[Anela]

I've noticed lost of folks who insist on feeding their dogs a RAW diet.

I'm curious (because I don't) what the deal is with this. Is it because the humans think it is best for the dog, or are they just doing it just to stoke their ego. If there is a concern about the food poison problem, there are prescription foods that are never effected by this.

I've consulted with numerous vets and done tons of research on the subject, and from what I understand, it just does not make sense to do the raw thing. The nutritional needs of dogs is extremely complex, and it seems that there is the potential for more harm than good.

A recent post indicated that it was "natural" for a dog to throw up for at least two weeks after initially starting the raw diet. This makes no sense to me at all. I would never put my dogs through this.

Just curious.

Anela

[Wimble Woof]

Is it because the humans think it is best for the dog, or are they just doing it just to stoke their ego. If there is a concern about the food poison problem, there are prescription foods that are never effected by this.

Yes I do think its best for the dogs, and no its not an "ego" thing... Its natural. And prescription foods are a lark anyways, there are much easier and cheaper ways to accomadate your dogs special needs ( even with out raw) than foolishly throwing your money away on prescription foods.

I've consulted with numerous vets and done tons of research on the subject, and from what I understand, it just does not make sense to do the raw thing.

Well please send out a memo to mother nature, let her know all the wild animals are doing things wrong according to vets... who by the way are trained for medical not nutritional professions.

The nutritional needs of dogs is extremely complex, and it seems that there is the potential for more harm than good.

Not overly no... its not that complex, if you focus on BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE for every meal, well yes, then its complex, but there is only potential for more harm than good if you are feeding "willy nilly" with no actual research done.

A recent post indicated that it was "natural" for a dog to throw up for at least two weeks after initially starting the raw diet. This makes no sense to me at all. I would never put my dogs through this.

LOL, not throwing up, Purging... bringing it up and trying it again, now while for some dogs this is what they do... many dont. only one of mine has purged maybe a handfull of times, and not just in the begining. IF she takes in something that is too large ( doesnt shred properly) she regurgitates it and eats it up right away.

Now while I have no issues with people asking questions about raw, and taking the time to answer them, I honestly dont see the purpose of your post??? what so ever.
Please tell me this isnt another "bash" at raw for something to do?
You have your opinions on it and I have mine. Thats fine. No need to attempt to prove something to those of us who already feed it with no issues, and no one is forcing you to feed it.
If you dont like the idea, thats fine, its your call with your dogs.
I like it and its my call with mine.

[cityDog]

Originally Posted by Anela

I've consulted with numerous vets and done tons of research on the subject, and from what I understand, it just does not make sense to do the raw thing.

It does not make sense to feed a carnivore, a subspecies of wolf, raw meat? A little more research is in order. Consider sources that do not have a vested interest in you continuing to use commercial foods.

The nutritional needs of dogs is extremely complex

Not so complex. In my native country, dog food is a specialty item. 99% of pet dogs manage to exist & reproduce on a homemade concoction of corn meal, raw trimmings, and leftovers. Though the recipe may vary, this applies in many parts of the world.

[Anela]

I stated in the post that it might be a ego stoking thing to feed raw.

After your post, I stand by that statement.

Anela

[cityDog]

Originally Posted by Anela

I stated in the post that it might be a ego stoking thing to feed raw.

After your post, I stand by that statement.

Anela

And you started this thread to stir the pot. I'm not so against commercial food that I would start a thread to bash it.

[RonE]

Anela, everyone here is entitled to their opinion, so I guess you could say that it's your opinion that people who feed raw are stroking their own egos.

It's my opinion that your statement makes no sense at all and that you are mostly looking for controversy.

I don't feed raw, BTW, but I will not dismiss anything practiced by so many dog owners that I respect. ( I have a considerable ego. If I thought it could be enhanced by feeding raw, I might consider it.)

[BostonBull]

On the subject of dog food kibble; where are you getting your info from? Are you a vet? ALL vets school's are sponsored by the BIG dog food Co's. So any vet who only goes to school and then does no continuing education on their own has a lopsided view of the food world. most of the dog foods out there are filled with complete junk that dogs cant use anyways!

