[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by Striker2807

Feed your dog a variety of meat, with some bone, and some organ and it will all balance over time. With Organ meat you will want to feed it a few times a mouth and make sure you throw fish in there say at least once a week?

You got it! Just don't forget to begin slowly. Chicken only for a couple of weeks, then add turkey to the diet on the third week. That week feed mostly chicken but some turkey too. The next week add some pork into the mix. The next week some fish. The next week beef. Don't feed any organs for a couple of months and then feed liver in VERY small amounts and each time you feed it, feed larger amounts until you are feeding a good size glob.

Also just out of curious because I won't be feeding a small dog raw, but how would you feed a small dog raw?

No, you just feed appropriate size meals. Tiny dogs eat tiny meals.

Wouldn't you need to take extra precaution with bones?

No

Also I was reading an article in a magazine today that said bones carry no nutritional value I thought it provided things like calcium?

Bones contain calcium and have great dental value in that they clean teeth as they are being chewed. They are a necessary part of a any diet and necessary for good health.

[Kathyy]

Bones are very nutritious! Here is what is in one bone meal supplement. Bone meal is dried ground bone only, nothing added and see all the good stuff in there. They provide most of the minerals a dog needs daily. MOST. Not all.

http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/161142.html

I weigh my dog's food. It is such a small amount of food it is easy to overfed. A small digital scale is a great tool.

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by Kathyy

Bone meal is dried ground bone only, nothing added and see all the good stuff in there.

Bone meal does not prevent periodontal disease like whole bones do. Bone meal CAN stick together in the gut similar to concrete and cause an intestinal obstruction. Feeding whole animal parts with bone included is safer than feeding bone meal.

[Kathyy]

I agree, not suggesting using it. I posted that so others could see the good stuff bone has in it. It isn't just calcium and phosphorus.

[JayBarnes]

Ok. I've got a question that has been bugging me ever since I've started feeding raw. What do you do when your dog has just ate a raw chicken meal and he comes up and wants to lick all over you? I clean the sink with clorox, along with my hands, after each feeding of raw. But I go right back out and want to pet on my dog and when his mouth gets near my hand I feel that I have to go right back in the house and wash my hands again. I may be worrying about it too much but I dont think so. Someone tell me what you do after you feed your dogs to keep all the bacteria at bay. I love the thought of feeding my dog healthy, but I dont want to get sick because of it.

[pamperedpups]

What do you normally do if your dog licks you? You know he spends a lot of time licking himself, sniffing excrement, etc. If you are worried about it, wash up.

[rosemaryninja]

Believe me, raw food is not the most bacteria-ridden thing your dog has put in his mouth...

Bacteria isn't confined to the piece of meat that you give your dog. Bacteria is EVERYWHERE. It's in your dog's mouth all the time, not just right after a meal. It's on your counters, doorknobs and it's on your computer keyboard. Just use common sense like you would for anything.

[wyx]

a few random thoughts on raw -

First, I do give ours a little bit of kibble - red meat Evo (it's grain-free, low carb) for training treats and cookies because it's easy to handle individual pieces and they like it, and either Evo or Ziwi Peak (mostly dried meat, also grain free) for my SAR pack. I add a bunch of rendered beef fat to the kibble to raise the caloric density, and the high saturated fat level helps prevent oxidation. I wouldn't feed kibble as a regular diet but for traveling, backpacking and other applications where you need a high-density feed that doesn't require refrigeration there are some choices out there.

As far as bones preventing tooth decay/gum disease, I don't think the mechanical action of chewing bones is as much of a factor as the fact that a good raw meaty bone/prey model diet is very low in sugar/starch which feeds the kind of bacteria that cause decay and periodontitis, as well as better for the immune system and less likely to cause inflammation in general than a grain/carbohydrate based diet. This is exactly the same effect seen in humans eating a paleolithic (low-carb, low grain) diet. The teeth and gums stay healthy without dental care. So if you have to grind or break up bones for a pet missing teeth, I wouldn't sweat it.

