[sweetardnas1885]

Hi there,

I have been doing some research lately, mostly on the internet, concerning raw feeding and the whole BARF diet. It appeals to me because I like the idea of being able to feed organically and with choosing my own "ingredients" with BARF I can do this with my dogs as well as in my family. I come across problems, however, in learning the reasoning behind raw feeding and which meats and supplements to use and to avoid. I'd really like to hear any and everyones experiences with raw feeding, their menus, health concerns and that of their dogs. My big fear is that I will cause more harm to my dogs than good by getting all of the nutrients wrong. Also does anyone have any info on raising puppies on raw feeding. I'm scared to get the calcium and phosphorus levels wrong, as I've seen when improper Cal and phos can do to a growing puppy's bones (deformities araise with too much calcium and not enough phosphorus). Please help to ease my mind, as this is something I'd really like to try in the future. Thanks for your help!

[borzoimom]

Chicken meat and cartiledge is so balenced that its even prefered. As far as puppies, until 4 months old I would chop the chicken up or run in a processor. We started Zubin at 4 months old with chicken wings or chopped up thighs.
I posted on here an instructional video how to start raw.

[Ginny01OT]

I use a "prepared" raw food. Nature's Variety prairie raw patties. I alternate between the rabbit, lamb, venison and organic chicken/chicken

www.naturesvariety.com

It is a little costly but my dog is truly thriving on it so I don't mind paying extra for what I consider an extremely supreme food. I also get the beef/tripe mix and the beef/liver mix from

www.martinsk9formula.com

I alternate that into the nature's variety food so Riley has quite a menu.

Additionally, Riley gets raw meaty bones, either nature's variety or from martins. I bought a small freezer and keep it in the basement--I keep all his food in there (it comes in handy around the holidays too)

Lastly, about 5 or 6 nights a week Riley gets a half can of lamb Tripett Tripett.com as a supplement, it has chondroitin, glucosamine and menhaden fish oil in it.

In a working, busy household like mine, the convenience of these foods, without sacrificing quality, is worth it all.

[sweetardnas1885]

Originally Posted by borzoimom

Chicken meat and cartiledge is so balenced that its even prefered. As far as puppies, until 4 months old I would chop the chicken up or run in a processor. We started Zubin at 4 months old with chicken wings or chopped up thighs.
I posted on here an instructional video how to start raw.

Thanks to both of you for your information! Borzoimom, where can I see that video? I am very interested. I think this may work out for me. I love to "bargain shop" for our steaks and such, adding the dog's food to the list would present a challenge. We are moving in about 3 weeks to Ft. Wayne, Indiana, and I have found a few local butchers/meat markets where I may be able to find some deals. What vegetables do you use? Canned, frozen, or fresh? Should all of my meats be frozen before feeding them to the dogs? Please keep the info coming! Thanks again!

[borzoimom]

Here you go.. Its two videos. http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-...structual.html (Feeding raw- two instructual videos)

[skelaki]

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm This link has answers to many of the questions you may have in starting and feeding raw.

[luv4gsds]

There are some really great books out that have a lot of information about raw feeding.

* Optimal Nutrition
* Raw Meaty Bones
* Work Wonders
* The BARF Diet
* Raw Food Recipes
* Raw Dog Food
* Canine Nutrition

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0035/UNP-0035.pdf

Just remember no two dogs are a like, what works for one may not work for the other.

Ca:P ratio should be in the rang of 1:1 to 2:1.

Meats
I feed *chicken (backs, thighs, necks, wings, leg quaters, heads and giblets), *whole rabbit, *deer (ribs, ground, gullet, shank, and head), *beef (ribs, ground, brisket, shank, lips, tongue, liver, lungs, green tripe, heart, tail, and gullet), *pork (ribs, ground, tail, feets, jowls, shank, tongue, heart, ears, and lungs) and *whole fish.

Veggies
I feed collard greens, mustard greens, brussels sprouts, zucchini, yellow squash, carrots, celery, green beans, peas, and sweet potato.

Fruits
I feed apples, cantaloupe, watermelon, figs, bananas, blackberries and strawberries.

