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Old 02-17-2007, 01:25 PM   #1
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Question Lab Question

J.C. a 11 month old, 70 lb lab
Jimmy a 5 month old, 60 lb lab




Recently J.C. and Jimmy have had a little bit of runny stools from their kibble

Nutro Ultra Large Breed Puppy. http://www.ultraholistic.com/lbpup.shtml


Jimmy originally was on Iam's Smart Puppy Large Breed and I decided to switch him to J.C.'s after having the same runny stools that he is having now. To my knowledge, Jimmy and J.C., are not allergic to anything. They're very few things that they will not eat. I've been thinking about switching there kibble to
Natural Balance Kibble:
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog...as/UltDog.html

Is that a good kibble to switch them to? . Do you have a guess on what is causing this problem?
Should I switch there food? I would also love to know more about any other kibble that might suit them well.
Thanks,
Chanel01

Last edited by Chanel01; 02-17-2007 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:17 PM   #2
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How to grade your dog's food:
Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source,subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewerâ?Ts rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 morepoints

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil,subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isnâ?Tt allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isnâ?Tt allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or
nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than
the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D

69 = F

Here are some foods that have already been scored.

Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+

Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F

Canidae / Score 112 A+

Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+

Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F

Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B

Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A

**** Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+

**** Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+

Foundations / Score 106 A+

Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 D

Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D

Innova Dog / Score 114 A+

Innova Evo / Score 114 A+

Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+

Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B

Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B

Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F

ProPlan Natural Turkey & Barley / Score 103 A+

Purina Benful / Score 17 F

Purina Dog / Score 62 F

Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F

Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A+

Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+

Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A

Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F

Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F

Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+

Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A


FYI: Your second link doesn't work.

Personally, I would go with what your dogs do best on. Some people's dogs have loose stool on anything BUT Purina, others thrive on Canidae or Wellness. But that's a general score card to get you started.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:40 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanel01 View Post
J.C. a 11 month old, 70 lb lab
Jimmy a 5 month old, 60 lb lab




Recently J.C. and Jimmy have had a little bit of runny stools from their kibble

Nutro Ultra Large Breed Puppy. http://www.ultraholistic.com/lbpup.shtml


Jimmy originally was on Iam's Smart Puppy Large Breed and I decided to switch him to J.C.'s after having the same runny stools that he is having now. To my knowledge, Jimmy and J.C., are not allergic to anything. They're very few things that they will not eat. I've been thinking about switching there kibble to
Natural Balance Kibble:
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog...as/UltDog.html

Is that a good kibble to switch them to? . Do you have a guess on what is causing this problem?
Should I switch there food? I would also love to know more about any other kibble that might suit them well.
Thanks,
Chanel01
Beautiful Dogs.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassie Nova View Post
How to grade your dog's food:
Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source,subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewerâ?Ts rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 morepoints

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil,subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isnâ?Tt allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isnâ?Tt allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or
nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than
the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D

69 = F

Here are some foods that have already been scored.

Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+

Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F

Canidae / Score 112 A+

Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+

Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F

Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B

Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A

**** Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+

**** Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+

Foundations / Score 106 A+

Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 D

Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D

Innova Dog / Score 114 A+

Innova Evo / Score 114 A+

Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+

Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B

Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B

Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F

ProPlan Natural Turkey & Barley / Score 103 A+

Purina Benful / Score 17 F

Purina Dog / Score 62 F

Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F

Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A+

Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+

Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A

Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F

Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F

Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+

Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A


FYI: Your second link doesn't work.

Personally, I would go with what your dogs do best on. Some people's dogs have loose stool on anything BUT Purina, others thrive on Canidae or Wellness. But that's a general score card to get you started.
An excellent Post, well worth keeping.....

Last edited by Captbob; 02-18-2007 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:37 AM   #4
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You might want to get a grainless kibble. I think that is where dog food diet is going. I am using orijen from Canada. You can look it up. Very high quality with great rating. I also use wysong canned meat. They really like it. I am also considering some raw food. If you do both as I understand it, you need to feed at least 6 hours apart as it is digested differently.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tully View Post
You might want to get a grainless kibble. I think that is where dog food diet is going. I am using orijen from Canada. You can look it up. Very high quality with great rating. I also use wysong canned meat. They really like it. I am also considering some raw food. If you do both as I understand it, you need to feed at least 6 hours apart as it is digested differently.
Yes, if you feed raw and kibble, you should wait 6 hours, but you shouldn't be feeding raw AND kibble to begin with.

