[springermom]

If you don't mind, I'd like to post an article my friend wrote about dog food. It's long, but it explains alot.

http://ashleyspets.com/DogFood.html

Dog Food ~ Decoding Fact from Fiction

The great dog food debate- the good the bad and the ugly. How does one choose? If you follow your television you may believe that the companies that advertise on there have foods full of tasty meat and chock full of great vitamins and minerals, but is it true? Not so much. In the world of dog food it is buyer beware, yet the average person picking up a supermarket brand of dog food is unaware of the hazard. This does not make them bad owners – they are simply uninformed owners. Who knew you needed to research dog food more diligently than your own food?

While it is true many dogs have lived out full life spans on Ol’ Roy or a similar low-quality kibble for years, it does not mean it is the best choice. It would be like you going out to eat at your local McDonalds daily. You wouldn’t eat junk food on a daily basis and neither should your pet either.

Better quality foods are highly digestible which means there is less waste to come out! Poor quality pet foods contain fillers, like corn. It makes your dog feel full but is highly indigestible. Feeding a premium food means that your dog will eat less, IAMS suggest that you feed a 25 lbs dog 4 cups of kibble. On a holistic brand like Solid Gold, you are likely to feed 1.5 cups or less! Holistic brands cost more but last longer than any supermarket brand. Since your pet is healthier by feeding a premium brand, it also means fewer visits to the vet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Veterinarians and the Pet Food Industry~
Veterinarians and nutrition is a touchy subject for many. I love my vet. She is great, when it comes to the overall well being of my dog. When it comes to nutrition, I respect her, but I do not want her suggestions. When I go to my doctor, and I have a nutrition based problem I see a specialist. The same is true in the animal world. While some vets can specialize in certain areas like nutrition, which require hours of research and practical work the average vet has 3-5 hours of nutrition studies per semester. A drop in the bucket in comparison to the countless hours studied on the medical health of animals. While I will not take the statistics offered from vet schools without a grain of salt, “a typical veterinary medical student spends about 4,000 hours in classroom, laboratory, and clinical study”1 That’s a lot of education, and without specializing, very little of it is on food. So why do so many people exclusively trust their vet’s opinion? They are professionals and are devoted to the care of our pets but are sorely lacking when it comes to a pet’s diet.
Without doing your own research you honestly would not know what is in the food you feed your precious cat or dog. Also, they get kickbacks in selling food whether it be IAMS, Science Diet or Hill’s Veterinary Formula (made by Science Diet). “Charles Danten was a veterinarian in Montreal for 20 years. Now he's a journalist who writes about the ethics of his former profession. He told Marketplace that the mark up on premium pet food accounted for as much as 20 per cent of his income.”2 Unless your pet has a serious problem that is untreatable in any other form, there is no reason to use Hill’s. For short term problems there are benefits, but it has a large price tag for the daily feeding of mediocre ingredients for the life span of your pet. If you understand the animal’s problem, you can often find a better food that will also help your pet. Every vet diet I have looked at contains mediocre to bad ingredients. Some have reasons for working like the K/O kangaroo and Oatmeal from Eukanuba’s Vet line (most dogs have never been exposed to kangaroo and can not be allergic to something they have never been in contact with) and others like the gastro formulas are just a load of bad ingredients that do not seem to have any calming properties. There is little reason for a dog to be on any vet formula for life. With some care and research you can find better foods that will also do the same job if not a better one without a prescription. It does not matter which brand a vet pushes, Hill’s, Medi-cal or Eukanuba’s veterinary diets. They all have a similar jumble of less than desirable ingredients.

[springermom]

Where to Find Better Food Choices~
Ingredients, ingredients, ingredients. While you may not read the label on the box of chocolate chip cookies you buy for yourself, it is imperative you do read the ingredients on what you feed your pet. Just because the bag is pretty and says on it “formulated by a vet” or “now with extra meat” it does not mean it is actually good. Good food does not come from the supermarket, or big chains like Walmart, and often not from large pet store chains. The big chain stores for pets are wising up, and they realize people are getting better informed. I have found great holistic brands along side poor quality brands that make me want to choke; the selection is often not so great. Feed stores are your friend. Many carry only great foods and have knowledgeable employees that can help you wade through the ever expanding world of dog food and its jargon. This does not mean that every employee working in a feed store is helpful mind you. If you go in armed with knowledge you can figure out either on your own or with some help what it is you need for Fluffy or Fido. Also, please keep in mind that not every food works with every dog. You may not even realize that the food is not ‘perfect’ until you find the one that is. When you do though, and get less stool, and firmer stool, you will be cheering so loudly the neighbours may be calling Bellevue for you. So just because the first better food you tried is not working perfectly it is no reason to get discouraged and discount all better quality foods because of it. It simply takes a little time. I should also add that no matter what you choose to feed, you should read the label from time to time. Ingredients may change a little or vary the order in which they are listed. For a sensitive dog, you may see some negative effects when you did not purposely change food on your pet. Manufacturers do not have to inform you of a change, although many do when making a significant one. Just something to think about once in a while.