Supplements
Bee Pollen, Canine Red Cell and Linatone Plus

I also add whole eggs into the diet.

When some of my adult dogs were pups (8 weeks) I started them off on ground chicken necks adding just a few veggies, fruits, eggs, organ meats, and yogurt to their diet.

Here is a website that might help you out http://presagirls.tripod.com/id14.html

[briteday]

http://www.boneapetit.ca/feedchart.html
http://www.switchingtoraw.com/
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/nutrition.html

These are a few of the sites I like for raw feeding.

Menu...
My dogs get two meals daily. One is always bony poultry (what parts you choose depends on the size of the dog). And the other meal of the day is usually boneless meat or meat on a bone that they can use recreationally later. Of those 7 meals they consist of 1 fish, 1 liver, 2 organ, and 3 meat. Some dogs cannot tolerate a whole meal of liver and/or organs. So you can add a bit daily to a meat meal instead. I only supplement with fish oil. And I don't give vegetables other than a spoonful of canned pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling, just pumpkin) for bowel regularity and a bit of parsley if they seem to be grazing a lot of grass. Parsley is also a good source of vitamin C.

If you are feeding a variety of food once you get going, then the normal needs are met. Most of us aren't too concerned after we see the improvement in our dogs over the first month or two. If you are worried there are vitamin supplements on the market.

Initially most of us start with just poultry as a single protein source. The dog's gut needs to adjust to the different digestive enzymes that they need to digest raw versus kibble (cooked) food. So the first few weeks is a good thing to stay on only one protein source (poultry is cheap and easily available in the grocery store) until the dog has acclimated to raw. You will know by watching the stools. If they are white then there is too much bone and you need to give more meat. If they are runny then give more bone. This little telltale sign gives you most of what you need to know about cal/phos ratios for your dog.

Once your dogs are doing well on one protein source then you can slowly introduce a new protein source every few weeks to supplement the poultry. Eventually you will work all the way up to many protein sources and can really get the shopping/budget in good shape by stocking up on sales. I stock up on beef ribs during the summer grilling season. I can get pork really cheap in the winter. Turkeys go on sale over the holidays. A local organic butcher sells me liver and other innards that are not normally sold retail.

Health...I had one dog that gained huge amounts of weight on kibble. And we tried them all because she also had horrible allergy issues with food. After 5 years of messing around the vet suggested raw and she has never been better. She is more playful and energetic. And all the licking and biting her feet has stopped. Our other dog could walk past kibble 3-4 meals at a time and now tries to lick the stainless off the steel bowl! She even pushes it around the kitchen in hopes of getting more. She just had her annual vet visit this morning and she is doing great.

Puppies...I've not had that experience in my short time (since March) of feeding a puppy raw. But others around here have and I'm sure they'll chime in.

Concerns...pork, I freeze for 30 days before serving since there have been some rare cases of trichinosis from US pork in the last few year. Chicken and any other meat...bacteria, use good hygiene, don't be portioning out dog food while cooking for humans. I get my big shopping done and while everyone is in another room watching tv I spread out in the itchen and portion things out in daily/weekly packages. Then I put all the portioned dog food in a box on a designated shelf in the freezer. Then I bleach the counters and thoroughly wipe everything down. Any utensils or bowls go right into the dishwasher and towels go into a hot/bleach cycle in the wash. Finally wash your hands really good after handling raw food, soapy water for a good long time, think scrubbing in for surgery! My dogs eat outside as tearing apart meat is a bit messy. So I hose down the patio every few days and put the bowls thru the dishwasher every night.

Hope this helps!

