[SweetJeannie]

Hey everyone

I have 2 pomeranians.

Aiko - 6 months old
Mischa - 6 years old

Aiko has been on Nutro since he was a puppy. He doesn't like it. He will only eat it because I give him no other choice. Before his cute little face would get him table scraps and treats to supplement his lack of eating much of it.

We've cut off that addiction. No more human food, and extremely limited treats.

I want to get him something that he wants though. That is healthy but taste's good too!

Mischa I just adopted from the shelter. Apparently she's been on Science Diet which she loves. However I read a lot about how it's not a good food and I would love to switch her to something healthy but good tasting as well.

ALSO, since their ages differ so much, do I have to get different food? I'm hoping I can purchase one kind of food for them both.

I was told by several people that because Pomeranians tend to have lots of teeth problems that dry food is best.

Anyone have any suggestions?

I'm trying to do my own research on it, and I've looked at several sites. However I am curious about other peoples opinoins.

[Labsnothers]

I would try him on the Science Diet. At the worst, an adult chow will delay a puppy reaching its adult size. Many believe an early switch is better for large breeds and I don't think it would hurt a Pom.

Most of the negatives you read on Science Diet are based on speculation about the ingredients. While there is a wide body of evidence it is fine, there is nothing but anecdotes to condemn it.

[Kina_A]

I also have small breed dogs. My Cav/bichon just turned 7 months and I have a Lhasa /Bichon mix who just turned 11. I have them both on the same food. I have them both on California Naturals Lamb meal and rice adult. Its good for all life stages. I know that natura line as well as Natural Balance are for all life stages.

When I first got my puppy I discussed when switching her to an adult food and she said that anywhere between 5 to 6 months of age is fine to switch her.

If you're concerned by all means discuss it with your vet as to when to switch your pup. But switching her now would be fine.

[canteloupe]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Most of the negatives you read on Science Diet are based on speculation about the ingredients. While there is a wide body of evidence it is fine, there is nothing but anecdotes to condemn it.

Ugg, I wish you would stop giving people food advice on every single food thread that pops up on here. I've ignored it for the most part, but I feel like you are truly doing harm.

Science diet is a totally crappy food. Just because you believe it's fine for your dogs doesn't mean that you should post inaccurate information supporting it online. There is not a "wide body of evidence that it is fine" and there is far more than "speculation" and "anecdotes to condemn it."

To the OP, check out DogFoodProject.com and DogFoodAnalysis.com to learn about dog foods and the reasons why so many people are moving towards using higher quality foods.

Here's a comparison.

Orijen Adult dog food ingredients:
Ingredients
Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh lake whitefish, fresh northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt...
Here's Hill's Science Diet Canine Adult Active Formula:
Ingredients:
Corn meal, chicken by-product meal (including white meat, dark meat, liver and other internal organs), animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), dried beet pulp, vegetable oil, dried egg product, flaxseed, preserved with BHT and BHA, minerals (potassium chloride, iodized salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite)...

Corn meal, a known allergen that's inappropriate for canine consumption, as a first ingredient? Chicken by-product meal? Animal fat, from an unidentified source? Beet pulp, a controversial filler? BHT and BHA preservatives, which are carcinogenic?

Labsnothers, I believe it's unethical for you to tell people to feed their dogs like this, and as long as you continue to do so, I am going to regard all of your posts here with suspicion. It also makes me feel compelled to post, just to counterbalance the stuff that you post.

To the OP, I hope you find something that your dogs will like, and that will help them be healthy. I know that my pets vastly prefer most of the higher quality foods. One, who never had much of an appetite before I made the switch, loves his food now.

[Labsnothers]

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.

I get quite sick of seeing lists of ingredients posted. I have seen them all and seen through the allegations.

What I haven't seen is a controlled study showing that any ingredient is bad.

[canteloupe]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

I get quite sick of seeing lists of ingredients posted. I have seen them all and seen through the allegations.

What I haven't seen is a controlled study showing that any ingredient is bad.

Oh yeah, and you have seen a controlled study showing that corn meal is good for dogs?

Are you affiliated with one of these dog food companies? Please answer honestly.

[SweetJeannie]

Thank you guys for your responses. I will definately check out that website.

Canteloupe, I assume your feeding your small breed dogs Orijen Adult dog food ?

(If not what are you feeding them?) What's your opinion on your dog's coats? My Aiko (6mths old) has a really really soft coat and his skin is very soft under it. He's been on a different food though.

