[shortstack]

Hmm that looks yummy.. Interesting how everyones dogs react differently to different things....

As for the "bone day" questions.. Mine don't get bone with pork, and if i feed beef heart that wont get bone in that... so technically they will be non bone days..
the misc day, fish day, chicken day and some beef days will all have bone.. so I do feed bone almost every day. when I try to add more meat to the meal i add gizzards or split breasts (however this still have bones) or drumsticks with the meat cut off the bone (need to get more of this)..

Careful of some gizzards thought, as i learned yesterday a gizzard combo is just that a combo, and my boys had smelly farts and runny poop (the combo was organ meat! yay! hah) .. It has passed after a non organ feeding..

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by shortstack

As for the "bone day" questions.. Mine don't get bone with pork, and if i feed beef heart that wont get bone in that... so technically they will be non bone days..
the misc day, fish day, chicken day and some beef days will all have bone.. so I do feed bone almost every day. when I try to add more meat to the meal i add gizzards or split breasts (however this still have bones) or drumsticks with the meat cut off the bone (need to get more of this)..

Careful of some gizzards thought, as i learned yesterday a gizzard combo is just that a combo, and my boys had smelly farts and runny poop (the combo was organ meat! yay! hah) .. It has passed after a non organ feeding..

I've never priced drumsticks. But I also suggest turkey legs. There is a lot more meat on them and I can get them for a little over a dollor a pound. But maybe thats more expensive than the drumsticks.

What type of organ meat was part of the gizzard combo? Just curious, I've never seen those.

[shortstack]

my drumsticks are .98 per lb and my store rarely has turkey.. but if and when i see turkey drumsticks you can bet i will buy them!
It was everything-well almost everything: heart, liver, lungs, gibblets, neck..

[boon4376]

Do you need to cook potatoes for dogs? It doesn't seem like they'd need cooking... I mean no wild animal eats a cooked potato right?

Originally Posted by shortstack

my drumsticks are .98 per lb and my store rarely has turkey.. but if and when i see turkey drumsticks you can bet i will buy them!
It was everything-well almost everything: heart, liver, lungs, gibblets, neck..

And if i dont cook it, the dog can have the bones too right? or are chicken bones out no matter what?

1 more question.... I bought 4lbs of pork ribs today at $1.20 per pound... These bones are ok for dogs correct?

[ioreks_mom]

in order for a vegetable to be either bit digestible for a dog it will need to be cooked. a potato is not digestible as it is. you will need to either pulverize it or boil it.

chicken bones are fine as long as they are NOT cooked. you should NEVER feed any cooked bones.

[boon4376]

Ok so i've done my first raw meal...

1 pork rib
1 red potato microwaved until well cooked
1 tbsp olive oil

I've looked on http://www.nutritiondata.com/ to make sure it was well balanced, and it is for the most part, but its missing vitamin d..

What are peoples thoughts on breaking up a multivitamin, centrum equivalent into a very small, 1/8th piece and adding it to the food for supplement?

[ioreks_mom]

generally people start with chicken when they start raw feeding. also, why would you add a potato?

raw feeders don't usually balance every single meal, usually they balance the vits and nutrients over a few days or a week or even more. i try to balance over a week.

have you done all the research you can? did you read all the stickies?

[FourIsCompany]

Originally Posted by boon4376

I've looked on http://www.nutritiondata.com/

That is for people. People are omnivores. Dogs are carnivores. I think you might want to do some more research before you start feeding raw. Dogs have very different needs than people.

And I wouldn't give a people vitamin to your dog unless you have researched the ingredients and know they are vitamins he needs.

[boon4376]

Originally Posted by FourIsCompany

That is for people. People are omnivores. Dogs are carnivores. I think you might want to do some more research before you start feeding raw. Dogs have very different needs than people.

Yes i know that, but it still tells me how many grams & micrograms of vitamins and minerals are inside a certain serving size, which i can then compare to what a dog would need

Originally Posted by ioreks_mom

generally people start with chicken when they start raw feeding. also, why would you add a potato?
raw feeders don't usually balance every single meal, usually they balance the vits and nutrients over a few days or a week or even more. i try to balance over a week.

have you done all the research you can? did you read all the stickies?

I've done quite a bit, I wasn't sure if 100% of the calories he was supposed to get were from meat or what becuase most of what i read for recipes are just meat, liver, etc. but the nutritional value of a potato filled in a lot of vitamins completely missing from the meat... Im reading a lot of recipes and articles about feeding raw, but no one has any nutritional analysis of what a dog needs, what foods fulfill these needs... Its like everyone is guessing and building on the same guess. Another thing that bothers me is that i cant find any educational background about the authors from any of the articles i've read... Someone with a degree in biology, a specialization in animal nutrition, etc would be nice.