BARF is how dogs eat in the wild i.e. wolves. So how do you explain Wolves living for 20-30 years and when we feed our dogs kibble we are lucky to get 10-12 years from them?

Check out this link, and you'll get an unbiased look at whats IN dog kibble, and how it effects our dogs.

www.Dogfoodanalysis.com

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by BostonBull

BARF is how dogs eat in the wild i.e. wolves. So how do you explain Wolves living for 20-30 years and when we feed our dogs kibble we are lucky to get 10-12 years from them?

BARF is not how dogs eat in the wild. For one, dogs aren't wolves, and two, they aren't wild...they are domesticated animals. Domesticated dogs in the wild would eat what's available in the niche. BARF is merely one person's model of how a dog should eat based on one person's study. It's hardly conclusive or a perfect model. Do some animals benefit from BARF, yes. Do some animals benefit from kibble, yes. What does this mean? It means a dog's dietary needs are individual. We can't throw a blanket of BARF or a blanket of kibble over our dog and assume it's best for all dogs. This seams to be what people want to do when discussing their food of choice. However, in doing so, you must also recognize your evidence is purely anecdotal.

[BostonBull]

I could be going out on a limb here, but kibble has been around a short amount of time, compare to domesticated dogs.

BARF is more than ONE persons research, or even ONE co. university etc research.

Dogs stomachs and digestive tracks differ very little if AT ALL from those of Wolves.........

Some kibble is made far superior than most. Dogs/Wolves (yes there are wild dogs out there) DO NOT eat fruits and veggies in the wild, nor do yo see them grazing on grains.

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

BARF is not how dogs eat in the wild. For one, dogs aren't wolves,

No they are not wolves... they are dogs, however, they are pretty much the same other than what they use their energy on... thats the main difference I can think of besides domesticated or not.

BARF is merely one person's model of how a dog should eat based on one person's study. It's hardly conclusive or a perfect model. Do some animals benefit from BARF, yes. Do some animals benefit from kibble, yes. What does this mean? It means a dog's dietary needs are individual. We can't throw a blanket of BARF or a blanket of kibble over our dog and assume it's best for all dogs. This seams to be what people want to do when discussing their food of choice. However, in doing so, you must also recognize your evidence is purely anecdotal.

I agree here. 100%
BARF is in no way what canines in the wild eat, they eat what we call " prey model" no one is adding in veggies in perfect ratio for wild animals, they are getting that from the stomach contents of their prey.

Other than this thread turning into the usual battle ground for raw vs kibble, I see no point to it. Other than expressing how raw feeders have "ego issues" and you know what... fine, I can deal with that form of "name calling" if you will.
However, I place my bet on this thread getting out of control by page 2... both me and my ego will put money on it.

[RonE]

Wolves eat what they eat because they have no choice. They can't go into Pet Supplies Plus every two weeks, plunk down the debit card and buy a 40# bag of canidae - even if they wanted to.

They also are not vaccinated, spayed or neutered or dewormed.

Honestly, the frequent comparisons that we hear regarding wolves and labradoodles is just another bit of silliness.

[Wimble Woof]

Honestly, the frequent comparisons that we hear regarding wolves and labradoodles is just another bit of silliness.

How do you figure? Please enlighten me as to the biologic difference between a wolf and a dog Ron. In my opinion, what is "silliness" is saying they are not alike.
Besides wolves have to hunt, dogs get served... ( a luxury, im sure if a dog had to... it would hunt)
Besides wolves dont get spayed vaccinated or medical attention... its natural selection, the survival of the fittest, perhaps a good reason you dont see many wolves hobbling around with joint problems.
Either way, those are not biological differences.
I'm talking digestive, structural, therefore biological... whats the difference between the 2?
I am dying to know.

