[kelliope]

My Chihuahuas are very small (3 and 6 lbs.). I have transitioned them onto a mostly raw diet recently. They still have free access to Innova Small Bites Kibble which they actually eat a lot of. But below is their basic diet:

Raw Hamburger (extra lean 4% fat - grassfed beef if I can get it)
Calcium supplement
Peas (pureed)
Brown Rice (pureed with the peas)
Plain 2% Yogurt

They also get some fruit (which they LOVE) and little odds and ends like sardines (with no salt added packed in water) almonds or walnuts and some chicken jerkey with added taurine or raw eggs.

My problem is this diet doesn't seem "complete". I do not feed them bones under the advice of my vet (who feels that due to their super small size it is just not worth the risk. He says he has had patients with problems even from raw bones and surgery like that might kill my dog)

Also, everyone keeps talking about organ meat but my dogs won't touch organ meat with a 10 foot pole. Even if it's ground with the meat.

Exactly WHY is organ meat so important and is it possible to supplement for what's missing if I don't feed organ meat?

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by kelliope

My Chihuahuas are very small (3 and 6 lbs.). I have transitioned them onto a mostly raw diet recently.

Where did you get the information for such a mixed up conglomeration of different foods? Most all of them are not needed and yes your little ones can certainly eat bones.

It appears you are trying to make up a diet for a human. Dogs can't digest and have no need for any veggies, fruits or grains. Yogurt doesn't do for dogs what it does for humans so you are wasting your money there also. There is no possible way to tell what other nutrients they need with your diet.

I suggest you back up. Eat the stuff you have gotten for your dogs yourself. They will do you much more good than your dogs. Donate the kibble to a rescue org somewhere.

Go to the grocery store and get some chicken wings. Feed those to your dogs for two weeks. Nothing but chicken wings. They won't eat all the bone but they will eat part of it. They will eat enough to get the calcium they need. By feeding nothing but chicken wings, you will give their bodies a chance to adjust to digesting real food.

After 2 weeks on chicken wings, start adding small pieces of meat from another animal. Start small at first. Feed something from another animal maybe one meal every other day. I suggest turkey. Get yourself some turkey and pinch off little bits for them. After a week of eating turkey every other day, add in a pinch of pork. Get yourself a pork roast and just pinch of a little for each of your dogs. Put pork in the rotation. You CAN use ground turkey and pork but it would be better to give them a piece of the real meat. After a week of pork in the roatation, add a small amount of beef.

At that point, I would feed chicken wings one meal a day and rotate between turkey, pork, and beef the other meal. Somewhere in the next month or so, throw some fish into the mix. If you get a chace and can get some, adding a little lamb or venison or goat every couple of months would be good but its not required. If lamb is easier for you to get than pork or beef, substitute it instead.

Don't worry about organ meat for a couple of months. After 2 months, give them just a pinch of either chicken or beef liver once a week. They only need about 2oz a week plus or minus. Exact amounts of any of this stuff isn't critical.

There ... you have a complete and balanced diet with all the nutrients your dogs need for a long and healthy life. There are no fillers of veggies, fruits, nuts, or grains which are useless to them anyway.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

EDITED TO ADD: Your small dog only need a couple of ounces of food a day divided into at least 2 meals. Double that for your "big" dog.

[kelliope]

While I appreciate the reply - I really have to disagree with some of what you say.

First off - my dogs DO eat fruit naturally. Yep, that's right - I've seen them picking the berries right off the bush (the super ripe ones). They also eat cherries dropped to the ground by birds (something I discourage since I don't want them eating the pits) and any other fruit that drops to the ground. They aren't hungry, but they love the fruit. Also, my dogs eat a lot of grass. They don't throw it up either. They love carrots and steal the ones I am giving to my horses. Apples too.

I am not going to risk feeding raw bones and in addition my dogs won't get near raw chicken.

Anyway, I have done a LOT of research about raw diets and am doing the best I can. I even paid for the book from Monica Segal. And FWIW, I realize the diet may not be totally complete which is why they are still able to have the free-fed kibble.

I am trying to work this all out, but I have to tell you I don't really buy into the whole dogs are only carnivores thing. I believe dogs are primarily carnivores with omnivore tendency and are really opportunistic feeders.

[Dwayners]

I wouldn't feed my dogs raw pork. I don't care how far the industry has come over the years.

I'd consider dogs omnivores as well. Even in the wild (tens of thousands of years ago) they would eat the stomachs of their prey first, which would contain grasses, grains, fruits etc.

