Protein percentage question

ACampbell · 07-06-2008, 03:27 PM

Had a talk with my vet the other day, they said to switch Lily (who is 6 months old) off of puppy food onto adult and that she didn't need the extra protein.
So we have a fish-based protein, at 21% adult food. This is down from the 27% protein from the puppy food...
Am I going to have a problem if I do the switch? I trust my vet but they also sell Science Diet so....

Whats the general consensus?

BoxMeIn21 · 07-06-2008, 03:54 PM

Honestly, 27% isn't too high. Even some of the all life stages foods are around 24-26% - I might try and find one of those if it were me.

ACampbell · 07-06-2008, 05:02 PM

We're working with single protein for now until we can figure out what Smokey is having an allergy to.
We've tried several types of dog food, and Smokeys stomach is tender, Canidae, Wellness, and several others that gave him major diarrhea and stomach upsets...now that we've found something good for him I'd rather not switch, and it's not cheap so I'd rather feed them both the same food than have to buy 2 bags of expensive food a month - see what I'm getting at?

Dieselsmama · 07-06-2008, 07:01 PM

The Orijen fish I feed all 3 of mine (ages 5 1/2 mo., 1 yr and 4 yrs.) has 44% protein.

ACampbell · 07-06-2008, 08:18 PM

Yeah I can't find Orijen around here...but I did find a good food

that is more in my price-range...Orijen is expensive and I'd have to order it online...this I can buy locally from a company that also carries Canidae, Wellness, etc.

Is 21% too low for a puppy should have been my question. I don't want to stunt her and my vet is of the opinion that too much protein is definitely not good for liver and kidneys (whether or not they are right I'm not sure but I don't want to take the chance to ruin her internals)

Coly · 07-06-2008, 09:13 PM

Your Bull Mastiff.. being a giant breed should never have been on puppy food even to begin with.

.. you cannot stunt her growth, you want her to grow at a very slow rate to reduce stress on her joints and prevent problems in the future.

Having said that, I would never, under any circumstance recommend a high protein kibble to a growing giant breed. I would recommend Canidae's All Life Stages.. it's not too expensive, very cost effective.

Since she has a sensitive tummy, you can also try Natural Balance.. they have great foods with limited ingredients and single source proteins.. that way, if her upset stomach is allergy related, you know what the allergy is and can eliminate it completely by switching formulas. I highly recommend Natural Balance to growing giants.. it, like Canidae ALS is all life stages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACampbell

Yeah I can't find Orijen around here...but I did find a good food

that is more in my price-range...Orijen is expensive and I'd have to order it online...this I can buy locally from a company that also carries Canidae, Wellness, etc.

Is 21% too low for a puppy should have been my question. I don't want to stunt her and my vet is of the opinion that too much protein is definitely not good for liver and kidneys (whether or not they are right I'm not sure but I don't want to take the chance to ruin her internals)

RawFedDogs · 07-06-2008, 09:59 PM

Don't worry so much about exact amounts of anything in a diet. Diets are just not designed to be precise. Do you know how much protein is in your own diet? How much calcium? How much fat? If you don't know about your own diet and you are relatively healthy, why worry about exact amounts of anything in your dog's diet?

If you notice on the nutrition list on a bag of kibble, protein is listed as minimum values (ex. protein 22% min.). That means that the bag could contain 22% or 25% or 27% or even 30% protein. The amounts of all the nutrients vary greatly from one bag to another. Thats the reason for the min and max numbers of nutrients.

The source of proteins are MUCH more important than the percentage. A good amount of protein in dog food is plant based which makes it very inferior and less bioavailable to the dog than animal based. The cheaper the food, the higher percentage of plant based vs. animal based proteins it contains. You can get somewhat of a relative value by looking at the ingredients list. The cheaper kibbles have very little if any animal based protein.

Coly · 07-07-2008, 01:53 AM

[quote=RawFedDogs;328713]

The source of proteins are MUCH more important than the percentage.

I agree... but you must be careful with a giant puppy.

RawFedDogs · 07-07-2008, 07:25 AM

[quote=Coly;328764]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

I agree... but you must be careful with a giant puppy.

Again, it's the quality (source) of the proteins. I raised a Great Dane puppy from 12 weeks into adulthood on nothing but raw meat, bones, and organs. Muscle meat is a source of high quality proteins. Way over half his food intake was meat (the rest was bones and organs) and he never had any joint or bone growth problems at all. I know many others who fed a diet of raw meat, bones and organs to giant breed puppies with no problem. I don't know anyone who fed a raw diet to a giant breed puppy that did have a problem. Feeding too much calcium is more likely to cause bone/joint problems.

Most of the protein in kibble is plant derived low quality protein.

ACampbell · 07-07-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coly

Your Bull Mastiff.. being a giant breed should never have been on puppy food even to begin with.

.. you cannot stunt her growth, you want her to grow at a very slow rate to reduce stress on her joints and prevent problems in the future.

Having said that, I would never, under any circumstance recommend a high protein kibble to a growing giant breed. I would recommend Canidae's All Life Stages.. it's not too expensive, very cost effective.