Omega-3 fatty acids - not a lot is needed, just enough to balance the intake of omega-6 fatty acids. Total polyunsaturates (PUFAs) should be a very small portion of fat intake. Why? PUFAs are highly unstable. They oxidize easily and create "free radicals" in the body contributing to inflammatory disease and compromised immune function. Minimize n-6 intake by eliminating grains from the diet and you need less n-3 as well. However, the fat in factory farmed animals tends to be higher in n-6 FAs because THEY are fattened on grain. So unless you are feeding your pets mainly grass-finished free range meat (and most of us can't afford that), it's probably not a bad idea to give them a little fish oil.

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by JayBarnes

What do you do when your dog has just ate a raw chicken meal and he comes up and wants to lick all over you?

I let him. Even when he licks my face and mouth right after eating, it's ok.

I clean the sink with clorox, along with my hands, after each feeding of raw.

I wash my hands in soap and water and wipe down the counter with a damp rag. Nothing more except sometimes I wipe the counter with a Lysol wipe if I happen to feed some particularly rotten meat.

I may be worrying about it too much but I dont think so.

Yeah, you are.

Someone tell me what you do after you feed your dogs to keep all the bacteria at bay. I love the thought of feeding my dog healthy, but I dont want to get sick because of it.

I don't do anything special. Neither me nor any of my family nor my grandchildren, nor any visitors to my house have gotten sick from my dogs after 6 years of feeding raw. Bacteria is everywhere. It's no worse when you feed raw. One important fact to remember ... any germ that doesn't kill you is good for you.

Originally Posted by wyx

As far as bones preventing tooth decay/gum disease, I don't think the mechanical action of chewing bones is as much of a factor as the fact that a good raw meaty bone/prey model diet is very low in sugar/starch which feeds the kind of bacteria that cause decay and periodontitis, as well as better for the immune system and less likely to cause inflammation in general than a grain/carbohydrate based diet.

Good point but what about all the dogs I have seen and heard of that are exactly like mine. They begin a raw diet (with bones) while they have very nasty teeth and periodontal disease. A few weeks after starting the diet, all those things go away.

My vet kept after me to let her clean my two Golden's teeth for 3 years. Every visit, I heard the lecture about teeth. On a visit 3 months after starting raw, she exclaimed at how clean they were and wanted to know how I cleaned them so well myself. Of course I didn't do anything other than feed a raw diet with bones included.

Bones won't make cavities go away but will take care of most any other dental problem. I have seen it tighten up loose teeth. I have seen periodontitis disappear. Bone meal or ground bone won't do any of those things.

[wyx]

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

Good point but what about all the dogs I have seen and heard of that are exactly like mine. They begin a raw diet (with bones) while they have very nasty teeth and periodontal disease. A few weeks after starting the diet, all those things go away.

My vet kept after me to let her clean my two Golden's teeth for 3 years. Every visit, I heard the lecture about teeth. On a visit 3 months after starting raw, she exclaimed at how clean they were and wanted to know how I cleaned them so well myself. Of course I didn't do anything other than feed a raw diet with bones included.

Bones won't make cavities go away but will take care of most any other dental problem. I have seen it tighten up loose teeth. I have seen periodontitis disappear. Bone meal or ground bone won't do any of those things.

No doubt there are benefits to eating bones, but I don't think that non-recreational bones really do anything for cleaning teeth. When my dogs eat a raw meaty bone they don't spend a whole lot of time chewing it. It's more like chomp, chomp, swallow, gone. The bone is inside the meat/skin and probably doesn't even come in contact with more than the tips of the carnassials.

The benefit to a RMB diet is that the conditions in the mouth don't encourage plaque formation and bacterial decay in the first place. In other words, you would probably see the same benefit whether you feed your dog whole bones or grind them. Try it on yourself - eat a diet very low in carbohydrate for awhile and see what happens to your gum health. My periodontal disease has almost completely reversed (much to the surprise of my dentist), and it's not because I spend a lot of time chewing on bones.

[JayBarnes]

I've not been feeding prey model raw for about a week now. At first my dog was crazy about raw chicken. But now he doesn't seem to enthused when I throw him a chicken quarter. I know he'll eat it before he starves but I would like for him to like what he's eating. Husky's dont eat a whole lot so maybe I'm trying to over feed him, one thing I've found that he doesn't like at all are chicken legs. Very rarely will he eat the leg off of a chicken quarter. He eats around it and leaves it laying. Anyone else have this problem. Also, what meats have you fed your dogs that they seem to really really like? Thanks in advance.