[sweetardnas1885]

All of this info is becoming so helpful. I have book marked this thread and will refer to it often. Is there some raw feeder's support group that one can become a member of? I suppose we can all just use Dog Forums for that though. I have chosen not to start Cody and Pea on raw, instead I will wait until I get my husky puppy. This is due mainly to the fact that I would have such a hard time convincing my Christopher that it is better for them. I'm thinking that once I get the puppy, and Chris sees how good he/she is doing he will agree to it for Cody and Pea. Does anyone have any input about this? Would I do better to start feeding them raw after their kibble runs out? How should/could I convince my Christopher? I am also a vet tech. i took a nutrition coarse in college, however, it was taught by Hill's and I will NEVER feed my dogs that food. I hate Hill's with a passion, although I admit that some of their research has been okay. I would love to get a veterinarian's opinion on the raw diet, however, I know that many are not open to the idea. If there are any raw-friendly vets out there, please respond. This too would ease my worries. However, I find that many of you, my new friends, are more knowledeable about this topic than most vets and I completely trust your inputs. Thanks again for your help. Oh, Borzoimom, the videos are very helpful. Please keep your knowledge coming!

[briteday]

There are some raw feeding groups on Yahoo but I didn't find them as helpful as I thought I would.

I just saw our vet this morning for an annual exam with our 2 year old dog. She was the vet who suggested that we think about raw or other alternatives (home cooked, prepared raw, etc) for our older dog that has multiple food allergies. I took both dogs in today, one for the exam and the older one for a weigh in. The vet just raved about how glossy their coats were and how much better the older dog is doing. Their teeth are great and they have more energy. All good and we thanked her profusely for introducing us to raw. Now, she is not too long out of vet school, maybe 5 years or so. So she is pretty up to date on the new vaccination stuff and alternatives to commercially prepared food. She is rather opinionated though about dogs being carnivores, so minimal grain, veggies, and fruit if you choose to include that. She considers them empty calories. And she does like a good variety of meats in the diet as well as multiple organ sources to cover all the nutrients, as many innards as you feel comfortable with feeding.

Personally, I think it would be easier to start feeding raw to the older dogs first. I would finish up the kibble (waste not, want not!) and in the meanwhile watch for the sales on poultry. It looks like you have large breeds so you could go for whole chickens (sometimes the store butcher will quarter them for you, otherwise buy yourself a good cleaver) , quarters, and check out a local ethnic store or a butcher for necks.

Figure on 2-3%/day for the adult dogs divided into 2 meals. That will give you an idea of how much you will need to be buying. Then use the "feel for ribs" test to see if they are getting too thin or fat on raw. If you can feel ribs easily then increase rations. If there is too much fat on those ribs, decrease the rations a bit. You normally won't notice any weight gain until you are well into raw feeding and they are getting a full range of foods. In the beginning there are some picky eating days, not sure what to do with those bony things you're giving them, and a cannon butt day once in a while until they purge from eating kibble.

[Curbside Prophet]

If I may jump onto your thread here sweet as I too am preparing my first BARF recipe, but I have a simple question that I can't seem to find an answer to anywhere. What is the consistency of a typical BARF meal? Is it like a freshly made hamburger patty? Or is it kinda soupy like a stew? Or is it grainy and non-compactable? I would image with egg in it, it would be like a hamburger patty.

[briteday]

My ground meat/bone meals (and I also throw in eggs) are usually the consistency of hamburger meat, maybe a bit softer (mushier).

[Wimble Woof]

Originally Posted by sweetardnas1885

I'd really like to hear any and everyones experiences with raw feeding, their menus, health concerns and that of their dogs. My big fear is that I will cause more harm to my dogs than good by getting all of the nutrients wrong.

Health concerns... I have none honestly.
However this is very valuable information that I feel all raw and grain free feeders should arm themselves with when getting anual blood panels done on your dog. Especially if your vet is less than thrilled with your decision of raw/grain free feeding.
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/doddsnutrition.html

Raw Food Diet Study:
In collaboration with Dr. Susan Wynn, we investigated the basic clinical laboratory parameters of 256 healthy adult dogs of varying ages and breed types being fed raw food diets for at least 9 months. The same laboratory (Antech Diagnostics) analyzed the samples from 227 of the dogs. From this group, there were 87 dogs fed the classical BARF diet of Dr. Ian Billinghurst, 46 dogs were fed the Volhard diet of Wendy Volhard, and the remaining 94 dogs were fed other types of custom raw diets.


