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Old 07-31-2008, 09:42 PM   #1
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Is it that simple?

Starting to raw feed, I mean. I seen another post on here with another newbie raw feeder (4dogs3cats!), and can I just go to a store and buy a bag of those chicken pieces to get them started? I can buy them at Wal-Mart, which is only about 15 minutes away.

This seems much easier and convenient than tracking down chicken backs and other strange pieces (I live out in the boonies anyway). I've tried it already, and it's quite a drive to the nearest butcher anyway.

How long should I be feeding them those? 2 meals a day as well?

Getting kind of tired of Ringo's farts since the new Canidae formula. It's ridiculous.
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:19 PM   #2
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Re: Is it that simple?

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Originally Posted by InverseLogic View Post
can I just go to a store and buy a bag of those chicken pieces to get them started? I can buy them at Wal-Mart, which is only about 15 minutes away.
Yes, You can get chicken leg quarters at Walmart in 10lb bags for about .50/lb. They will be fine to start with.

Quote:
How long should I be feeding them those? 2 meals a day as well?
About 2 weeks. Yes 2 meals a day. I don't remember how big your dogs are. One chicken quarter a meal may do fine or you might want to cut them in half depending on the size of the dogs.
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:25 PM   #3
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Re: Is it that simple?

Atlas is about 20lbs (getting weighed on Saturday). Ringo is about 50-55 (also getting weighed on Saturday.)
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:28 PM   #4
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Re: Is it that simple?

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Originally Posted by InverseLogic View Post
Atlas is about 20lbs (getting weighed on Saturday). Ringo is about 50-55 (also getting weighed on Saturday.)
Cut the quarters in half for Atlas. They are easiest to cut at the joint between drumstick and thigh. Twist the drumstick around a little to determine exactly where that is.
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:29 AM   #5
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Re: Is it that simple?

You'll have to watch out on the chicken from Walmart. A lot of it contains chicken broth and other additives. Read the package fine print. Some dogs have problems with that. I get my chicken from HEB. They carry some chicken with the additives but also some that doesn't. I don't know if you have an HEB where you are but the one here has been having chicken quarter 10lb bags for $5.50. A great deal. They also have beef kidneys for .69lb and pork for $1.12lb. I get chicken feet from HEB too and my dogs absolutely love those for their 'cookies'.
The amount to feed is usually about 2-3% of the ideal adult body weight. It doesn't have to be an exact science. Just keep an eye on your dogs weight. If he/she is geeting too chunky then cut back a little. If getting too thin just add a bit more.
If you need more info here's a link for a group on raw feeding;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

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and the pound puppy crew.
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:37 AM   #6
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Re: Is it that simple?

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You'll have to watch out on the chicken from Walmart. A lot of it contains chicken broth and other additives. Read the package fine print. Some dogs have problems with that. I get my chicken from HEB. They carry some chicken with the additives but also some that doesn't. I don't know if you have an HEB where you are but the one here has been having chicken quarter 10lb bags for $5.50. A great deal. They also have beef kidneys for .69lb and pork for $1.12lb. I get chicken feet from HEB too and my dogs absolutely love those for their 'cookies'.
The amount to feed is usually about 2-3% of the ideal adult body weight. It doesn't have to be an exact science. Just keep an eye on your dogs weight. If he/she is geeting too chunky then cut back a little. If getting too thin just add a bit more.
If you need more info here's a link for a group on raw feeding;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

Jihad
and the pound puppy crew.
The chicken from Wal-Mart is fine. Just because the store has a bad reputation for everything doesn't mean that things don't get blown out of proportion. I've shopped there for years, and I'm positive they have meats free of additives. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen chicken with broth and other things in it.

Also, all the other things you mentioned, Wal-Mart has them too. I don't even know what an HEB is, but it sure sounds a lot like Wal-Mart when it comes to meat products.

By the way, thanks for the link to the Yahoo! group. I'll make sure to join.
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:04 AM   #7
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Re: Is it that simple?

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You'll have to watch out on the chicken from Walmart. A lot of it contains chicken broth and other additives. Read the package fine print. Some dogs have problems with that.
The enhanced chicken from Walmart is just fine. I have known hundreds and hundreds of people who buy that chicken for their dogs and the I can count the ones that had problems on the fingers on one hand. It's just not a big deal. They put saline solution in them. Saline solution is the moisture that's in the body anyway. Blood is saline solution. You read that our bodies are 80% water? Chicken's bodies are 80% water also. That "water" is saline solution.
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:22 PM   #8
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Re: Is it that simple?

I have been a stay at home Mom now Grandma for 30 years. I am not getting a job. My feed bill runs over $700. a week. I have alot of animals. Tell your husband he is lucky he is not married to me. There is no my money and his money in this house. It is our money.