Allergens: Environmental and Food~
Allergies in dogs are becoming more and more common these days. On your own without allergy testing you will not know if it is environmental or if it is the food. Even if you do allergy test and pinpoint environmental allergies some of them are near impossible to deal with alone like grass. Your dog may end up needing allergy shots to control it if it is that severe. In some cases it is not an allergy it is an intolerance, but that will not make your pet any less uncomfortable.3 The easiest thing to start with is eliminating the most common sources of allergies in food. Wheat, corn, soy, chicken, and beef are fairly common allergy causing foods. There are others, and any dog could be allergic to preservatives in food or something far less common. If you start by looking for a food without the main causes of allergies you may find you cured your problem on your own. A dog can not be allergic to something they have never been exposed to, so if you choose a food with a more obscure meat like bison, or a fish along with a grain like oatmeal you may find that your furry friend eases down on itching and paw nibbling without major intervention. Keep in mind that food based allergies can take up to 6 months to disappear from a dog’s system, even after no longer coming in contact with the allergen or intolerance. In part it may be a waiting game, along with the possibility of environmental allergens. You may be able to minimize some of the problems with a better food though which is a great step in the right direction.

What is Really in the Dog Food Bag?
What does that dog food label really mean? Your dog is a carnivore. Ideally you want a food that is high in meat and low in filler. Foods like Science diet that start with corn indicate you paid for mainly indigestible filler in a pretty coloured bag. You want a meat source, and even better if it is ‘meal’ though it is not required. Meal is meat without water weight, so there is ‘more’ meat being accounted for. Many good foods have more than once source of meat though so do not fret. A couple of meat sources at the top of a label meal or not is an excellent start. You also want to be able to identify them. Poultry is bad, it could be who knows what, versus chicken or turkey is just fine. By-products can be a touchy subject with some people. They are not just the internal organs of the animal in question. I only know of one dog food off hand that clarifies that they are using just the internal organs. While an animal in the wild would eat most everything, by-products in dog food are mighty scary. In the wild the dog would be able to eat the whole animal- organs and the meat. In "say a 40 pound bag of dog food of which the 20% animal protein included consists of only chicken feet, heads, bones and feathers and maybe some livers and hearts. If at all, because chicken livers and other organ meats are used separately as pet food ingredients or also sold for human consumption. Have a look around at the pet store some time and see how many treats and canned foods made
with chicken liver."4 So you end up with a bag of dog food that is mainly the left over garbage that had no where else to go. Your dog is not getting the usable meat they would in the wild along with the extras such as organs.

[springermom]

The way things are worded for definitions by AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) http://www.aafco.org can be very sneaky. Read the definitions of what ingredients are and “ask yourself why something is worded in just that specific way. Words and phrases that are present in the definition of one item, but absent in another do tell a lot about what could or could not be in a product.”5 If you do not understand what something is, it is often something you wish to avoid. Unspecific ingredients such as ‘animal fat’ are pretty frightening. It could be derived from the 4 D’s of the slaughter industry- dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter and could be part of a cow or road kill from how the AAFCO definition is written. It truly bothers me to know that “companion animals from clinics, pounds, and shelters can and are being rendered and used as sources of protein in pet food.”6 Poorer quality grains that are being ‘reused’ from human industry are also common and low in nutritional value. Lastly, just because something is a ‘meal’ does not make it good. There are many that may be in poor quality foods including meat and bone meal- which is all made from parts that can not be used for human consumption, corn gluten meal – which has some protein but not enough to be anywhere near a top ingredient along with as many as 10 other really poor quality ‘meal’ choices. Just use common sense. If it sounds mysterious, or it is unspecific, walk away. This site tells you the AAFCO definitions and a little people perspective on all the worst ingredients in pet food if you would like more specific education on what pet food can be. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index....badingredients

Better Ingredient Choices~
Now that is a lot of ingredients to condemn, so what does that leave us with? You want a good source of protein as your first ingredient and possibly second and or third as well depending- for example bison, salmon meal, turkey, chicken meal. If you remember from earlier ‘meal’ is the water removed, so a few sneaky companies may put a good source of meat followed by a grain. And if it is not a specific meat meal, it means you have a food with more grain than meat. How is the average person supposed to know this? They often do not. And it is how companies get away with more fillers than meat.