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by JayBarnes

I know he'll eat it before he starves but I would like for him to like what he's eating. Husky's dont eat a whole lot so maybe I'm trying to over feed him, one thing I've found that he doesn't like at all are chicken legs. Very rarely will he eat the leg off of a chicken quarter.

Feeding a couple of chicken quarters a day shouldn't be over feeding a husky. Give him some time. He is just starting and eating this stuff is more work than eating kibble out of a bowl. He will get used to it. If he isn't loosing weight, don't worry about how much he is eating. As long as he maintains a proper build he is eating exactly the right amount.

Also, what meats have you fed your dogs that they seem to really really like?

I have one dog that doesn'tn particularly like turkey but he eats it because he knows he isn't getting anything else until he does. My dogs love pork, beef and venison. They will eat fish but don't really care of it too much either.

If you haven't already, check out my web page at http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm It should answer a lot of your questions.

[JayBarnes]

I'll check it out. Thanks for the help.

[Striker2807]

Well I just fed my puppy her last bowl of kibble this morning and I am now going to go to Walmart and buy me some chicken quarters for my puppy. I was hoping to wait to wait till Friday, but oh well.

I am excited and nervous at the same time! We will see come dinner time how she does!

[UPDATE]
Well I just tried to give my puppy a chicken quarter and all she did was lick it for 45 minutes. Then after we got back inside she ran and ate the last little bit of the other dogs kibble so she is hungry I just don't think she realizes that she is suppose to eat the chicken quarter. So I am thinking of maybe putting it in her food bowl in a few hours and see if that helps.

From what everyone has said I am assuming this is common? Is there anything I can do or just be patience and eventually she will get the idea and start eating it?

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by Striker2807

Well I just tried to give my puppy a chicken quarter and all she did was lick it for 45 minutes.

Thats pretty common. She doesn't know it's food and even if she does, you need to realize that eating a chicken quarter is a lot different physically than eating kibble. It is a whole different process. It's something she has to work out on her own. She has to learn how to eat it. You might try cutting some strips of meat so they are hanging on it but still mostly attached. It will give her something to hold on to and pull off.

So I am thinking of maybe putting it in her food bowl in a few hours and see if that helps.

You should feed her in the same spot she has always eaten. If you worry about mess or germs(I don't), you can put down an old towel or plastic table cloth for her to eat on ... OR you can babygate her in the kitchen. The kitchen floor is very easy to clean up after a meal.

Is there anything I can do or just be patience and eventually she will get the idea and start eating it?

Be patient and don't make a big deal out of it. If you don't make it a big deal, it won't become a big deal. It may take her a couple of days or so to figure it out. Don't worry, she will be ok. Whatever she doesn't eat, put back in the fridge for next meal. If it takes are an hour to eat it, its ok. She will get faster.

[Striker2807]

Well I am still not having luck with my puppy eating the chicken quarters no matter what I do all she will do is lick it and turn her head. I have tried all your advice given her and hour and she won't even touch it.

She did manage to steal a huge bowl of kibble the other day but I am giving her till Saturday to eat the Chicken quarter. If she doesn't I am going back to kibble didn't want to do that, but I don't know what else to do.

[RawFedDogs]

Originally Posted by Striker2807

Well I am still not having luck with my puppy eating the chicken quarters no matter what I do all she will do is lick it and turn her head. I have tried all your advice given her and hour and she won't even touch it.

I think I worded my last response to you poorly. As long as she is playing with it, licking it, etc. leave it out. Once 10 minutes have passed with no interest in it, take it up until next meal time. Don't give any treats or snacks between meals.

What age and size puppy are we talking about here? I forgot.

She did manage to steal a huge bowl of kibble the other day but I am giving her till Saturday to eat the Chicken quarter.

Her eating the kibble set you back a few days. Get the kibble out of the house. She still thinks it the only food there. Did you cut some strips of meat to hang off the quarter but yet still attached? DId she do anything with those?