If a dogs were carnivores they'd avoid twizzlers completely, which they generally don't.

Oh, organ meat is more important because it contains more complex proteins like Taurine (heart is good for this) that the animals need. I wouldn't worry though, do you know what goes into ground beef...? lolz.

[rosemaryninja]

Wolves don't eat the stomach contents of their prey. If the prey is small enough they will eat the stomach contents, but usually they will shake out the stomach contents of larger herbivorous prey before eating the stomach wall.

Dogs don't produce the enzymes required to break down carbs and starch. They also don't have the physiology for digesting vegetables - they have a short foregut and colon, which isn't designed to digest veggies (vegetables need to sit and ferment in the gut for a long time).

My dogs will eat vegetables volulntarily too, but I believe they do so only for the taste.

If dogs really needed grains and vegetables in their diets, wouldn't their physiology have evolved to be able to digest them on its own a long time ago?

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by kelliope

First off - my dogs DO eat fruit naturally. Yep, that's right - I've seen them picking the berries right off the bush

Yep, dogs and wolves will eat berries when they are in seaon. They are full of sugar and taste real good. It's kinda like us eating candy, ice cream, cake, etc. It tastes wonderful but we certainly don't expect nutrition from them. Our body would be just as healthy or even healthier if we never ate them. Same with dogs and berries.

Also, my dogs eat a lot of grass. They don't throw it up either.

Yeah, it's cool when dogs don't throw it up. It comes out the back end looking just like it did when they ate it except its twisted/woven into a neat little rope. Wonder how they do that?

I am not going to risk feeding raw bones and in addition my dogs won't get near raw chicken.

Bone is a necessary part of their diet. It's not optional. They MUST have it to be healthy. Dogs have been eating bones for millions of years. They know how to do it. They are born with that ability.

Anyway, I have done a LOT of research about raw diets and am doing the best I can. I even paid for the book from Monica Segal.

Listening to Monica Segal is like listening to a used car salesman explain to you that the car was owned by a little ole lady school teacher who lived across the street from the school and she only drove the car to and from work. Let me teach you a life lesson ... Always be wary of advice someone gives you when they stand to make money from the decisions you make based on that advice. Monica Segal will convince you that you need supplements and she just so happens to sell those supplements and will be glad to do you a favor and sell you some. She will also give you email or telephone consultations for varying amounts of money, up to $500. How much money chould she charge to tell you "feed raw meat, bones, and organs"? No, she HAS to make it sound complicated and convince you how necessary her supplements are.

And FWIW, I realize the diet may not be totally complete which is why they are still able to have the free-fed kibble.

I explained to you above how to feed a complete and balanced diet that has worked for millions of years. No free-fed kibble needed or even desired.

I am trying to work this all out, but I have to tell you I don't really buy into the whole dogs are only carnivores thing. I believe dogs are primarily carnivores with omnivore tendency and are really opportunistic feeders.

There are not degrees of carnivorism. Either an animal is a carnivore or an omnivore. One or the other. No in between. Bodies of each are designed differently to handle different foods. There is no doubt that dogs are carnivores. I will explain it further below.

Originally Posted by Dwayners

I wouldn't feed my dogs raw pork. I don't care how far the industry has come over the years.

Been doing it for 6 years and have many friends that have been doing it even longer with no problems at all. No need to worry about pork. Worry much more about fruits, veggies, and grains. MUCH more dangerous.

I'd consider dogs omnivores as well. Even in the wild (tens of thousands of years ago) they would eat the stomachs of their prey first, which would contain grasses, grains, fruits etc.

Well thats just not right. Dr. L. David Mech in his 30 years of observing wild wolves do as rosemary said. They shake out the stomach contents before eating contents. I can personally verify this after watching my dogs eat whole rabbits many times. They always shake out contents before eating the stomach.

There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You much mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth).

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down.

4. Omnivores/herbivores hae an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava or stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. As rosemary said, carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With thier short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. They have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics.

If a dogs were carnivores they'd avoid twizzlers completely, which they generally don't.

It has great taste, no nutrition. They don't eat it for food but for pleasure.

Oh, organ meat is more important because it contains more complex proteins like Taurine (heart is good for this) that the animals need. I wouldn't worry though, do you know what goes into ground beef...? lolz.

You are right except that dogs don't need taurine in their diet like cats do. Dogs manufacture taurine internally. Cats don't have this ability. There is a taurine in all raw meats though. Cooking destroys taurine.

[rosemaryninja]

Finally found the quote I had in mind.

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site."

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system."