There were 69 dog breeds represented, including 233 purebreds, 16 crossbreds, 1 mixed breed and 6 of unknown breed type. The predominant breeds represented included: 28 Labrador Retrievers, 21 Golden Retrievers and 21 German Shepherd Dogs, 10 Whippets, 8 Shetland Sheepdogs and 8 Bernese Mountain Dogs, 6 Rottweilers, 6 Border Collies, 6 Doberman Pinschers, and 6 German Pinschers, and 5 Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, 5 Australian Shepherds, 5 Borzoi, and 5 Great Danes. Most of the dogs were neutered males (73) or spayed females (85), whereas there were 31 intact males and 32 intact females. Another 6 dogs were of unknown sex. The mean age of the group was 5.67 ± 3.52 years (mean ± SD); and the mean length of time fed a raw food diet was 2.84 ± 2.54 years. The data from this group of dogs were compared to the same laboratory parameters measured at Antech Diagnostics from 75 healthy adult dogs fed a commercial cereal-based kibbled diet. Preliminary statistical comparisons of results for the raw and cereal-based diets found them to be essentially the same with the following notable exceptions:


• Higher packed cell volume (hematocrit) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 51.0 ± 6.6 – 53.5 ± 5.6 %) versus cereal-based kibble (47.6 ± 6.1 %).
• Higher blood urea nitrogen (BUN) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 18.8 ± 6.9 – 22.0 ± 8.7 mg/dL) versus cereal-based kibble (15.5 ± 4.7 mg/dL).
• Higher serum creatinine in the Volhard raw diet group only (1.20 ± 0.34 mg/dL) versus cereal-based kibble (1.07 ± 0.28 mg/dL).

While a more detailed analysis of other parameters has yet to be completed, initial results indicate that dogs fed raw meats (natural carnivores) have higher red blood cell and blood urea nitrogen levels than dogs fed cereal-based food (obligate omnivores). Thus, the normal reference values for dogs fed raw food diets should probably be revised.

• Hematocrit (Packed Cell Volume): Gives information regarding the amount of red blood cells present in the total blood volume. High levels may indicate dehydration, although this is more of a concern for dogs being fed a dry diet because they often do not consume sufficient volumes of water with their food. Levels below the norm could mean anemia (result of hemorrhage), presence of parasites, or chronic disease
processes (such as liver disease or cancer). Nutritional deficiencies can also cause low levels. Because dogs fed a raw diet receive more adequate levels of protein from animal sources (including iron and B-vitamins) they are better able to facilitate the growth of red blood cells.


• Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN): BUN is produced in the liver from the breakdown of protein and is filtered from the blood by the kidneys. Low levels are commonly seen with low protein diets (I.e. such as the plant proteins primarily used in dry dog food), insufficiency of the liver and anabolic steroid use. High levels are an indication of conditions that reduce the kidney’s ability to filter body fluids or those that alter the breakdown of protein. Dogs being fed a raw diet have access to animal based protein sources that have a balanced amino acid profile. It makes sense then that they have higher circulating levels of BUN simply because more amino acids available for the liver to use as an energy source. As indicated from results of human testing high BUN values can occur as a result of eating large amounts of protein rich foods.

• Creatinine: A by-product of muscle metabolism that is excreted by the kidneys. High values can indicate kidney disease or urinary obstruction, muscle disease, arthritis, hyperthyroidism and/or diabetes. When we look the results for humans we can see that a diet high in meat content causes transient elevations of serum creatinine. One indication of a normally functioning kidney is consistent creatinine values over time. This reiterates why it is important for raw fed dogs to have a series of results to compare against. Although the values may be on the higher end of normal, if they are consistently in the same range this indicates that kidney function is normal. It is commonly thought that a different set of “normal” values should be developed for raw fed dogs. These slightly higher blood values are to be expected simply because these indicators are a measure of protein breakdown/metabolism and raw fed dogs receive a higher percentage of readily digestible and balanced animal protein in their diets. It may be valuable for your pet to have successive laboratory results from previous years in order to determine what is normal for your dog.

As for feeding puppies, I have no experience with that at all.
However, when I first started with raw, I was scared! I worried that I would really mess my dogs up and not be able to come back from it.
In reality though, no set rule for raw is going to work with every dog. Its a trial and error thing until you get the right "mix" for your dog/s
The best way to know how you are doing with feeding, is to monitor your dog,
losing weight... up the percentage fed.
gaining weight... lower it.
Grey "powder poops" .... feed less bone.
dull fur.... add some fish oils.
and so on.