Now, I'm concerned about Mischa's coat, because its extremely course, in comparison to Aiko's and her her skin under her coat is dry and in some places scaley feeling.

Im wondering if a change in food might help this.

[SandyPuppy]

I recommend Kirkland brand from Costco. Good ingredients, and very cost effective. Since switching Sandy and my cats over to kirkland food, they all have extremely soft and silky coats. They also all LOVE the taste.

Canteloupe, I agree with your opinions about science diet, but beet pulp does have health benefits and is not harmful unless your dog is allergic to it.

[canteloupe]

Originally Posted by SweetJeannie

Canteloupe, I assume your feeding your small breed dogs Orijen Adult dog food ?

(If not what are you feeding them?) What's your opinion on your dog's coats? My Aiko (6mths old) has a really really soft coat and his skin is very soft under it. He's been on a different food though.

Now, I'm concerned about Mischa's coat, because its extremely course, in comparison to Aiko's and her her skin under her coat is dry and in some places scaley feeling.

Im wondering if a change in food might help this.

I actually am currently dogless. I'm planning to adopt in the near future (I went last weekend but didn't find the right dog). I have three cats. My last two dogs came to me eating Science Diet, but I switched and fed a variety of foods.

I rotate between Orijen, Blue Buffalo Wilderness, Innova EVO, Taste of the Wild (although I stopped using TOTW recently because their parent company uses ethoxyquin in the fish meal), Nature's Variety Instinct, Go! Natural, and others. Rotating provides a greater variety of nutritional sources, which is a good thing, and it works better with the premium foods than with foods like Science Diet (which often cause rough transitions). It depends on your dog, though. Some dogs just don't do well with changes in diet, so for them it might be best to find one food and stick to it. I used Orijen as an example in my first post because Orijen is very popular on here and is widely regarded as one of the best.

Changes in coat and skin quality are one of the biggest differences that I've noticed. My last dog was very itchy and had chronic flea problems that defied frontline plus and other flea treatments. His coat was also noticable rough and dry. I had a huge bag of Science Diet that he came with, so I took a while to finish it, but once I switched him to better food there were immediate improvements. He was less itchy right away, and over the subsequent month his coat got smoother, finer, and silkier. The food was much more palatable to him, also. He used to eat hungrily for a minute, and then come find me and act like he wanted more food -- but then I'd see that there was still food in his bowl that he didn't want to eat. He much preferred the foods with higher meat content.

My cats are better too. One of them had greasy fur and dandruff, which is totally gone. All three have more energy. One of them had chronic digestive problems, including constipation, and in the years since I switched to better foods he's done much better.

Whatever food you choose, make sure you transition very slowly. The nutritional profiles of Nutro and Science Diet are very different than those of the premium foods, so it'll take time for their digestive systems to adjust. Also, you might want to start with a food that's more in the midrange in terms of protein content. The foods I was talking about are mostly around 42% protein, and that's a lot more than SD or Nutro. If you look around, you should be able to find a high quality food that is in the mid-thirties.

Oh, I have an idea. Check out Wellness Core. Their foods are high quality and grain free, but are 34% protein so they might be an easier adjustment. You could try the Wellness Core Original Adult for the 6 year old dog, and Wellness "Just for Puppy" for the 6 month old dog until he's a year old.

Maybe you could also check out Natural Balance foods. They are higher quality, but again they have lower protein levels so they might be an easier transition for your dogs.

Also, higher quality foods have fewer filler ingredients, so you don't need to feed as much. (And one of the nicer side-effects is that they poop a lot less, too.) If you can't find these foods at a store near you, they have them all at petfooddirect.com.

[canteloupe]

ETA: One thing I forgot to suggest is fish oil supplements. You can buy fish oil loose, that's meant for pets, but I prefer buying it in gel capsules. Fish oil degrades very quickly with exposure to air, so the capsules keep it fresh. You can buy it in the vitamin section at the super market, poke a hole in the capsules, and add it directly to the food. Fish oil is very popular for improving coat condition.

[bully]

Originally Posted by canteloupe

ETA: One thing I forgot to suggest is fish oil supplements. You can buy fish oil loose, that's meant for pets, but I prefer buying it in gel capsules. Fish oil degrades very quickly with exposure to air, so the capsules keep it fresh. You can buy it in the vitamin section at the super market, poke a hole in the capsules, and add it directly to the food. Fish oil is very popular for improving coat condition.