David Mech's Wolves: Behaviour, Ecology, and Conservation

[JayBarnes]

This a very informative thread about dog physiology. I recently switched my 10 month old sibe to raw and he seems to love it, hes only been on it for about 4 days now so we will see how he does. So far he's only been fed chiken backs and legs.

[briteday]

Organ meat is important for a variety of amino acids and vitamins. I suppose the OP could argue that the dogs are getting those from the added kibble to the diet. But if you are going with just raw organs provide taurine (heart), vitamins A & D (liver especially).

Two of my small dogs cannot chew bones because they came to us with severe dental disease. So I have a local butchering facility grind whole chickens to which I give them extra organ meat to gind into the mix. And as a side note, since eliminating all carbs from their diet (I do not feed grains or other sugar/carbs/starches) they have not even needed a dental cleaning in almost 3 years now.

If feeding fruits/vegt your dog is only getting fiber value as they do not possess the enzyme necessary to break down the cell walls of plant material. Fiber isn't a bad thing but I don't find it necessary, especially for my small dogs who can put on weight very quickly with extra goodies. Fruits especially contain a lot of sugar.

Also, the kibble that the dogs are eating is only formulated to balance the calciumhosphorus of the food contained in the kibble. The dogs will not get the necessary calcium to balance the other meat-ony meals that they are getting. So figuring out the proper calcium supplementation is critical.

I'm a medical biochemist and I feed pork to both my human and pet families. However I freeze all pork in both cases for at least 30 days before cooking for the family or feeding raw to the dogs/cat. Cases of pork trich are still uncommon in the US, but not impossible.

[kelliope]

Thanks everybody. I'm still really struggling with this. I LOVE my dogs and am trying to do what is best for them. I get so many arguments - including from my mom who has fed just regular food to her dogs and many of her small dogs have lived FAR past their normal lifespan. She has a cocker mix right now that is 20 years old and has been healthy and active right up until this last year. It's hard to argue with that.

Plus I've been doing a lot of research and have been reading research that states many BARF diets are lacking proper nutrition. It's scary. Especially when you have such a tiny dog and there isn't much room for a mistake.

Briteday - I had to laugh about the little dogs prone to fattening up! My dogs eat so much food I can't believe it, but we are so active they are actually quite slim! (wish I could say the same for me!!!!) But I keep wondering if they will start gaining.

I am going to look into seeing if Whole Foods can custom grind some food for us. It's the only place I know of that might do that kind of thing.

It's really hard to make the transition. So many people fight you and they have a lot of the medical training. Briteday - do you feed raw? That dental cleaning thing sounds real good to me! I HATE putting my dogs under anesthesia.

Also, is there any reason not to feed beef or lamb only (with bones)? As I said before, my dogs seem to have a serious aversion to raw poultry.

[Lonewolfblue]

Bones won't hurt the dogs any unless they don't chew into small pieces. I'd worry if they just scarf the food without chewing it up. I found that beef back ribs are excellent, larger dogs can actually chew them into pieces and eat, but small dogs may not be able to, but it would be good for then to chew on for their teeth. You might want to check into it, just cut off 1 or 2 ribs at a time and give it to the dog. Also, I always cut mine into 2 ribs each, bag them separately, then freeze. And when it's time, I just give each dog frozen ribs. They love it. I've stopped feeding chicken to Betty recently due to her having lots of gas every time she had a chicken leg, or a thigh. But I do give her chicken gizzards, she loves them for treats, and it doesn't give her any problems.

[Striker2807]

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

]Don't worry about organ meat for a couple of months. After 2 months, give them just a pinch of either chicken or beef liver once a week. They only need about 2oz a week plus or minus. Exact amounts of any of this stuff isn't critical.

Would a larger dog need more then 2oz? I was looking at Walmart after work today and they sell Chicken liver is a small tub like container so I was just wondering how much of those would a large dog need.

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by Striker2807

Would a larger dog need more then 2oz?

Yes, absolutely. He needs somewhere around 10% of his diet to be organs. It's not critical if its 5% or 15%, just somewhere in the ballpark. It doesn't need to be every day or even every week. Just over time.

I was looking at Walmart after work today and they sell Chicken liver is a small tub like container so I was just wondering how much of those would a large dog need.

As an example, if you feed your dog around a pound a day, that would be 7lbs a week or 30lbs a month. Organs should make up .1lbs/day or .7lbs/week or 3lbs/mo. Again, the amount isn't critical. Best thing to do is just see to it that he gets a little sometimes. I usually give my dogs "a glob" of beef liver once a week or so. In my house "a glob" might be anywhere between .5 and 1 lbs.