Also, if you feed anything that's not dry, you're going to need to care for their teeth more by giving them Nylabones or something hard to chew on and keep their teeth clean.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:54 AM   #6
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Fantastic post Cassie, thank you
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:15 PM   #7
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Question

That is not what I have been told. Please explain in more detail if this is your area of expertise? Also, I have not decided to do raw yet. The jury is still out.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:36 PM   #8
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Me? Well, I can try to explain....mainly, I just know it's not good. Raw should go with raw and kibble with kibble. Likes go together.

There must be some reason, though! Someone care to explain?
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:42 PM   #9
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Smile

I was told you can mix and match but it must be given 6 hours apart. I used to work at a holistic dog food store and that was the information at the time Maybe it has changed?
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:20 PM   #10
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Natural Balance is a good kibble. The other kibble might be to rich for you two labs.

With the kibble and raw deal. It isn't wise to feed these two at the same time because it will take longer for the food to digest in the stomach and in return your dog can run the risk of illness from bacteria. If you want to feed kibble and raw you can feed raw in the morning and feed kibble at dinner time or vice versa. It doesn't take long for the stomach to digest raw like it does kibble. Dogs have short digestive tract then humans do.
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4gsds View Post
If you want to feed kibble and raw you can feed raw in the morning and feed kibble at dinner time or vice versa.
That's not a good idea. Doing that is like switching your dog's kibble for every meal.
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Old 02-18-2007, 04:59 PM   #12
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I've been feeding raw for over twenty some years now. My family has been feeding raw a lot longer. Most people that I know that feed raw also feeds kibble (like holistic dog kibble).

This is from njboxers website http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#kibble
Can I feed kibble AND BARF?

Yes you can, but seriously, why? OK, I know change can be difficult, so please allow me to explain. Kibble and raw food are digested differently, and should NEVER be fed together, in the same meal. If you feed dry kibble at the same meal as the raw meat, you are increasing the amount of time the food is in the body, and increasing the possibility of illness from microbes. So, if you want to feed half & half, feed kibble one meal, raw the next. Your dog will probably be the one who will let you know, before you do, that BARF is IN and kibble is OUT! :>) But, if you really feel the need to feed kibble (alone or in addition to BARF) or just haven't made up your mind to switch completely to BARF, you may seriously consider a super premium all natural, holistic dog and/or cat food, such as Life's Abundance, which contains all natural and human-grade ingredients, including digestive enzymes/probiotics and grape seed extract (antioxidant)....and NO Corn, No Wheat and No Dairy, formulated by Dr. Jane Bicks, nationally recognized holistic veterinarian.
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Old 02-18-2007, 06:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4gsds View Post
Natural Balance is a good kibble. The other kibble might be to rich for you two labs.

With the kibble and raw deal. It isn't wise to feed these two at the same time because it will take longer for the food to digest in the stomach and in return your dog can run the risk of illness from bacteria. If you want to feed kibble and raw you can feed raw in the morning and feed kibble at dinner time or vice versa. It doesn't take long for the stomach to digest raw like it does kibble. Dogs have short digestive tract then humans do.
I have been feeding my dog several flavors of Natural Balance Kibble and she is doing wonderfully on it. She never gets an upset stomach, stool problems, and she loves the food. Her coat shines, and she is very energetic. I am sold on NB and I am glad to see that it ranks very high on the chart on this thread on post #2 .
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4gsds View Post
I've been feeding raw for over twenty some years now. My family has been feeding raw a lot longer. Most people that I know that feed raw also feeds kibble (like holistic dog kibble).

This is from njboxers website http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#kibble
Can I feed kibble AND BARF?