A few foods contain no grains but they are higher in protein than most dogs need, so next there will be a grain. Good ones include brown rice, oatmeal, millet, barley.. There are more but that is a start. White rice is not evil, it is just not as healthy, and is preferable if it is a little further down the ingredient list. ‘Ground’ or ‘meal’ is okay too, but avoid things like ‘brewer’s rice’. It is a by-product of the brewing industry with so little nutrition it is practically worthless. You do not need 3 forms of rice in one food, it is overkill on filler. And sweeteners are not helpful either. Menadione is a vitamin many better companies are removing from their food as it may cause health problems.

Many senior dog foods and weight loss foods are often jam packed with fillers. In diet food the dog is pooping out what it can not digest and is not taking in as many nutrients or calories. You would be easier on the dog to feed a better quality food in a smaller amount, and supplementing with low calorie vegetables to fill the dog up. Senior foods are trying to give a dog less calories. But by packing it full of fillers what exactly are you paying for? Your dog to poop more than it should need to? Better companies do have better senior foods, but you really need to read the labels to find something that is worth the cost.

Multinational Corporations and the Pet Food They Make~
Many of the main stream dog food companies that are the most well known also own human manufacturing companies. Nice way to reuse your by-products for free. Food is not marketed to your pet; it is with you in mind. Your dog does not care what the bag looks like. These big businesses are making a profit from what should really be going to waste. What big businesses own pet food companies?

Nestlé - Alpo, Come 'N Get It, Mighty Dog, Chef's Blend, Fancy Feast, Friskies, Kit 'N Kaboodle, Deli-Cat, and Nestlé Purina
products such as Dog Chow, Pro Plan, Beneful and Purina One

Colgate-Palmolive - Hill's Science Diet Pet Food

Del Monte - 9-Lives, Kibbles `n Bits, Cycle, Gravy Train,
Nature's Recipe, and Reward

Procter & Gamble - Eukanuba and Iams

Mars - Pedigree, Advance, Cesar, Whiskas and Sheba
Another leading pet food, Nutro, is not a multinational
company.7

Except for Nutro, all the brands of dog food listed contain waste ingredients from human production of food. Nice cheap way to recycle and it is your pet that gets the short end of the stick. Most of these brands advertise so they are in your home and in your head. It is easy to believe that they are great from what it says on the front of the bag along with the pretty pictures of happy dogs.

[springermom]

How to Analyze the Label~
Tired yet? Let us look at some common foods pushed often at unknowing consumers and why they are not so great. I am picking a common bag of food from a few of the big names. Some of their foods fare a little better some a little worse, but none are actually good. So within the range of looking at these it shows you an awful assortment of what is actually made by these companies.

Science Diet (adult Large Breed)- Corn meal, chicken by-product meal, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), chicken liver flavor, vegetable oil, dried egg product, flaxseed, glucosamine hydrochloride, L-carnitine, chondroitin sulfate, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid, minerals (salt, calcium carbonate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement)

The first ingredient is corn which is very indigestible and the bulk of what the food is- filler. Chicken by-product meal means that there is no actual real source of meat in this food since we talked earlier about what this actually contains. And soybean meal which is a “poor quality protein filler used to boost the protein content of low quality pet foods”8 Lastly of the main ingredients there is an unspecific fat that could really contain anything. This is a food pushed on television- often pushed by vets. And it is mainly garbage.

Let us look at another. Purina has high television coverage, commercials of happy bouncing dogs. So what is actually in it?

Purina (Beneful Original)- Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, animal digest, salt, phosphoric acid, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), dl-Methionine, zinc sulfate, glyceryl monostearate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite

Another food that is mainly corn. Coincidence? No, it is cheap filler. You make more money being cheap. More chicken by-products rather than real meat, and more corn in an even less protein filled form. Whole wheat flour is generally so processed most of the nutrients are gone “flour ingredients are simply the leftover dust from processing human food ingredients”9 And the last main ingredient beef tallow which is a flavouring agent for low quality food and very cheap to obtain.

How about Eukanuba. They are so large they own the Superdogs franchise. They are a subsidiary of IAMS. Vets push the food often. They have to be good, right?