One important note. For nutrition purposes, heart and tongue are not organs but are muscle meat. Liver, kidney, lung, pancreas, spleen are all organs.

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

Bones won't hurt the dogs any unless they don't chew into small pieces. I'd worry if they just scarf the food without chewing it up.

Don't try to equate dog chewing with human chewing. Humans, being omnivores, chew their food into a mush before swallowing. Digestion in humans begins in the mouth.

Dogs, being carnivores, rip, tear, and crunch the food until it is small enough to fit down the throat. Dogs can swallow some amazingly large pieces successfully. Digestion for dogs begins in the stomach. If a dog accidentally swallows too large a piece, he is capable of reversing the swallowing process and bring it back to chew some more.

My dogs routinely will crunch a chicken leg quarter a few times then swallow the whole thing as one piece. Very occasionally, they will bring it back up and chew it a little more before swallowing again. None have ever had a problem.

Also, eating fast is natural for a preditor. They must eat their kill quickly before something larger takes it away from him or in case of the wolf when there is a whole pack eating on a carcass, if you don't eat fast, it's gone before you get your fill.

[Lonewolfblue]

What would they consider gizzards as? An organ? And what's the nutritional value?

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

What would they consider gizzards as? An organ? And what's the nutritional value?

I THINK gizzards are muscle meat. It is basically a sack. I don't think it has any enzymes in it.

Nutrients:
Water 79%
Protein 18%
Fat 2%

Also the vitamins: C, Thiamin, Riboflavin, niacin, B-6, B-12, A, E

Also many minerals, I am too lazy to type in.

[wyx]

Originally Posted by kelliope

Also, is there any reason not to feed beef or lamb only (with bones)? As I said before, my dogs seem to have a serious aversion to raw poultry.

I would think beef/lamb would be great, in fact probably more healthful than a diet with much poultry in it because of the more saturated fatty acid profile (more saturated is GOOD). Certainly the protein is complete and well balanced. We feed ours quite a bit of chicken but only because of cost considerations.

Just make sure they get organ meats and green tripe if you can get it.

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by wyx

I would think beef/lamb would be great, in fact probably more healthful than a diet with much poultry in it because of the more saturated fatty acid profile (more saturated is GOOD).

Beef and lamb are very nutritious foods and great to feed a dog, however, I wouldn't switch a dog directly from kibble to either of these two items. They are fatty and more difficult to digest. I would switch to chicken first and let the dog get his stomach juices up to par before moving on to the other two. The bones of chickens are much easier to eat and digest also.

For an experienced dog a diet without poultry and mostly beef and lamb would be great. I would add a couple of more protein sources in just for variety.

Just make sure they get organ meats and green tripe if you can get it.

Organs are a necessity and can't be left out. Tripe is an ok food that doesn't have nearly the value that the places that sell it try to make you think it has.

[kelliope]

Thanks for all the additional input.

It's weird. I gave my dogs some slightly cooked (kind of seared) chicken breast the other day and they both got diarrhea. Yet, they can eat raw beef and lamb with zero side effects.

I am wondering if it is ill advised to have the market grind raw chicken bones with the beef or lamb (with organ meats). Any reason not to do that?

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by kelliope

It's weird. I gave my dogs some slightly cooked (kind of seared) chicken breast the other day and they both got diarrhea. Yet, they can eat raw beef and lamb with zero side effects.

That is weird. It's usually the other way around. One more suggestion. Take the skin off the chicken and feed a smaller amount.

I am wondering if it is ill advised to have the market grind raw chicken bones with the beef or lamb (with organ meats). Any reason not to do that?

Yes there is a reason not to do that. I just addressed that in my post on another thread. I think it was the thread "is raw the answer". Your dogs should be able to handle lamb bones. Feed some lamb pieces with bones still in it and that will take care of the bone need. Dogs don't need A LOT of bone. If it's just 10% of the diet, you are ok. Thats about 1 1/2 oz for each pound of meat. You should be able to feed some lamb bone once or twice a week and be ok.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

I THINK gizzards are muscle meat. It is basically a sack. I don't think it has any enzymes in it.

Nutrients:
Water 79%
Protein 18%
Fat 2%

Also the vitamins: C, Thiamin, Riboflavin, niacin, B-6, B-12, A, E

Also many minerals, I am too lazy to type in.

I was just about to ask this question. I just bought "hearts and gizzards" and my dogs went ape over them. The little chicken hearts were bite size for the little dogs. They cost practically nothing.