I've now fallen for the Orijen 6 fish adult which has all that fishy goodness. My pup is doing fabulous on it.

[Labsnothers]

Originally Posted by canteloupe

Oh yeah, and you have seen a controlled study showing that corn meal is good for dogs?

Are you affiliated with one of these dog food companies? Please answer honestly.

Well, http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-com...ins%20in--.pdf While true the presenter was from ADM, the academics would have shredded him if it was a bunch of marketing hype.

There is also the common sense matter of all the fine, healthy dogs eating foods with varying levels of corn.

The ball is really in your court. You are attacking conventional practice that seems to be working sell.

No, I am not affiliated with any food company, distributor, ingredient supplier, etc. On the other hand, I have actually seen pro premium food posts listing a website where you can buy the food. Astro turf is quite common on the web. I would love to know where the funding really comes from for many of the sites pushing premium food, homemade, and raw. And what about all the ads? somebody is making good money on all that.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Well, http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-com...ins%20in--.pdf While true the presenter was from ADM, the academics would have shredded him if it was a bunch of marketing hype.

I'll admit a skimed and didn't read, but I have to get ready for work.

My first problem is the article claims that dogs are omnivores. How is it possible for dogs to be omnivores when they don’t produce the enzyme that breaks down cellulose? They only why they are able to gain any nutrition at all from this vegetables, grains, and fillers is by them being very highly processed and broken down. There is now evidence that points to dogs being opportunistic carnivores, or scavengers.

The article is also written to the pet food companies, so they can cut back cost by using cheaper grains as opposed to the more expensive meat products. He mentions meat protein sources for one paragraph and then states he will never bring them up again. I think you have just given us a look into the compromises these companies make to reach the bottom line. The whole article is about coast management, not what is in actuality best for the canine.

Someone told me once not to believe everything I read on the interenet. Oh, wait, that was you!

[bully]

Originally Posted by DobManiac

I think you have just given us a look into the compromises these companies make to reach the bottom line. The whole article is about coast management, not what is in actuality best for the canine.

Did you have to go and dig up the real world business model and how that may affect a product mass produced to just barely pass minimal health regulations???

Now you've done it.

[nico8]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.

I get quite sick of seeing lists of ingredients posted. I have seen them all and seen through the allegations.

What I haven't seen is a controlled study showing that any ingredient is bad.

Yeah I'd get sick of it too if I was feeding my dog a sub par food. I'm sure the people who eat at McDonald's everyday don't enjoy reading the nutritional facts of their double quarter-pounder with cheese while they munch away.


I've still yet to see your oh-so-conclusive evidence that feeding corn and by-products is healthier than fresh real meat, real eggs,fish oils etc.

[StellaLucyDesi]

There are plenty of foods to choose from on the market today...they range from supermarket foods with IMO poor ingredients to the cadillac of foods (like Orijen) with "human grade" ingredients. And it is correct to say that some dogs do very well with the supermarket brands, like Purina One, Iams, etc. and some do not do well on those. Conversely, some dogs do fantastic on the super premium, holistic, all-natural foods and some do not. So, after saying that, my suggestion is to do your research....by that I mean, 1. figure out your budget for dog food., 2. consider your breed of dog, its age, health, etc., 3. look at the ingredients in the foods your are considering and also the protein, fat, fiber (and possible calcium, phosphorus) contents and caloric value of the foods, and read some reviews online or ask other people who may be using the food how their dogs have done on it...and you could also discuss with your vet if you feel the need., 4. try to locate some samples of the foods you would like to try (or just choose one to try at first and go from there), 5. use the samples as treats or mix a very small amt. into your dogs current food to see if it is palatable to your dog, 5. after deciding which food to use, mix slowly into current food (you might also try a probiotic while mixing) until your dog is totally on the new food., 6. give it at least 1 month, maybe longer to see how your dog does on the new food.

It may take a few trys to find a food YOUR dog does well on, or you might find the "one" food on the first try, but always remember to go slow in transitioning. IMHO, there is no one "best" food! It all depends on how your dog does on the food. I have 4 dogs and will admit to trying quite a few different brands of dog food over the years...it doesn't help/hurt that I work in a pet store lol. Anyway, my dogs are currently eating Nature's Variety Instinct and NV raw medallions. Some of the foods I have used in the past and like for MY dogs are Orijen/Acana, FROMM 4-star, Eagle Pack Holistic Select, Merrick, Natural Balance, Wellness CORE, Solid Gold. As you can see, by my list, I prefer the super premium foods for my dogs. However, they did not do well on EVO, or regular Wellness, or Blue Buffalo. Personally, for me, my choices of foods will always be from the super premium types, but if my dogs absolutely could not handle these, then I would probably use Eukanuba or Pro Plan. Good luck in your search and just remember that what food YOU choose for YOUR dogs is YOUR personal choice.