Eukanuba Original (Adult Maintenance Formula)- Chicken, chicken byproduct meal, corn meal, ground whole grain sorghum, ground whole grain barley, fish meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E, and citric acid), brewers rice, natural chicken flavor, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, sodium hexametaphosphate, calcium carbonate, flax meal, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, dl-methionine, vitamin E supplement, beta carotene, zinc oxide, ascorbic acid, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, vitamin A acetate, calcium pantothenate, biotin, rosemary extract, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), niacin, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), inositol, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), vitamin D3 supplement, potassium iodide, folic acid, cobalt carbonate

They actually use chicken which is a step up from the foods we have looked at, but when the water weight is removed it sits behind the corn meal. Which means this food is mainly chicken by-products like the others. It contains corn meal as cheap filler like the other foods so far. Ground whole grain sorghum is a good carbohydrate, but it has very poor digestibility making it a poor choice as a main ingredient in a dog food. The barley would be good if the food was not already full of so many fillers and the fish meal is unspecific which means the quality is anyone’s guess. And if it is not human grade it has been preserved with ethoxyquin which does not have to be mentioned on the label- it is banned from human consumption, but it is alright for your dog? “A dog is consuming up to 300 times more ethoxyquin than allowed for people. (depending upon the weight) Also many dog food manufacturers are not always listing it as an ingredient on the packaging, but sometimes merely print ‘E’.”10 Lastly chicken fat is fine. But out of that ingredient list only two of the top ingredients are actually good. And this is a food people assume is great.

[springermom]

How about a ‘vet diet’ for comparison of how great the ingredients are for the prices one pays. It should also be mentioned it is far more difficult to locate the ingredient lists for prescription diets than normal food.

Hill’s Science Diet Canine I/D (gastro formula for sensitive stomachs)-
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soy Fibre, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Soybean Oil, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Ethoxyquin (a preservative).

How is corn sensitive on a stomach? It is not. They are using a mediocre quality rice, and dried egg product is a stool hardener which is really high on this ingredients list. Chicken by-products are the ‘meat’ and then more corn, but at least the fat is specific. This is barely a food in all honesty. Some days my compost bucket contains more nutritional value than what is listed here. It would be far cheaper and better food for you canine pal to cook beef and rice for a sensitive tummy.

Some of the worst of the worst. Ol’ Roy. Cheap food shows in its ingredients.

Ol' Roy (Premium)- Ground yellow corn, meat and bone meal, ground whole wheat, soybean meal, wheat middlings, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), chicken by-product meal, rice, animal digest, salt, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, vitamin E supplement, niacin, copper sulafate, manganous oxide, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, menadione sodium bisulfite (complex source of vitamin K), calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, riboflavin supplement, cobalt carbonate, folic acid, sodium selenite

I have seen worse, but seriously, if one were to look at the ingredients they should honestly wonder without anyone’s help. Corn and meat and bone meal as discussed earlier (the 4 Ds of the slaughterhouse) that could be goats, road kill or technically euthanized pets. The wheat would be okay if it was not already full of fillers, the soybean meal is a poor by-product that is more filler and the middlings are floor sweepings with no nutritional value; super cheap filler. Last main ingredient is animal fat which has been gone over more than once and I am sure you now know what it is by now.

That was a lot of learning through bad foods. Let us look at a good one for comparison.

Timberwolf Organics (Wilderness Elk Dry)- Fresh elk, salmon meal, millet, sweet potatoes, oats, flaxseed, carrot, watercress, spinach, celery, parsley, fennel seed, wild salmon oil, atlantic kelp, alfalfa, potassium chloride, amaranth, currants, cranberries, pears, figs, thyme, anise seed, ground cinnamon bark, fenugreek, garlic pieces, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, apples, chicory root, spirulina, choline chloride, lecithin, probiotics: (lactobacillus acidophilus, lactobacillus casei, lactobacillus lactis, bacillus bifidum, streptococcus diacetilactis, bacillus subtillus), taurine, mixed tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), lysine, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, thiamine, methionine, carnitine, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, iodine proteinate, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, folic acid, pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), cobalt proteinate, papain, yucca schidigera extract

The differences are noticeable immediately. While the Elk is not the heaviest ingredient when the water is removed, Salmon is the number one and is an excellent protein source. Millet is a good grain highly nutritious, and sweet potatoes are a healthier carbohydrate than most. The elk is a good meat and rare enough in foods that it might help with a dog with allergies. Oats are fine, and flaxseed helps digestion and is an essential fatty acid. It should also be noted it does not have any stool hardeners. On a good food the dog should be able to produce great poop on its own. Too much fibre can also cause loose stool resulting in poorer food having more than one stool hardener in it.