Since she has a sensitive tummy, you can also try Natural Balance.. they have great foods with limited ingredients and single source proteins.. that way, if her upset stomach is allergy related, you know what the allergy is and can eliminate it completely by switching formulas. I highly recommend Natural Balance to growing giants.. it, like Canidae ALS is all life stages.

Ahem, my Bullmastiff is 7 years old...he's a bit beyond the puppy stage. I don't know what he was fed, I didn't have him as a puppy so that was out of my hands.
The puppy is an APBT (and a female). She does not have stomach issues, she could eat like a goat and it wouldn't affect her like it does my male.
Also, Canidae has not gone over well with my 7 year old (male), he has a tender stomach and needs a single source protein to keep from having stomach issues. Canidae gave him massive diarrhea, we've been down this road, and since I"ve found something that works for him I'm not looking to change HIS food whatsoever.
She is not a giant breed, she is a medium sized breed. My vet suggested changing her food to what I'm feeding my male, it's a 6% drop in protein and I was curious if it was going to make a huge difference...
Sorry if I was not clear the first time, but your post seemed kind of judgemental about it - hope this clears it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACampbell

We're working with single protein for now until we can figure out what Smokey is having an allergy to.
We've tried several types of dog food, and Smokeys stomach is tender, Canidae, Wellness, and several others that gave him major diarrhea and stomach upsets...

Actually, I'm wrong, I was quite clear, looks like you didn't read my first or second post very thorougly. (My dogs breeds are named under they name)

You suggested a brand I already mentioned we had problems with, I also mentioned we found something that works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACampbell

Had a talk with my vet the other day, they said to switch Lily (who is 6 months old) off of puppy food onto adult and that she didn't need the extra protein.
So we have a fish-based protein, at 21% adult food. This is down from the 27% protein from the puppy food...

Here's my original post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

Don't worry so much about exact amounts of anything in a diet. Diets are just not designed to be precise. Do you know how much protein is in your own diet? How much calcium? How much fat? If you don't know about your own diet and you are relatively healthy, why worry about exact amounts of anything in your dog's diet?

If you notice on the nutrition list on a bag of kibble, protein is listed as minimum values (ex. protein 22% min.). That means that the bag could contain 22% or 25% or 27% or even 30% protein. The amounts of all the nutrients vary greatly from one bag to another. Thats the reason for the min and max numbers of nutrients.

The source of proteins are MUCH more important than the percentage. A good amount of protein in dog food is plant based which makes it very inferior and less bioavailable to the dog than animal based. The cheaper the food, the higher percentage of plant based vs. animal based proteins it contains. You can get somewhat of a relative value by looking at the ingredients list. The cheaper kibbles have very little if any animal based protein.

Thanks for the info! I didn't realize it was a minimum percentage, I thought it was approximate, but not minimum.
I'm not feeding a cheap kibble for my adult dog (the giant breed) since he has the stomach issues and I attribute them to some kind of allergy, fish is the main ingredient and first listed (and both dogs seem to love it even though I think it smells yucky)
I was curious at what age it's good to do the switch to adult formula...if you read the puppy food bag it says 1 year, but my vet said 6 months was fine and suggested the switch...
I don't know who writes the stuff on the bag but I do trust my vet...so I guess taking my vets word is the best course of action.

RawFedDogs · 07-07-2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACampbell

I'm not feeding a cheap kibble for my adult dog (the giant breed) since he has the stomach issues and I attribute them to some kind of allergy, fish is the main ingredient and first listed (and both dogs seem to love it even though I think it smells yucky)

Stomach issues are usually not caused by allergies. Allergies usually cause skin type problems and runny eyes, etc.

Quote:

I was curious at what age it's good to do the switch to adult formula...if you read the puppy food bag it says 1 year, but my vet said 6 months was fine and suggested the switch...

It makes absolutely no difference. Remember what I said in my previous post about not worrying about exacty percentages of ingredients because they are not constant or exact anyway. If you read the ingredients list of a puppy food and the same brand of adult food, there is very little difference. Usually just 2 items are switched in their place on the list. Like maybe the 3rd and 5th ingredients are switched. They only make very minor changes in the ingredients list. Just enough to call it something different. It's marketing.

Quote:

I don't know who writes the stuff on the bag but I do trust my vet...so I guess taking my vets word is the best course of action.

Marketing department determines the "information" on the beg. There are laws concerning the ingredients list and the nutrition info but the rest is marketing department. The marketing department is great at making you think the ingredients are something they aren't and at doctoring the ingredients list in order to make appear that some ingredients are more prevelant than they really are. In the world of dog food, marketing departments rule.

I wouldn't trust your vet either. If he is like most vets, his knowledge of nutrition and/or commercial dog food is very limited. The best thing is to do your own research. Learn what the ingredients actually are, where they came from, and what the manufacturing process for your dogs food is. I think you will be surprised.

ACampbell · 07-07-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

Stomach issues are usually not caused by allergies. Allergies usually cause skin type problems and runny eyes, etc.