I put that in the wrong post didn't I? Sorry!

Last edited by CinnamintStick; 08-01-2008 at 01:06 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:36 PM   #9
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Re: Is it that simple?

I really want to end this saga of salt enhanced chicken. So if you are interested in this topic please read the entire post before making a decision on where you stand.

And I want to add that I have great respect for other raw feeders on the forum. I just want people to read the facts and then form their own opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawFedDogs View Post
The enhanced chicken from Walmart is just fine. I have known hundreds and hundreds of people who buy that chicken for their dogs and the I can count the ones that had problems on the fingers on one hand. It's just not a big deal. They put saline solution in them. Saline solution is the moisture that's in the body anyway. Blood is saline solution. You read that our bodies are 80% water? Chicken's bodies are 80% water also. That "water" is saline solution.
I'm a medical biochemist. Blood is <1% salt. If you are given a saline IV because you are dehydrated, "normal saline" (the bag they hang for the IV drip) is 0.9% saline.

Here is some info on daily requirements, deficiency, and toxicity for sodium in dogs (table salt is sodium chloride in proper proportions):

American College of Veterinary Nutrition states:

"Daily sodium and chloride requirements in dogs...

In general, the chloride requirement is 1.5 times the sodium requirement. This is because most of the sodium and chloride come from salt, and by weight, salt provides 1.5 times more chloride than sodium. Adult dog foods should contain at least 0.06% sodium and 0.09% chloride (on a dry matter basis). Puppy foods should contain 5 times that much. Kitten and cat foods should contain at least 0.2% sodium and 0.3% chloride (on a dry matter basis).

Sodium and chloride deficiency

A dietary deficiency of sodium and chloride would be extremely rare because most pets today are fed commercial pet foods. A sodium or chloride deficiency is more likely to occur because of an excess loss of these two minerals from the body. This can result from prolonged (or chronic) severe diarrhea and/or vomiting. This can be a very serious condition and animals with prolonged vomiting or diarrhea should be seen by a veterinarian.

Sodium and chloride toxicity

Sodium and chloride toxicity generally does not occur in normal animals with access to good quality drinking water. Any excess intake of sodium or chloride is filtered through the kidneys and excreted into the urine. If good drinking water is not provided, however, the concentrations of sodium and chloride can become too high. Signs of sodium chloride toxicity include seizures, blindness, dehydration, loss of appetite, and death within 24 hours."

Then, since I love documentation:

COMMITTEE ON NUTRIENT REQUIREMENTS OF DOGS AND CATS
DONALD C. BEITZ, Chair, Iowa State University
JOHN E. BAUER, Texas A&M University
KEITH C. BEHNKE, Kansas State University
DAVID A. DZANIS, Dzanis Consulting & Collaborations
GEORGE C. FAHEY, University Of Illinois
RICHARD C. HILL, University Of Florida
FRANCIS A. KALLFELZ, Cornell University
ELLEN KIENZLE, Zentrum Für Lebensmittel Und Tierernährung, Oberschleissheim, Germany
JAMES G. MORRIS, University Of California, Davis
QUINTON R. ROGERS, University Of California, Davis

(this is a varied group of individual who are nationally recognized at the university level)

100 mg of sodium per day for a 33 pound dog, daily

Just for perspective...15% enhanced salt in 4 oz of chicken is 180 milligrams of salt.

Now for humans...

UK Sodium RDA
The US sodium RDA of less than 2,400 mg is higher than the UK Recommended Nutritional Intake (RNI) whose upper limit for sodium is 1,600 mg.

Sodium RDA - Lower for Those with Blood Pressure
People with high blood pressure should consume less sodium as recent research has shown that people consuming diets of 1,500 mg of sodium had better blood pressure lowering benefits. These lower-sodium diets also can keep blood pressure from rising and help blood pressure medicines work better.

Sodium RDA - National Research Council
The National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences recommends an approximate daily range of 1,100 to 3,300 mg of sodium for adults.

Sodium RDA - American Heart Association
The American Heart Association recommends that for every 1,000 Calories of food consumed, the sodium intake should be 1,000 mg and should not exceed the 3,000 mg limit.

Sodium RDA vs. Average Intake
The average intake in the United States is between 4,000 and 5,000 mg of sodium per day.

No Specific Sodium RDA for Children
Specific recommendations regarding sodium intake do not exist for infants, children, and adolescents. However, since eating habits and attitudes about food formed during childhood are likely to influence eating habits for life, moderate intake of sodium is suggested.