So where should you go from here? You can research on the internet or look through some books; there are some great ones on the subject of what is in dog food. If you have never been to a feed store look through your yellow pages. At least go browse, look at some labels up close and personal. You may find some decent brands in your local Petco, but you need to know your labels to decipher the good, the bad, and the ugly. Also, there are a few brands that make holistic great quality food, and a second line of mediocre food like we have just talked about. They can be sneaky about it, and I do not like the idea of the cheap food and the good food by one brand, but just keep an eye out for it. It is not all equal.

[springermom]

Rating Your Current Kibble~
Want to rate your dog’s current food? This kibble rating system has been sent around some. The original author is Fredalina and I hear she would like to make some changes to it, but as it stands now it easily can show good from bad. Although I would love to see a revised edition reflecting higher scores for fewer grains if she finds the time.

How to grade your dog's food:
Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer's rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D
69 = F

This is a list of some foods to give you an idea on how they score. I did not add them up, so if the math is not correct, I was not responsible, though I appreciate having the list to use.

Eagle Pack Holistic: 119 A +
Wellness Super5Mix Chicken: 117 A+
Solid Gold Bison-123 points A+
Eagle Pack Natural: 94 A
Canidae-119 points A+
Natural Balance Duck and Potato-114 points A+
Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed Puppy: 94 A
Timberwolf Organics Lamb and Venison-136 points A+
Innova-117 points A+
Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken-114 points A+
Chicken soup-113 points A+
Flint River Ranch: 92 (non-specific fat source) B
Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice-87 points B
Nutro Natural choice Lamb and Rice-85 points C
Nutro Chicken, Rice, & Oatmeal: 85 (non-specific fat source) C
Eukanuba Large Breed Adult: 83 C
Iams Large Breed: 83 C
Iams Lamb Meal and Rice-74 points D
Science Diet chicken adult maintainance-45 points F
Bil-Jac select-37 points F
Science Diet Large Breed: 68 F
Pro Plan All Breed: 68 F
Pedigree Complete Nutrition: 42 F
Pedigree Adult Complete-14 points F
Ol Roy-9 points F
Purina Beneful- 17 points F


It is now up to you to make a decision on what to do about you and your furry friend and their nutrition. There is another world in home cooked meals, and yet another in raw. But neither subject am I very versed in, so I hope someone else will step up to either challenge. Dog food is a confusing world, but I hope you have read enough to at least get a grip on where to begin.

[pupskersandhutch]

I was just cusious what about IAMS puppy chow is that bad too?

[LabLady101]

Right off the bat, I can tell you that Corn is not always a cheap filler. It is also not the high allergen most people think it is. My FIL's dogs were on Dog Chow, which has corn as the first ingredient. One of the dogs started to be itchy. When he asked someone at Petco what might be causing her to itch, the response he got was a Corn allergy. So, he was ready to jump on the Corn allergy bandwagon too. However, I got him to try Pro Plan (which has Corn in it also, although it's not the first ingredient), and his dog's "allergy" has all but cleared up. It is of my belief that it was the bulk of the Corn in the Dog Chow that was drying out her skin and therefore, making her itchy. But, notice when she was fed a food that was comprised of more meat, the "allergy" cleared up. Therefore, it wasn't a true allergy. I think this is the case with many of those alledged Corn allergies- and not just because of my pesonal experience.

By-products are not "human waste products" and are just as expensive as regular meat. If you don't believe me, ask some one who feeds RAW how much a turkey neck costs compared to turkey meat. The price is about the same when you figure it out per pound. And that is another thing, why is it By-products in kibble are supposedly horrid for your dog, but yet they are perfectly fine to feed a dog on a RAW diet? There really is no difference, so why all the disdain for by-products?

Also, you can get out all the food rating systems you want, but it only tells me one thing- your opinion. I have seen this particular system passed around countless times and I can tell you it will never tell you the best kibble for your individual dog. That you can only find through trial and error.

One more thing, Iams might tell you on the bag to feed 4 cups, but how many people actually need to feed 4 cups of Iams? Please...My dog never ate that much on Iams- even as a puppy. So, that particular point is worthless. I also thnk a lot people forget that Iams is worlds above Dog Chow in ingredients, but yet it's name is uttered with the same disdain. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Lastly, it is entirely some one's opinion what ingredients are of a "higher" quality and what ingredients are of a "lower" quality. It seems it is your opinion that almost all grains, corn, and by-products are of "low" quality. This is fine, but do not presume to pass it along as fact because what you think is not necessarily what's true.

Here's another website worth checking out:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/dogfoods.html

Just MHO,
Darcy

[springermom]

IMO RAW is best. I just don't have the time to feed it, and with a picky eater it's not fun.