This I am aware of, my adult dog has come up with recent skin issues before the food change as well (we had to change brands when we moved from AZ to NY as I could not find anywhere that carried what we were feeding

) - we are hoping that this will help to rule out what is causing it...we are also of the opinion that it might be a genetic thing with coat color (blues are known for skin conditions and since he has the dilution gene and the skin issues are only on the blue areas it makes me wonder)
The stomach issues are caused by something food-wise we are pretty sure...we think it could be a beef thing, but not sure, with how he reacted to Canidae ALS and a few other good brands we decided to start from the bottom and work up - but as long as this fish based protein is working I'm not going to change it anytime soon...the gastric disturbances are more than I can handle with the constant clean up of vomit and/or diarrhea. Our vet in Arizona and 2 vets here in NY have not been able to determine the exact cause of the diarrhea or vomiting, other than a food source.
Same thing happens when fed raw beef, normally it comes back up even when fed as treats in small amounts.

rosemaryninja · 07-07-2008, 08:18 PM

I'm sorry, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I just wanted to ask one quick question on protein percentages too. If the kibble I feed has a % too low for my liking (21%), would it be recommended to add a high-protein canned food (that had 42%) to it about once a week?

About Lily -- How is her weight? Over, under, perfect? Six months seems early-ish to switch but it isn't unheard of. Usually you would start to switch at about 9-10 months. I wouldn't switch her till then unless she's currently overweight.

ACampbell · 07-07-2008, 09:07 PM

She's a good weight for her size, has a nice trim belly but isn't thin by any means.
I like your question also, so not a hijack, I wanna know too!

rosemaryninja · 07-07-2008, 09:20 PM

If she has no weight problems then personally I would keep her on the puppy food for another two months, and then begin the gradual switch. My concern is that you might have trouble keeping weight on her if you switch her to adult food right now. I don't know how likely that is -- it's probably contingent on the individual dog's body -- but I have seen it happen.

Then again, it boils down to how much you trust your vet. I have a habit of discounting everything my vet tells me about nutrition because she has recommended that I switch Spunky from raw to SD or Royal Canin. If your vet is more reliable than that, then go ahead and stick to his opinion.

Did he give any particular reason for switching Lily to adult food now?

ACampbell · 07-07-2008, 10:58 PM

My vet just said she didn't need puppy food and to put her on what I'm feeding my adult dog gradually, he mentioned the protein difference wasn't going to make or break her. They sell SD in the office but they didn't push it on me at all (which makes me trust them a bit more) He also mentioned to look at the ingredients and that there wasn't a lot of difference in the puppy food and the adult food (which, there isn't, the adult food I"m feeding is kind of an all life stages meal but they make puppy also)
I'm new to this vet is why I came here to ask, my other vet where I lived here in NY before was a great guy but not good on the nutrition. I had to switch to this one because of costs and a 40 mile drive to the other one.
Lily is getting pretty hefty weight wise, she's at least 40 lbs now and getting stocky. But still has a waistline.

rosemaryninja · 07-08-2008, 01:25 AM

No, the protein difference won't make or break her. If she is starting to show signs of gaining excessive weight then maybe it's time to switch her. I don't think 21% will be insufficient but if you are uncomfortable with it, you can try supplementing with a low-carb, high-protein canned food, or some fresh meat. If your vet is a trustworthy guy then go for it.

DobManiac · 07-08-2008, 10:27 AM

I was wondering if you tried giving Smokey any probiotics to settle his stomach. It might be more of a digestive issue as opposed to an allergy. It seems odd for an allergy to cause vomiting and diarrhea, those aren't normal symptoms.

http://www.preciouspets.org/naturswa...al-defense.htm

http://www.preciouspets.org/natursway/daily-boost.htm

I really like this two. I feed the daily boost everyday to all three of my dogs just to give them a little protection from anything stomach related. I know this wasn't the original question but I thought it could help.

ACampbell · 07-08-2008, 12:39 PM

Thanks! I haven't tried anything like that yet.
We did have a very bad experience with cooked chicken yesterday, I think it might be something in the chicken (Lily also ate it and so did I so I know the chicken was good and I cooked it and used a meat thermometer which went over 200 degrees and chicken is a minimum of 165 degrees to be cooked correctly) so it could be something like that...gave him the chicken, vomited twice and diarrhea that was beyond hideous.

I think I'll give those a shot though, can't hurt!

BoxMeIn21 · 07-08-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DobManiac

I was wondering if you tried giving Smokey any probiotics to settle his stomach. It might be more of a digestive issue as opposed to an allergy. It seems odd for an allergy to cause vomiting and diarrhea, those aren't normal symptoms.

http://www.preciouspets.org/naturswa...al-defense.htm

http://www.preciouspets.org/natursway/daily-boost.htm

I really like this two. I feed the daily boost everyday to all three of my dogs just to give them a little protection from anything stomach related. I know this wasn't the original question but I thought it could help.

OR...what about feeding some green tripe? Green tripe is a natural probiotic that also contains WONDERFUL essential fatty acids. Some say it's the perfect food.