Yes you can, but seriously, why? OK, I know change can be difficult, so please allow me to explain. Kibble and raw food are digested differently, and should NEVER be fed together, in the same meal. If you feed dry kibble at the same meal as the raw meat, you are increasing the amount of time the food is in the body, and increasing the possibility of illness from microbes. So, if you want to feed half & half, feed kibble one meal, raw the next. Your dog will probably be the one who will let you know, before you do, that BARF is IN and kibble is OUT! :>) But, if you really feel the need to feed kibble (alone or in addition to BARF) or just haven't made up your mind to switch completely to BARF, you may seriously consider a super premium all natural, holistic dog and/or cat food, such as Life's Abundance, which contains all natural and human-grade ingredients, including digestive enzymes/probiotics and grape seed extract (antioxidant)....and NO Corn, No Wheat and No Dairy, formulated by Dr. Jane Bicks, nationally recognized holistic veterinarian.
Thanks! That clears it up for me. Just so anyone else knows: RAW and BARF are two different diets, but it makes sense that neither one would benefit from kibble for the same reasons.
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:40 PM   #15
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Is that some type of wise crack? I hope it wasn't. Because I haven't said one thing that has a wise crack in it. And what makes you think that Raw & BARF are two different diets? The word BARF came from Dr. Ian Billinghurst.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst, an Australian veterinarian was the first to bring the concept of evolutionary, raw feeding to American public awareness. The buzzword for feeding raw in the early days was BARF, an acronym, which stands for Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods or Bones And Raw Foods. Dr. Billinghurst adopted the term as his trademark, so the term is no longer all encompassing and most people now just refer to the method as "raw feeding." You will hear different terms as people try to distinguish between feeding philosphies, but in the end, we are all trying to feed our carnivorous pets as Mother Nature intended.

This is from raw learning website
http://www.rawlearning.com/responsetopeck.html
Actually most people who began a raw diet, simply know it as "raw diet". "Barf" was a term most people undestood to mean "bones and raw food". Unfortunately the term was hijacked and came to be associated with the myth that dogs are omnivores. Dogs are carnivores. Additionally, since the term was trademarked and commercialised, most people now refer to a raw diet, simply as "raw diet".

http://www.auntjeni.com/barf.htm
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4gsds View Post
Is that some type of wise crack? I hope it wasn't. Because I haven't said one thing that has a wise crack in it. And what makes you think that Raw & BARF are two different diets? The word BARF came from Dr. Ian Billinghurst.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst, an Australian veterinarian was the first to bring the concept of evolutionary, raw feeding to American public awareness. The buzzword for feeding raw in the early days was BARF, an acronym, which stands for Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods or Bones And Raw Foods. Dr. Billinghurst adopted the term as his trademark, so the term is no longer all encompassing and most people now just refer to the method as "raw feeding." You will hear different terms as people try to distinguish between feeding philosphies, but in the end, we are all trying to feed our carnivorous pets as Mother Nature intended.

This is from raw learning website
http://www.rawlearning.com/responsetopeck.html
Actually most people who began a raw diet, simply know it as "raw diet". "Barf" was a term most people undestood to mean "bones and raw food". Unfortunately the term was hijacked and came to be associated with the myth that dogs are omnivores. Dogs are carnivores. Additionally, since the term was trademarked and commercialised, most people now refer to a raw diet, simply as "raw diet".

http://www.auntjeni.com/barf.htm
I wasn't trying to be a smart-alec. I was making sure it was clear. Yeah, BARF and RAW are both forms of raw feeding. When you get specific, they are different. Dr. Billinghurst has his own diet, which he calls BARF. The rest of it is just plain old RAW!
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:04 AM   #17
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Just want to thank you for your kind posting. I have been researching good food for my Becky, but didn't seem to get nowhere. This is definitely decision maker.
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Old 02-19-2007, 02:24 PM   #18
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If I can help. Dogs and cats have a very acidic PH (stomach acid) which can handle the brak down of RAW foods and their bacteria. Humans have a neutral PH (stomach acid) which cause foor to remain in our digestive system longer, thus causing bacteria to thrive if we ate RAW meat.

When you give a dog 'kibble' it neutralizes the PH, which slows down their digestion. If you were to mix kibble and raw, you would be putting your dog at high risk of e.coli and salmonella, and other such BAD bacteria.

If you feed one type of food you should not feed the other. There really is no reason to.
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