[whimsy]

Why the controversy?? If you prefer kibble feed kibble.If you prefer raw, feed raw.
I have been feeding raw for several yrs and it works for me. Is it more trouble...yes, a bit, because I go the extra mile to make sure the meal is balanced. Is it more expensive? No, far cheaper as you can pick up what your butcher throws out and it's free. During hunting season mine get fed venison and they thrive on it. The bonus for me is no vet bills. Where I used to spend at least $2,000/yr on vets, it costs me nil since my dogs are never sick....which proves raw works for my dogs. I also don't get my dogs vaccinated anymore, the problems were too numerous.
Whatever works for the individual should be the guide to feeding our dogs.

[briteday]

Ego? Whatever you want to call it... I know exactly what I feed my human family, cooking from scratch every day and organic when indicated and available. My dogs deserve the same treatment. As a scientist I find it somewhat coincidental that many health problems in dogs started about the same time we developed commercial kibble diets for them. One could argue that technology improved enough to diagnose these things. But for me it is the argument that I know what my family, dogs and humans, are eating.

Difficult...no, did the research, figured out the necessary nutritional requirements and the foods that provide it, created a menu, and stick to it on a monthly basis. Balance over time is what I strive for. And my dogs seem to enjoy the variety of food every day.

Cost...less than premium kibble if you find the resources. Butchers pay to have scraps hauled off, too messy looking for human consumption. Friends butcher livestock and have parts they wouldn't eat or have too much of. Groceries have incredible markdowns on soon-to-be-outdated meats that are fine if frozen right away.

Purging...it takes dogs a few weeks to re-build the digestive enzymes required for processing raw food vs. kibble. My dogs vomited a few times in the first few weeks, but not since.

Complex...sue me, I'm a biochemist and it was a piece of cake. However, not because of my education but because so many dog owners have done this for so long and the information is right in front of your eyes. No need to become a biochemist, just read the information, decide where your opinions fall, and develop a plan.

I would never have thought of raw feeding until one of our dogs had battled food allergies for more than 5 years. At my wit's end a new vet (just out of school and trained at a facility that does not accept funds from animal product manufacturers) suggested a raw diet. I started the diet with the allergic dog and saw such an improvement in her that I continued it with the other dogs. In the meanwhile I discovered just how many people are feeding raw diets to their dogs. It's amazing to me when we attend dog shows and training events how many breeders and owners are feeding raw.

It seems to me that among people showing dogs (conformation or performance), that there are three types of foods being fed. First is the Purina stuff along with grocery brands. I can't bash Purina because they have a plant in our town and provide our shelter dogs plenty of food, dogs that otherwise would go hungry, due to the non-profit budget limitations. The next category are the mid-range to high quality kibble feeders. Many of these folks are now moving towards the grain-free alternatives since enough of their dogs have developed grain allergies. And then there are the raw feeders. Many breeders will not sell pups unless the future owner agrees to continue raw feeding.

In the end, the best solution is what works for your individual dog.

[OC_Spirit]

I'm no extremist on ones side or another. I feed a combination of raw and kibble. I dont feed 1005 kibble because I see the benefits of raw. I dont feed 100% raw because I dont feel I am educated enough to provide the balanced diet my dogs need as working sled dogs. The raw is the supplement for the extra work they do. My guys have never looked better since having added the dailey raw meat. Their meals are about 80-90% protein/fat. For some dogs this wouldnt work at all, the protein would be too high. But for my guys, its perfect! They need the extra to excel at what they do!

Did you know, Canadian Eskimo Dogs can not do well on kibble? They are still such a rustic breed that their digestive systems just cant handle the kibble properly to make it any good for them. To be their best they actually need to be fed 100% raw meat (with some tripe for veggie content).

Just by looking at a dog's teeth one can see that they are designed to be meat eaters. And only humans have developed the ability to cook food so naturally raw is for them. BTW, when given the option Ronan chooses hunting VS kibble. His old owners used to take him camping and he would be tied on a 20-30ft rope. He always caught rabbits and chipmunks and would consume them. They would have kibble available to him in the tent but he would never eat even a single piece of it. He just ate rodents instead. This is partially due to hunting being fun for him too. Dogs are opportunistic eaters. If left to survive on their own they will look for free meals before hunting (generally). If a feral dog was offered a bowl of 80% dark chocolate or a healthy rabbit he would probably make a half attempt at the rabbit, then when it got away go for the chocolate. We all know dark chocolate is death to dogs but this just shows how they dont know what is "good or bad" for them, but rather take the easy meals.