Note: Sodium Deficiency
Sodium deficiency is not common but can occur during heavy/prolonged exercise, due to loss in sweat and in high temperatures. Signs of sodium deficiency include: cramps, weakness, fatigue, nausea and thirst.

Sources include:

US Dept of Health
National Institutes of Health
National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute




Lastly, take notice of the recommended daily intakes as stated above and then page down a bit to the " Sodium RDA vs. Average Intake."

Humans don't need "salt enhanced" products either.

And why would you spend 15% of the cost of meat on salt and water. This equates to ... for every pound (16 ounces) of chicken, by weight, 2.4 ounces is salt water. Or...if you are paying $0.50 per pound for that bag of enhanced chicken thighs you are paying 7.5 cents for salt water, per pound...that equates to 75 cents for a 10 pound bag...for salt water. I think that's a good tactic to rip off the unsuspecting consumer. I prefer to buy 16 ounces of meat per pound, not 13.6 ounces of meat per pound. I can make my own salt and water much cheaper, if I want it.

OK, I'll never stand on the enhanced chicken soapbox again. Done.
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:11 PM   #10
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Re: Is it that simple?

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Humans don't need "salt enhanced" products either.
It's not "salt enhanced" it's "saline solution enhanced". Big difference. I agre that humans including myself eat too much salt. However as was stated in your post, excess salt is fitered out of the body by the kidneys.

Quote:
And why would you spend 15% of the cost of meat on salt and water.
Stop and think about it. Meat is 80% water anyway. Why not just buy dehydreated meats all the time and solve that problem? Another thing I don't think you are thinking about ... as soon as an animal dies, it starts to dry out. Enhancements just replace some of that water lost in the drying out process. It makes the meat juicier, more tender and tastier.

Quote:
I prefer to buy 16 ounces of meat per pound, not 13.6 ounces of meat per pound. I can make my own salt and water much cheaper, if I want it.
So you'll just buy dehydrated meat from now on?

You can go on and on all you want about enhanced meats. It just doesn't harm people or dogs. It's basically more moist and possibly with a little more salt. "Enhance" means to improve.

Quote:
OK, I'll never stand on the enhanced chicken soapbox again. Done.
Hehe, sure you will.

The big problem I have with people talking about enhanced meats is that I am on a lot of lists with a lot of raw feeders. Almost everytime someone posts about thier dog having most any kind of physical problem, there will always be a post asking if they feed enhanced meat. They almost never do and if they do and stop, it doesn't effect the problem. We can debate forever about how healthy enhanced meat is ... my problem is that it doesn't cause a significent number of problems to bother concerning yourself with. I personally know maybe 2 or 3 dogs that MIGHT have problems with enhanced meats and I know A LOT of raw fed dogs. I have personally assisted maybe 200 dogs get switched from doom nuggets to raw.
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:23 PM   #11
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Re: Is it that simple?

Just curious, what are "doom nuggets"?
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:56 PM   #12
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Re: Is it that simple?

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I don't even know what an HEB is, but it sure sounds a lot like Wal-Mart when it comes to meat products.
HEB is a grocery store chain in the south...started in San Antonio, Texas. The full name is H.E. Butt (yep you read it correctly).
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:31 PM   #13
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Re: Is it that simple?

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Just curious, what are "doom nuggets"?
A descriptive word for kibble.
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:33 PM   #14
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Re: Is it that simple?

With all this info on enhanced chicken, ARE the chicken quarters (10 pounds for $4.50, big heavy plastic red and clear bag) from Wal-Mart really saline enhanced? I've never noticed......
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:50 AM   #15
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Re: Is it that simple?

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With all this info on enhanced chicken, ARE the chicken quarters (10 pounds for $4.50, big heavy plastic red and clear bag) from Wal-Mart really saline enhanced? I've never noticed......
Doubtful.

Also, they're $6.50 here Lucky.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:35 AM   #16
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Re: Is it that simple?

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With all this info on enhanced chicken, ARE the chicken quarters (10 pounds for $4.50, big heavy plastic red and clear bag) from Wal-Mart really saline enhanced? I've never noticed......
In some stores they are, in some they aren't and in some its sometimes yes, sometimes no. Read the writing on the bag and it will tell you. I don't pay any attention because I really don't care.
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Old 08-03-2008, 03:15 AM   #17
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Re: Is it that simple?

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With all this info on enhanced chicken, ARE the chicken quarters (10 pounds for $4.50, big heavy plastic red and clear bag) from Wal-Mart really saline enhanced? I've never noticed......
Thats what I picked up too. It does say something about chicken broth may be added, so I dont know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. Im going to go to the grocery store and see what they have, walmart didnt have too too much besdies the big red bag lol
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