I dont suppliment with any thing anymore.
I feed prey model raw, meaning they eat what they would if they had killed it... and yes this does from time to time mean fur.
I try to follow the basic "design" of animal anatomy when creating "franken animals" to fit to the prey model diet.
IMO, its the easiest to follow, and makes the most sence. However that is my opinion, Ginny is a firm Natures variety feeder and thats wonderful,
Many others are firm on BARF... and feeding veggies and cereals, and that too is wonderful.
The thing is, as long as your dog is getting fresh meat, bone, offal ect... your a giant leap from kibble already.
No 2 raw feeders feed the same way. And just be open to what each of them offers you in the form of advice. its all very educated and valuable information.

[luv4gsds]

Is there some raw feeder's support group that one can become a member of?

Carolina Raw Feeders
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/C...guid=197710285

QueenCityBARF · Charlotte, NC
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Q...guid=197710285

Would I do better to start feeding them raw after their kibble runs out?

You can feed them raw while you feed them kibble, but not in the same meal. You can start them on the raw diet after the kibble has ran out. Be prepared because some dogs will get loose stool when switching at first.

How should/could I convince my Christopher?

Reading about the raw diet is the first step in convincing him. Why doesn't he approve of the raw diet, If you don't mind me asking?

What part of SC are you at?

What is the consistency of a typical BARF meal? Is it like a freshly made hamburger patty? Or is it kinda soupy like a stew? Or is it grainy and non-compactable?

CP
If you are going to grind the meat and bone it would look like hamburger. Some BARF feeders will add the whole egg (the shell should be grinded) in with the veggie slop.

[Ginny01OT]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

If I may jump onto your thread here sweet as I too am preparing my first BARF recipe, but I have a simple question that I can't seem to find an answer to anywhere. What is the consistency of a typical BARF meal? Is it like a freshly made hamburger patty? Or is it kinda soupy like a stew? Or is it grainy and non-compactable? I would image with egg in it, it would be like a hamburger patty.

Mine is the consistency of a hamburger patty and then I just moosh it down a little with a fork

[sweetardnas1885]

Originally Posted by luv4gsds

Reading about the raw diet is the first step in convincing him. Why doesn't he approve of the raw diet, If you don't mind me asking?

What part of SC are you at?

Actually he really doesn't disapprove, surprisingly. He is a man that likes things they way they are, sort of set in his ways. I thought it was going to be very difficult to convince him. However, after writing that portion of the thread, I casually (and somewhat jokingly considering I thought I was going to get a flat 'no') said, "Hey Chris, I think once we start getting low on their kibble, I'm going to try Cody and Pea on raw. What do you think?" He said "Sure, I don't care." So it really wasn't hard at all. Now the truth will come out when we actually start the raw. Anyhow, as for your other question, we are in the Summerville/Charleston area, however, we are moving up to Indiana by mid September (hopefully). It is way too hot here for me anymore (and I'm a native), my job doesn't pay well here either. I want to move to a place where snow at Christmas is not so farfetched. Our current Husky, Cody, will like it a lot better while our dachshund, Sweet Pea, may have a time adjusting. It is a life style change for us. In Indiana, we will be able to buy a nicer house than we own now, and some land at a better price than what you can get it for here in SC.

To Curbside:

You are more than welcome to post non this thread, you question actually helped get that one answered for me.

To Wimble:

That info about Bloodwork values and raw feeding is interesting. It makes a lot of sense, now that I think of it though!
To Ginny:

I like the idea of the frozen raw and freeze-dried raw foods. That may be something I look into if making the meals from scratch prove to be too time consuming and for trips or when they stay with a sitter. I think some dog sitters would be a little apprehensive about feeding raw unless they had been exposed prior to the fact.

Everyone has been so very helpful. Please keep the info flowing. If anyone else has any raw questions to ask, please post them here if you so desire...It may answer some of my subconscience questions. Thanks again to all!