The difference between feeding "by products" in a raw diet and kibble is that the "by products" in your raw diet are FRESH. By products in kibble could be anything.

http://rakunna.com/diet.shtml

"The next thing I tell them is that rich smell when you open the bag comes from restaurant grease. This one amazed me. I was working at a restaurant and happened to be out back when they picked up the grease. This huge 200gal tub had been sitting out back for a few weeks in the summer. Every couple of days, when they decided to clean the fryers the grease was dumped into this tub. Sometimes it was closed. Then one evening a guy came in a big red truck. He hooked the grease to a wench and it poured out into this dumpster like truck.

I asked what happened to it. "Oh, we take it and render it. Boil it down and clean it up since it's rancid now. Then we sell it to pet food companies who use it for the fat in the food." Later I found that they also spray it across the finished kibble to cover it in a good taste.

Sounds appetizing. "

[pupskersandhutch]

WOAHHH that's so intense I'm so glad I asked about my puppies dog food.This is my first dog that I have gotten not living with my parents and my other dogs have food that the vet has put them on so I have not had that problem in the past. So since I have gotten my new one I went with IAMS cause that's what my mother said to go with IAMS soo I went with IAMS. I also realized I don't like fillers in my meat too. I only eat meat that is pure such as Boar's head that only use natrual ingredents and not any fillers. I obviously don't want my dog eating that garbage thanks for the heads up on that.

Love Megs!

[Ibizan]

If I found anything to give my dog an allergy in it's food, I'd make sure it was not in anything else I fed. It's not just going to work completely to cut back on something, eventually they can develop the allergy again through continuous feeding of the same thing.

I feed a prey model diet, and my dogs are extremely healthy. I don't like kibble or canned food, because I don't know what is in it, and I wouldn't eat it myself. Unless it's an extremely high quality food, I won't trust it. I know exactly what is going into my dog's food, and I know exactly what went into the things I feed them. My vet even switched her dog's to the diet mine are on.

I don't think it is ENTIRELY someone's pure opinion on high and low quality. There's no debate on the fact that greasy fast food is low quality compared to organic meals. A dog's body can't tolerate everything you put into it, just because they are a dog, and it's food. And not every dog is the same either. It's better to be safe and learn from examples and experience, than sorry because you thought it was a mere bandwagon effect.

[LabLady101]

Originally Posted by Ibizan

If I found anything to give my dog an allergy in it's food, I'd make sure it was not in anything else I fed. It's not just going to work completely to cut back on something, eventually they can develop the allergy again through continuous feeding of the same thing.

But see, there it is, you say it yourself...Reducing the amount of the allergen in the food won't help. However, My FIL's dog didn't have an allergy and changing foods proved it. I wonder how many other dogs out there with "owner-assumed" corn allergies are misdiagnosed? And, since when did Petco employees become veterinarians?? I guess I'll have to ask to see a degree and a liscence next time I'm there...(not to mention it would make a significant cut in my budget to get free veterinary care! )

I feed a prey model diet, and my dogs are extremely healthy. I don't like kibble or canned food, because I don't know what is in it, and I wouldn't eat it myself. Unless it's an extremely high quality food, I won't trust it. I know exactly what is going into my dog's food, and I know exactly what went into the things I feed them. My vet even switched her dog's to the diet mine are on.

Well, of course you wouldn't eat dog kibble yourself! That would make you a dog if you did! LOL I'm glad you've found what works best for your dogs.

However, since you clearly state you don't know what's in the kibble, I'm very confused by this next set of statements...

I don't think it is ENTIRELY someone's pure opinion on high and low quality. There's no debate on the fact that greasy fast food is low quality compared to organic meals. A dog's body can't tolerate everything you put into it, just because they are a dog, and it's food. And not every dog is the same either. It's better to be safe and learn from examples and experience, than sorry because you thought it was a mere bandwagon effect.

Ahh! See this is where the pitfall comes in...you cannot compare dogs to humans because we are totally different species. We have totally different food tolerances and needs. No human could possibly live a long, healthy life on an all-meat diet. We require proper amounts of grains, fruits, and veggies in our diet. A dog- although they too require carbohydrates- could probably live a decent life on an all-meat diet. So comparing fast food to dog food is not an equal comparison.

IT IS indeed entirely someone's opinion about whether an ingredient or a food is high or low quality. What I might think is good quality or low quality is completely different than the next person, and it's also based on different criteria. So, yes, it really is someone's opinion- nothing more, nothing less. Taking someone else's opinion as fact is where the bandwagon starts and the road to learning and researching ends.