I'm trying to replicate the nutritional equivalent of my dogs high end kibble food designed for large breed puppies, but so that i KNOW my ingredients are of good quality, Im doing research on the nutritional content / caloric content / inflammatory rating / glycemic load of all of the ingredients to develop something complete and extremely healthy... (and i will admit my first raw meal doesnt suffice my goal, but im really still learning)

For now I will probably just keep supplementing his kibble with some raw meat so i can feel better about whether or not the protein is digestible, that's my main problem with dog foods.

[ioreks_mom]

i think feeding a puppy raw, especially a large breed puppy, is way more difficult than feeding an adult dog raw. i am still not completely decided if i will feed a puppy raw if i ever end up with one.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by ioreks_mom

i think feeding a puppy raw, especially a large breed puppy, is way more difficult than feeding an adult dog raw. i am still not completely decided if i will feed a puppy raw if i ever end up with one.

I have to agree.

Originally Posted by boon4376

Im doing research on the nutritional content / caloric content / inflammatory rating / glycemic load of all of the ingredients to develop something complete and extremely healthy... (and i will admit my first raw meal doesnt suffice my goal, but im really still learning)

I can tell you are really worried about all of these details. But in the end nature works most of that stuff out. If you look at the nutrional values in organ meat, it makes up for what is lacking in the usually meat. And if you are still worried, feel free to add some cooked or blended vegatables for extra nutriotion. I would avoind starches unless your dog can't keep weight on. You can even give a little apple cider vineger for trace minerals. Give fish oil every day, and a 400 Vitamin E once or twice a week and you should be good to go. The dog will take what it needs and pee out what is doesn't.

I am however wondering what sort of research you have done into calciumhosphorous ratios. That has to be VERY balanced for a large breed puppy. If it isn't the dog could get joint problems, or even hip dysplasia. Puppies aren't able to regulate these levels as well as a full grown adult dog. This is not something to take a chance with.

If you really want the dog to have more meat have you considered switching to a grainless dog food. Orijin has a large breed grainless formula that is supposed to be very good. Go! and Horizan also have puppy forumulas but I don't think they are large breed. Look and see how high their calcium percentage is. I wouldn't want to feed my puppy more than 1.5%.

[zeusNzoe]

Originally Posted by myminpins

We obtain our meat from Totally Raw Dog Food locally.

WOW!!! Someone local. I to get my food from him. I love the pre-made patties. My pits love the tripe and mackeral ones but man do they stink! I won't buy the tripe ones anymore as they smell too bad and stick up the whole house. Anyway just thought it was cool to see someone from my neck of the woods.

Our dogs diet changes alot. They get a ton of variety. The only things I am consistent with is chicken backs, organs and lamb ribs. I change up the food as much as I can, just for a good variety.

[andreangil]

Went shopping! I have a 6 pound, 12 week old bichon puppy.

I bought chicken necks, chicken thigh fillets, chicken liver, chicken heart, chicken gizzards, cubed beef, beef shank w/bone, and lamb chops.

Over a day, I've been feeding one chicken neck (bone), with either a thigh or beef or lamb (muscle meat) two or three times daily (depending on schedules) and on one of those meals, he gets chicken heart, gizzard and liver. He usually only eats the heart. He loves lamb--he gets lamb twice a week, its too expensive otherwise. So far I've given him the marrow bone once and he loved it, I didn't notice any upset of his stomach, so I will continue to give him the marrow once a week or so. I use cubed beef as a short training session, and Im thinking about using his muscle meat as a training session also. In August, I plan on adding canned salmon, pork, and bison.

What can I do to improve?

[briteday]

Originally Posted by boon4376

I've done quite a bit, I wasn't sure if 100% of the calories he was supposed to get were from meat or what becuase most of what i read for recipes are just meat, liver, etc. but the nutritional value of a potato filled in a lot of vitamins completely missing from the meat... Im reading a lot of recipes and articles about feeding raw, but no one has any nutritional analysis of what a dog needs, what foods fulfill these needs... Its like everyone is guessing and building on the same guess. Another thing that bothers me is that i cant find any educational background about the authors from any of the articles i've read... Someone with a degree in biology, a specialization in animal nutrition, etc would be nice.

I'm trying to replicate the nutritional equivalent of my dogs high end kibble food designed for large breed puppies, but so that i KNOW my ingredients are of good quality, Im doing research on the nutritional content / caloric content / inflammatory rating / glycemic load of all of the ingredients to develop something complete and extremely healthy... (and i will admit my first raw meal doesnt suffice my goal, but im really still learning)

For now I will probably just keep supplementing his kibble with some raw meat so i can feel better about whether or not the protein is digestible, that's my main problem with dog foods.