[nico8]

Originally Posted by StellaLucyDesi

There are plenty of foods to choose from on the market today...they range from supermarket foods with IMO poor ingredients to the cadillac of foods (like Orijen) with "human grade" ingredients. And it is correct to say that some dogs do very well with the supermarket brands, like Purina One, Iams, etc. and some do not do well on those. Conversely, some dogs do fantastic on the super premium, holistic, all-natural foods and some do not. So, after saying that, my suggestion is to do your research....by that I mean, 1. figure out your budget for dog food., 2. consider your breed of dog, its age, health, etc., 3. look at the ingredients in the foods your are considering and also the protein, fat, fiber (and possible calcium, phosphorus) contents and caloric value of the foods, and read some reviews online or ask other people who may be using the food how their dogs have done on it...and you could also discuss with your vet if you feel the need., 4. try to locate some samples of the foods you would like to try (or just choose one to try at first and go from there), 5. use the samples as treats or mix a very small amt. into your dogs current food to see if it is palatable to your dog, 5. after deciding which food to use, mix slowly into current food (you might also try a probiotic while mixing) until your dog is totally on the new food., 6. give it at least 1 month, maybe longer to see how your dog does on the new food.

It may take a few trys to find a food YOUR dog does well on, or you might find the "one" food on the first try, but always remember to go slow in transitioning. IMHO, there is no one "best" food! It all depends on how your dog does on the food. I have 4 dogs and will admit to trying quite a few different brands of dog food over the years...it doesn't help/hurt that I work in a pet store lol. Anyway, my dogs are currently eating Nature's Variety Instinct and NV raw medallions. Some of the foods I have used in the past and like for MY dogs are Orijen/Acana, FROMM 4-star, Eagle Pack Holistic Select, Merrick, Natural Balance, Wellness CORE, Solid Gold. As you can see, by my list, I prefer the super premium foods for my dogs. However, they did not do well on EVO, or regular Wellness, or Blue Buffalo. Personally, for me, my choices of foods will always be from the super premium types, but if my dogs absolutely could not handle these, then I would probably use Eukanuba or Pro Plan. Good luck in your search and just remember that what food YOU choose for YOUR dogs is YOUR personal choice.

All very good advice.Couldn't have said it better myself...literally

[Ayanla]

Originally Posted by Labsnothers

Well, http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-com...ins%20in--.pdf While true the presenter was from ADM, the academics would have shredded him if it was a bunch of marketing hype.

There is also the common sense matter of all the fine, healthy dogs eating foods with varying levels of corn.

The ball is really in your court. You are attacking conventional practice that seems to be working sell.

No, I am not affiliated with any food company, distributor, ingredient supplier, etc. On the other hand, I have actually seen pro premium food posts listing a website where you can buy the food. Astro turf is quite common on the web. I would love to know where the funding really comes from for many of the sites pushing premium food, homemade, and raw. And what about all the ads? somebody is making good money on all that.

Again, www.ddgs.umn.edu is the University of Minnesota Distillers Grains By-products Web Site and that article is written by someone with a heavily vested interest in the use of grain and grain derivatives. That article is not even in the ballpark of unbiased.

I don't think anyone has said Science Diet is a poisonous food that will kill your dog. People are just maintaining that it is not the best out there.

The vast majority of the time, when someone asks for recommendations, they are given information regarding different qualities and ingredients and encouraged to make the decision for themselves. It's only when someone chimes in with "Feed XYZ grocery brand full of grain and fillers" that people feel compelled to refute those posts.

It would be akin to being on a parenting board and seeing a thread "What should I feed my 5 year old for dinner?" and having someone post "Just feed them a happy meal." Sure, it's dinner. It'll work. It won't kill them. Millions of children eat happy meals and are healthy. But if you let a post like that stand unrefuted, people will get the idea that a happy meal is the recommended dinner for a five year old. That there's nothing better, that no one is disputing this recommendation. That would be a failure on the part of people who know better.

[canteloupe]

Great post, Ayanla.

[Kina_A]

Thank you Ayanla. That was an awesome post!!