And, like I said previously, I'm very confused that you would make these statements when you say above you don't know what's in the kibble. If you don't know what's in the kibble to begin with, how can you say that the quality of ingredients isn't entirely someone's opinion? I'm sorry, but these are the fallicies in your statements...

[LabLady101]

Originally Posted by springermom

IMO RAW is best. I just don't have the time to feed it, and with a picky eater it's not fun.

The difference between feeding "by products" in a raw diet and kibble is that the "by products" in your raw diet are FRESH. By products in kibble could be anything.

Oh, and the the by-products that go into kibble are not fresh before they are ground and put into the kibble?? I think you really should reassess this statement. The by-products that go into kibble are just as good a quality as those that are fed RAW.

And, no, by-products cannot be anything. There are only certain things they can be by law. They cannot contain feathers, horns, hooves, etc. Maybe you should look at a definition of by-products to refresh yourself.

I don't know how many times I have repeated that by-products are not the horrid things that they have been made out to be. This all part of the misinformation that is floating around the internet that everyone is taking as fact.

"The next thing I tell them is that rich smell when you open the bag comes from restaurant grease. This one amazed me. I was working at a restaurant and happened to be out back when they picked up the grease. This huge 200gal tub had been sitting out back for a few weeks in the summer. Every couple of days, when they decided to clean the fryers the grease was dumped into this tub. Sometimes it was closed. Then one evening a guy came in a big red truck. He hooked the grease to a wench and it poured out into this dumpster like truck.

I asked what happened to it. "Oh, we take it and render it. Boil it down and clean it up since it's rancid now. Then we sell it to pet food companies who use it for the fat in the food." Later I found that they also spray it across the finished kibble to cover it in a good taste.

This is anything but true. Someone may have said it, but it doesn't make it true. There is no kibble out there- even the very low quality ones- that use restaurant grease. They cannot by law do that as it is not within proper manufacturing practices.

I onced opened a bag of Pro Plan Puppy that smelt like fish. I suppose you would tell me that it was from the oil in vats used to fry fish- which is rediculous. It smelt like fish because it has fish meal in it, as does any food that has any kind of fish in it. You cannot escape it. The food will smell like something. Just because it's not a smell we prefer, does not mean that it has "rancid" restaurant grease sprayed all over it. This is a rediculous claim if I ever heard one! But, what's sad is there will be many who will take this little "story" of yours and believe it as fact without investigating for themselves.

Not to mention there are holes in that "story". I don't know about you, but every restaurant I have been to uses Canola, Vegetable, or Peanut Oil- not lard. Now, what are the fat sources listed in dog food? Animal Fat!!

[LabLady101]

Originally Posted by pupskersandhutch

WOAHHH that's so intense I'm so glad I asked about my puppies dog food.This is my first dog that I have gotten not living with my parents and my other dogs have food that the vet has put them on so I have not had that problem in the past. So since I have gotten my new one I went with IAMS cause that's what my mother said to go with IAMS soo I went with IAMS. I also realized I don't like fillers in my meat too. I only eat meat that is pure such as Boar's head that only use natrual ingredents and not any fillers. I obviously don't want my dog eating that garbage thanks for the heads up on that.

Love Megs!

No, Iams is not garbage IMHO. If your pup is doing well on it, there is no reason to switch- especially since puppies' stomachs are very sensitive. I would not be "guilted" into switching because of misinformation and the push to feed a more expensive product. However, if your pup is truly not doing well, please do switch. But, do not base your decision on others' opinions. You need to base your decision on your dog and nothing else.

Darcy

[springermom]

Iams is garbage. Do the research. Look at the ingredients.

[LabLady101]

Originally Posted by springermom

Iams is garbage. Do the research. Look at the ingredients.

I have done the research and can find nothing in Iams that is any worse than any other food. Yes, it has corn. Yes, it has by-products. These are not the horrible things people think they are. Maybe YOU should do the research!

[springermom]

I don't knowingly feed my dogs low quality food. I don't need to research, I've done that, extensively.

Companies like Iams, Purina, etc. are out to make money. Thats why you see the funny commercials and the beautiful bags. In order to make up for that advertising they have to put lower quality ingredients into the food. They NEVER use organic ingredients, they ALWAYS use fillers, etc. And the whole "puppy formula" thing is a scam in itself.