Replicating large puppy formulas would be quite a task even for those of us who have fed raw for a while. I would try to find a mentor (breeder of large breeds who feeds raw) or go back to a high quality kibble. A bad raw diet is far worse the a good kibble.

Following recipes that are only meat, liver, etc is dangerous. Dogs need to balance phosphorus with calcium. You need to do more research, way more research. There is a sticky at the top of the food forum that lists tons of good websites.

I have never found any animal nutritionist who published their work. Good luck. The best you will usually find is a person who is a vet.

Supplementing kibble with raw may lead to its own troubles. Kibble digests at a different rate in the intestines than raw food. Many dogs will get gi disturbance (vomiting / diarrhea) if they eat kibble and raw within 12 hours (approx) of the other. Some dogs do fine, others do not.

Originally Posted by andreangil

Went shopping! I have a 6 pound, 12 week old bichon puppy.

I bought chicken necks, chicken thigh fillets, chicken liver, chicken heart, chicken gizzards, cubed beef, beef shank w/bone, and lamb chops.

Over a day, I've been feeding one chicken neck (bone), with either a thigh or beef or lamb (muscle meat) two or three times daily (depending on schedules) and on one of those meals, he gets chicken heart, gizzard and liver. He usually only eats the heart. He loves lamb--he gets lamb twice a week, its too expensive otherwise. So far I've given him the marrow bone once and he loved it, I didn't notice any upset of his stomach, so I will continue to give him the marrow once a week or so. I use cubed beef as a short training session, and Im thinking about using his muscle meat as a training session also. In August, I plan on adding canned salmon, pork, and bison.

What can I do to improve?

You too, need to do far more research about a raw diet, IMO.

Check to see how much your dog should be eating on a daily basis and divide it into three meals. Use a scale to get the weight of the meal correct for such a small dog. You are feeding quite a bit of food on a daily basis. Also, if your dog is not eating liver you are risking vitamin A & D deficiencies. Gizzards also provide trace minerals and vitamins. You also have quite a few items that your dog cannot eat the bone (due to size) so you need to be balancing the calcium and phosphorus somehow in those meals. Marrow bone is not all that great. It is very rich and fatty without much meat. It should not be a meal, but instead, a recreational treat. Be sure as you add various species to only introduce one new one per week. Otherwise if your dog gets sick you will have no way to narrow it down to the source.

I would also suggest that you spend some time with the sticky at the top of the food forum reading trusted raw feeding websites.

[andreangil]

Briteday, thanks for posting

I will be getting a food scale soon! I have a couple more questions though..

I figure at 6 pounds (and growing), my puppy needs nearly 10 oz of meat daily--or is that too much? Assuming, 10 oz is the correct amount of food, I need one oz of bone, one oz of organ, and eight oz of meat daily. I remember reading chicken necks are half bone and half meat, so I can feed 2 oz of necks, and 7 oz of meat and one oz of organ, and that will give me the prey model. Is that right?

If I cook the liver will he still get all the vitamin a and d?

There is a lot of muscle, bone and organ ratio information, but what about fat to lean meat ratios? I know a little fat is ok for dogs, but I keep wanting to trim it all off because that's what I do when I eat. I'm worried that he's not getting enough fat.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by andreangil

I figure at 6 pounds (and growing), my puppy needs nearly 10 oz of meat daily--or is that too much? Assuming, 10 oz is the correct amount of food, I need one oz of bone, one oz of organ, and eight oz of meat daily. I remember reading chicken necks are half bone and half meat, so I can feed 2 oz of necks, and 7 oz of meat and one oz of organ, and that will give me the prey model. Is that right?

I'm sure Britaday will elaborate more on this since she has small dogs. But 10 ounces is WAY too much for a 6 lb dog to consume. They rule of thumb is to feed between 2% to 3% of the animals weight a day.
For your dog that would be between 1.92 ounces and 2.88 ounces. I have read that small dogs will need a little more than 3% due to their higher metabolism. So I would suggest around 4 ounces a day off hand and then adjust up or down as needed. Britiday may or may not agree with that.

Originally Posted by andreangil

If I cook the liver will he still get all the vitamin a and d?.

Yes they will still get the nutrients as long as it's not over cooked. You can also feed it frozen. I have even heard of people blending a mix of different organs together and freezing them in a ice cube tray. I believe each cube will weigh around an ounce, so that might be too much organ meat for you just starting out. You could mix it with some ground chicken and then freeze it. Then you could up the organ percentage every time you make a new batch until its not so hard on her stomach.