If she doesn't I am going back to kibble didn't want to do that, but I don't know what else to do.

Hehe, Patience, patience, patience ... We still have other tricks up our sleeves. We are humans, she is a puppy ... we are smarter than she is. We CAN outsmart her. I need to know her age and size before we decide what our next course of action will be.

I want you to describe to me EXACTLY what you do from when you take the quarter out of the fridge til when you put it back. Are you giving her the quarter in her normal eating place? Are you standing back and let her decide what to do with it? Are you staying quiet and not trying to coach her? Often times owners get so involved in trying to get the dog to eat that she just gets confused and stops doing anything because she is confused. You need to just stand back, don't say anything and let her decide how to handle that big piece of meat. Don't hover over her.

[briteday]

[quote=wyx;329354]a few random thoughts on raw -

As far as bones preventing tooth decay/gum disease, I don't think the mechanical action of chewing bones is as much of a factor as the fact that a good raw meaty bone/prey model diet is very low in sugar/starch which feeds the kind of bacteria that cause decay and periodontitis, as well as better for the immune system and less likely to cause inflammation in general than a grain/carbohydrate based diet. This is exactly the same effect seen in humans eating a paleolithic (low-carb, low grain) diet. The teeth and gums stay healthy without dental care. So if you have to grind or break up bones for a pet missing teeth, I wouldn't sweat it.[quote]



I have to agree with Wyx here. I have 3 small dogs, two came to us with horrible dental disease and missing many teeth. When I switched the dogs to a raw prey model diet I noticed that they had trouble with even the smallest bones...necks, wings, etc. So our vet suggested that we grind whole chickens for one meal per day and then they get variety muscle/organ meat (boneless, but supplemented with finely ground eggshells in the correct proportions) for the other meal each day. Since they are small dogs (about 10 pounds each) the muscle meats are not huge pieces that they rip into either.

We've been feeding raw for almost 3 years now and have yet to need a dental.

I believe as a biochemist that dental disease in some dogs is more about carb (starches turn into sugars) intake than it is about mechanical scraping by bones, or kibble for that matter. If it is all about mechanical scraping then why do kibble fed dogs have dental disease?

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by Striker2807

Well I am still not having luck with my puppy eating the chicken quarters no matter what I do all she will do is lick it and turn her head. I have tried all your advice given her and hour and she won't even touch it.

Since raw meat doesn't carry much of a smell, you might want to try throwing in the chicken quarter in a hot pan for a few seconds on both sides, don't cook it, just toss it in long enough to smell it up a bit for a couple days in a row. I had to do that with Disco until she got the taste for the raw meat - and NO, doing that in the beginning did not create a picky dog.

[Striker2807]

Originally Posted by RawFedDogs

I think I worded my last response to you poorly. As long as she is playing with it, licking it, etc. leave it out. Once 10 minutes have passed with no interest in it, take it up until next meal time. Don't give any treats or snacks between meals.

What age and size puppy are we talking about here? I forgot.



Her eating the kibble set you back a few days. Get the kibble out of the house. She still thinks it the only food there. Did you cut some strips of meat to hang off the quarter but yet still attached? DId she do anything with those?



Hehe, Patience, patience, patience ... We still have other tricks up our sleeves. We are humans, she is a puppy ... we are smarter than she is. We CAN outsmart her. I need to know her age and size before we decide what our next course of action will be.

I want you to describe to me EXACTLY what you do from when you take the quarter out of the fridge til when you put it back. Are you giving her the quarter in her normal eating place? Are you standing back and let her decide what to do with it? Are you staying quiet and not trying to coach her? Often times owners get so involved in trying to get the dog to eat that she just gets confused and stops doing anything because she is confused. You need to just stand back, don't say anything and let her decide how to handle that big piece of meat. Don't hover over her.

Well I think she is doing good now! Right after I posted that she started showing interest in the chicken quarter! She still doesn't know what to do with it, but she is starting to drag it around my room (which is where I usually feed her) and trying to figure it out. Not to mention she is getting excited about eating now I feel that in a matter of a few days she will have it figured out.