[digits mama]

I have done research on the raw diet too..Very closed minded such as OP. As I started researching and talking to my own vet I found that raw is a very good regimen. You have to step out of the box and see things from lots of angles before you make a judgement. I dont feed my dogs raw. But I got a biggo ego.

But I sure dont have a shallow mind or Point fingers and make false assumptions for shyts and giggles. Stereotyping for your own world is fine but you are trying to stink up the place.

I am praying this thread is closed soon.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Wimble Woof

How do you figure? Please enlighten me as to the biologic difference between a wolf and a dog Ron. In my opinion, what is "silliness" is saying they are not alike.

I agree, lets forget about the biological pressures of evolution, artificial selection, and domestication. I'm going out to research what chimpanzees eat, as that would be, by this logic, the healthiest for me, no?

Perhaps Ron wasn't far off to recommend blueberries for everyone.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I agree, lets forget about the biological pressures of evolution, artificial selection, and domestication. I'm going out to research what chimpanzees eat, as that would be, by this logic, the healthiest for me, no?

Perhaps Ron wasn't far off to recommend blueberries for everyone.

I was eating a banana when you said this. Boy, did I feel primitive.

[nlkeple]

I know that lots of people have vets who like to push a specific food (that they sell) but my vet doesn't sell food, so I trust his recommendations to be less biased because he won't profit from my food choice. When we got Lady I asked him what he thought about kibble, Raw, or if he had any better ideas. He said that for lots of dogs raw works and the dogs do good. He said if I wanted to go that route to let him know and he could point me in the direction of some books. I did have some concerns about truly being able to do it well because my life is on the full side and he said that usually for most people he recommends kibble because it is easier to do it right (all you have to do is measure the right serving size), but that Raw was not bad or hard just not quite as convenient. He also said that if I wanted to do the kibble route that I should go talk with the man at the feed store. After talking with him, for a long time (the man is a human encyclopedia) I got a few recommendations and some samples. Eventually I decided to go with Chicken soup. I would love to say it was because of all the good things it has (and it is a good food) but it is sold nearby and cheaper even than Iam's or a similar product. I guess the point is two fold. First of all be nice to the vets they are not all corrupted, money hungry, uncaring, bumbling, idiots, and second be nice to each other. Nobody is making the choices they are making because they are wanting to cause harm to their dogs, for the most part everyone (especially here) are making decision based on what they think is best for their dogs and on a subject like diet which is very individual, results will vary.

Although RonE has given me some things to think about. My 5 year old is going through a Sassy phase so maybe an ego boost would be in order LOL

And I would also like to formally complain about the new blueberries for everyone plan because I like blackberries, and what will I do with the blackberries that grow in my back yard if blueberries are what we all have to eat now?

[poodleholic]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've noticed lost of folks who insist on feeding their dogs a RAW diet.

I'm curious (because I don't) what the deal is with this. Is it because the humans think it is best for the dog, or are they just doing it just to stoke their ego.

This statement has me wondering just whose ego is really involved here.

Everyone is entitled to make their own decision about what to feed their dog(s). I don't feed raw, although I do give raw meaty bones to chew. I prefer EVO, but do not feel that everyone should do as I do, or, that they're misguided by feeding raw. I am willing to share that my dogs do very well on what I feed them, and, that I supplement the EVO with fresh meats and poultry, and many other food items, but certainly don't feel that everyone should, or that they aren't doing right by their dog(s) if they don't.

Offering information in the spirit of education about alternatives is a good thing. Making judgemental comments about the values and beliefs of others doesn't make them receptive to considering an alternative, or questioning what they are currently doing.