[ioreks_mom]

Originally Posted by DobManiac

I'm sure Britaday will elaborate more on this since she has small dogs. But 10 ounces is WAY too much for a 6 lb dog to consume. They rule of thumb is to feed between 2% to 3% of the animals weight a day.
For your dog that would be between 1.92 ounces and 2.88 ounces. I have read that small dogs will need a little more than 3% due to their higher metabolism. So I would suggest around 4 ounces a day off hand and then adjust up or down as needed. Britiday may or may not agree with that.

i think that as a puppy the percentage is much higher, or you can feed 2-3% of their ideal adult weight.

i am WAY to nervous to feed a puppy raw, it is way more important to balance it perfectly while the puppy is growing.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by ioreks_mom

i think that as a puppy the percentage is much higher, or you can feed 2-3% of their ideal adult weight.

i am WAY to nervous to feed a puppy raw, it is way more important to balance it perfectly while the puppy is growing.

I didn't even notice it was a puppy. You’re correct the percentage goes up. It is possible to feed puppies raw. Litters have even been weaned onto raw diets. But it is a lot riskier than puppy food and not something I would ever suggest to a first time raw feeder. Or even to a raw feeder like me that only has a basic understanding of how to keep everything balanced. With an adult most of my little calculation errors work themselves out. That won't happen with a puppy.

[ioreks_mom]

Originally Posted by DobManiac

I didn't even notice it was a puppy. You’re correct the percentage goes up. It is possible to feed puppies raw. Litters have even been weaned onto raw diets. But it is a lot riskier than puppy food and not something I would ever suggest to a first time raw feeder. Or even to a raw feeder like me that only has a basic understanding of how to keep everything balanced. With an adult most of my little calculation errors work themselves out. That won't happen with a puppy.

that is exactly what i think. with an adult it is ok for me to balance the diet out over a longer period of time. with a puppy, he is growing and needs the right nutrients all the time and i really don't want to mess with that!! we are getting a puppy soon () and i am planning to feed good quality kibble until he is about a year old. i don't want to mess anything up!

[briteday]

I've never fed a puppy a raw diet, so probably not the "expert" answer. I would go with 2-4% of the expected adult weight. Ask the breeder what the parents weigh.

As far as meat to bone, and what cuts have enough...you don't have to play it that close. What I think is lacking in some diets is that people are too anxious to have variety within the first week...and I feel that sticking to chicken only for the first month gives the gut a better chance to develop the proper digestive enzymes necessary to process raw. Even if the dog doesn't have gi distress I'm not sure that they're able to absorb nutrients properly especially if you are feeding multiple species right away.

On that same note, during that first month or two on chicken, the variety needs to be feeding the entire animal over time. I believe that white meat, dark meat, internal fat, fat in the skin, different types of body bones all have something to offer. In my research I have found many raw feeding advocates mention that a whole chicken is just about as close to perfect a prey model diet (from the nutritional balance sense) as you can get. So just feeding necks or backs doesn't make sense to me. And a dog must learn to accept organs as part of the diet. I think it's more important to work within the chicken species for the first month and get those things ironed out. My little dogs get whole cut up chicken parts and a variety of organs every day. The other meal of the day is different species of meat (usually boneless since larger livestock don't have many bones that a 10 pound dog can handle!!! but I balance out the calcium by supplementation)...once they had all been on raw for a few months. I think it took us almost 2 months to get all three dogs straightened away on all parts of the chicken (and I haven't found a chicken part yet that they have trouble with, just get a good pair of kitchen scissors to cut up the chicken) before we added even one more species. And add species no more than one new one each week. I take longer to add each species so that I can also try that species organ meat as well and see if there are any problems. So I only introduce a new species (after chicken) every 2-3 weeks in the beginning. But even so, I still keep one meal of the day as chicken and chicken organs.

For my small dogs I weigh each meal. I'm pretty good now at knowing what a cut up chicken portion looks like for each one of them, but I still weigh as small dogs can get overweight in a few weeks. And if it is a little over or under the amount I make a mental note and adjust the boneless meat meal of the day to make up for the amount. I also weigh and record my dogs' and cat's (raw fed, elderly) weight once per month.

There are a lot of owners recently on this forum who are starting to feed raw diets to their dogs. And I just want people to remember that a bad raw diet is far worse than a decent kibble. So your research, take the time BEFORE you start feeding the dog raw food, know what you are doing, ask lots of questions BEFORE you start feeding raw, look at the websites listed, get some books from the library, talk to raw feeders, join Yahoo groups of raw feeders, find your stable resources for food, get a freezer if necessary...don't jump into raw feeding because it seems like the right thing to do. I spent 6 months researching, finding resources / pricing, figuring out storage before the dogs even saw their first raw meal. But then I'm a research biochemist so I understand the chemical and nutritional data and how to put it together. The websites at the top of the food forum are the most informative and easy to understand for everyone. Just read, read, read...everything you can find. Then as Winnie the Pooh would say, "Think, think think!"