can lead to dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), loss of hair and poor growth.
- Some raw fish can cause a deficiency of the vitamin thiamine. Signs of a thiamine deficiency include anorexia (complete loss of appetite), abnormal posture, weakness, seizures and even death.
- Raw meats may contain parasites and bacteria and do not contain a proper balance of nutrients if fed alone. Although meat is a source of protein, it has very low levels of calcium, a mineral dogs require for proper bone and tooth development. If large quantities of raw meat are fed over time, skeletal problems may develop.
- Raw liver, fed daily in large quantities, can cause vitamin A toxicity in dogs.
- Small soft bones (such as pork chop or chicken bones) should never be given to your dog, as they may splinter and lodge in his mouth or throat.

Thanks!

I'm by no means an expert in raw, but some of that can be countered with just general common sense. Really the only debunking necessary is that both Purina and Hills have a vested interest in discouraging raw feeding. It's like the beef industry writing an article about how harmful vegitarianism is.

The behavior thing is ridiculous. Unless you're feeding them from your table while you're eating, they're no more likely to beg if they're fed a raw diet than if they're fed kibble. I guarantee you if I fed my dogs kibble off the table during dinner time, they'd beg at the table every night.

Yes, raw meat contains bacteria and possibly parasites. Dogs have antibacterial properties in their saliva (lysozyme). See below for sources. They are far less likely to get sick from it than we are.

Raw feeders feed bone and/or raw egg shell to supplement calcium. Raw isn't about feeding only meat.

The liver thing is useless. "fed daily in large quantities" is a qualifier that can make any number of things deadly. Kibble fed daily in large quantities can result in morbid obesity and early death. Chicken bones don't splinter raw. It's only when cooked that they're soft and splintery. I'm not sure on pork bones. Even if some of the smaller bones are easily splintered, there are others in the same animal that are not. Think about it. If all chicken and pork bones were soft and splintered easily, the animals would have a hell of a time just staying in one piece every day.

Sources:

Dog saliva was tested and found to be bactericidal against E-coli (the big beef contaminant) and Canine Strep: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2125128

Study from Journal of Dental research circa 1953 with some info regarding the antibacterial properties of canine saliva: http://jdr.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/32/5/729.pdf (it's a pdf file. The info on dog saliva is on page 6)

[DobManiac]

Scroll to the bottom for info on liver:
http://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2009-05NL.php

Info on Raw Eggs:
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-...-raw-eggs.html (Feeding raw eggs...)

And this should get you started on everything else:
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

[bully]

Originally Posted by dieterherzog

I recently got into a discussion with my in-laws about feeding raw, they seem to frown on it and showed me some things which they have read including the opposition to raw foods from Purina and Hill's.

You don't say. That's a shocker

[trumpetjock]

Originally Posted by dieterherzog

Here are some of the foods to watch out for:

- Milk is a food and not a substitute for water.
- Repeatedly adding raw eggs to a dog's diet can cause a deficiency of the vitamin biotin, which can lead to dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), loss of hair and poor growth.
- Some raw fish can cause a deficiency of the vitamin thiamine. Signs of a thiamine deficiency include anorexia (complete loss of appetite), abnormal posture, weakness, seizures and even death.
- Raw meats may contain parasites and bacteria and do not contain a proper balance of nutrients if fed alone. Although meat is a source of protein, it has very low levels of calcium, a mineral dogs require for proper bone and tooth development. If large quantities of raw meat are fed over time, skeletal problems may develop.
- Raw liver, fed daily in large quantities, can cause vitamin A toxicity in dogs.
- Small soft bones (such as pork chop or chicken bones) should never be given to your dog, as they may splinter and lodge in his mouth or throat.

This list is pretty shady.

Milk as a substitute for water? I've never given my dogs milk, and have never heard of any raw feeder using milk as either a water substitute or source of calories.

Eggs are true, but as they alluded to, it takes a massive amount of eggs to cause this problem. At the levels that you would feed raw eggs with any kind of research into balancing a raw diet, they actually increase coat and skin quality.

Parasites and bacteria are not such an issue with dogs. The only ones to really worry about are in pork, and 99% of experienced raw feeders will tell you to freeze your pork for a week prior to feeding to kill off the nasties.

The liver point is true. But again, only in the doses they state themselves. I don't know any raw feeder with half a brain that feeds liver "daily in large quantities". It's one or the other, not both. You either feed a large portion once a week, or a tiny chunk once a day.

The bones thing is totally bogus. Those bones will splinter if cooked, but they will not splinter if they are raw. The way raw bones are put together on a molecular scale makes it impossible for them to splinter when uncooked.


This list is extremely reminiscent of political punditry. Everything on the list is technically true, but there are so many caveats to each point that it invalidates the whole thing. Unfortunately, a large number of people will look at it and just see the nasty dangerous words and not the way it is all said, and go more and more towards fearing raw feeding.

[DJsMom]

I agree completely with everything Trumpetjock says.
I do believe that a good kibble CAN br a complete & balanced meal, & personally if I were to feed kibble I wouldn't add table scraps or people food. But I really do believe that a good raw diet is best, not only nutritionally, but mentally as well - much MUCH closer to natural than processed kibble.
But, to each his own, as long as each is doing what they feel is best for their own dog.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I ask people 2 things:

1) look in the dog's mouth. This is an animal who is genetically designed to eat raw meat and bones. The teeth tell the story. No grinding molars for grains or to crush vegetable matter. Plenty of canines, cutting molars, and jaw power for crushing and eating bones.

2) How healthy can it be for ANY ANIMAL to live with no fresh food in the diet? For the life of me, I can't understand how this one escapes most rational people.

[bully]

Originally Posted by trumpetjock

Unfortunately, a large number of people will look at it and just see the nasty dangerous words and not the way it is all said, and go more and more towards feeding a dog raw.

"Towards" or "further from"?

[trumpetjock]

Originally Posted by bully

"Towards" or "further from"?

Fixed, thanks.

[bully]

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers

2) How healthy can it be for ANY ANIMAL to live with no fresh food in the diet? For the life of me, I can't understand how this one escapes most rational people.

Are there actually many "rational" people? Over many years I've now realized they aren't many.

[Kathyy]

Took me 12.5 years. I am fixed now. Dogs need fresh natural foods same as we do.

Polar bear liver is a killer in very small amounts. Less than an ounce will kill a human. So don't feed it to your dog, okay? Common turkey liver is extremely high in vitamin A as well. Really best to check the liver on USDA or nutritiondata to be sure you are feeding a reasonable amount of liver. Copper is very high in beef liver.

Body builders over do stuff like eggs. 20 raw egg whites is too much. One raw egg white a day is just fine. If the whole egg is fed then the biotin in the yolk far exceeds the amount that is destroyed by the amount of enyzme in the white.

I don't know how much raw fish is a problem. It contains an enzyme that destroys thiamin. Thiamin is low in several common meats raw fed dogs get already. Pork has a lot of that one. This is something to think about. Feeding pork away from raw fish might help.

Some raw feeders do say that chop bones have sawn edges and those sawn edges are not only sharp, may be partly cooked.

Milk can be a problem for weaned dogs. The enzyme required for the digestion of the milk may not be produced any longer.

Commercial kibbles are oversupplemented and just about any fresh wholesome food substituted for it up to 25% won't cause your dog to keel over from some dread deficiency. Plain raw meat is so rich in nutrients it takes very little make it into a complete diet. All those mineral supplements in kibble do just fine.