Iams® Lamb Meal & Rice Formula
Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Fish Oil (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Monosodium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract

Corn meal & corn grits, brewers rice (the lowest quality of rice), grain, and barley.... thats a heck of alot of grains and carbs you dog DOESNT NEED. Where does it go? Poop. Lamb meal, that's not bad. I'll give them that one. Natural chicken flavor, what the heck is that? Dried egg product? Another what the heck. How about fresh eggs from pheasant or quail? Salt? Just plain old iodine filled salt? Why not sea salt? Brewers yeast - again, anything brewers is low quality and for alot of breeds yeast = yeast ear infections. Gross!!!!

I'll compare it to my current food.

Timberwolf Organics Wilderness Elk and Salmon™ Canid Formula
Ingredients:

Fresh Elk, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

Notice all the fresh vegetable sources? With Fresh elk & salmon meal being the first ingredients? Dogs are not vegetarians remember, the bulk of the diet should be meat not corn.

If you can knowingly feed purina or whatever it is you feed, great for you. I prefer to give my dogs something healthier since they can't chose for themselves.

[all4thedogs]

Another thing that is commonly misunderstood, is that foods list the ingredients in order of the amount that is in the food. BUT, if they ingredient is repeated (even in different forms) there is a good possibility that ingredient would be much further up the list. For example Iams has corn listed 2 times, in the first 5 ingredients. This means there is really a LARGE amount of corn in this food. Maybe even more then the Lamb. This goes the same for all ingredients, not just corn. Rice is often broken down into different types too. Personally if an ingredient is going to be repeated, I want to see it in a form of protien (Chicken, Chicken Meal).

[LabLady101]

Originally Posted by springermom

I don't knowingly feed my dogs low quality food. I don't need to research, I've done that, extensively.

Companies like Iams, Purina, etc. are out to make money. Thats why you see the funny commercials and the beautiful bags. In order to make up for that advertising they have to put lower quality ingredients into the food. They NEVER use organic ingredients, they ALWAYS use fillers, etc. And the whole "puppy formula" thing is a scam in itself.

Iams® Lamb Meal & Rice Formula
Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Fish Oil (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Monosodium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract

Corn meal & corn grits, brewers rice (the lowest quality of rice), grain, and barley.... thats a heck of alot of grains and carbs you dog DOESNT NEED. Where does it go? Poop. Lamb meal, that's not bad. I'll give them that one. Natural chicken flavor, what the heck is that? Dried egg product? Another what the heck. How about fresh eggs from pheasant or quail? Salt? Just plain old iodine filled salt? Why not sea salt? Brewers yeast - again, anything brewers is low quality and for alot of breeds yeast = yeast ear infections. Gross!!!!

I'll compare it to my current food.

Timberwolf Organics Wilderness Elk and Salmon™ Canid Formula
Ingredients:

Fresh Elk, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

Notice all the fresh vegetable sources? With Fresh elk & salmon meal being the first ingredients? Dogs are not vegetarians remember, the bulk of the diet should be meat not corn.

If you can knowingly feed purina or whatever it is you feed, great for you. I prefer to give my dogs something healthier since they can't chose for themselves.

See that is exactly the kind of thing I mean. It is entirely YOUR OPINION that Purina and Iams are low quality foods and not healthy- nothing more, nothing less! You cannot push your opinion as fact because it is not. No, Purina and Iams are not out just to make money. If I buy a bag of Pro Plan on sale and then get it at a bulk discount on top of that, I actually get it for less than cost. How does a company make all this money your talking about like that? I suppose you would say they make up for it by using "lower" quality ingredients. However, I hate to burst your little bubble, but they get the same quality ingredients from the same places as the "higher" quality companies.

Also, if you are against advertising, you may want to rethink what your saying about Purina and Iams being so horrible because they advertise. Guess what?! I have recently seen ads for Solid Gold, Eagle Pack, and various other "higher" quality brands as well plastered all over magazines. And let's not forget Nutro who almost always gets a full page ad or two in Dog Fancy and Dog World as well as the AKC Family Dog and Gazette!!! So, the old advertising excuse for hating Purina and Iams is no longer valid! If you dislike brands that advertise, you might as well start switching your dogs from the "higher" quality brands as well because they've gotten on the advertising bandwagon too!

[Curbside Prophet]

I think this thread illustates exactly why you can't and shouldn't rely on anyone's opinion about what you should feed your dog. The best advice, for your own peace of mind is, to do your own research, and contact the manufacturer of the brands you are looking at. Base your decision on what you personally believe is best for your dog based and the research that you gather. It's nice that others have studied what is and what is not good in dog food, but after it is all said and done, the only opinion that matters is your own. So don't be afraid to call a manufacturer, or speak to multiple vets, or numerous reputable breeders to form your own op