[Ry-Guy]

I recently found out how bad alot of store bought brands of dogfood are for your dog. I changed my dog over to the Chicken Soup brand dog food but he didn't like it. I recently saw a new brand call Pet Promise and was wondering if anybody had any feedback on the brand....Here's the site...

http://www.petpromiseinc.com/

[BoxMeIn21]

I wouldn't use it or recommend it...especially with brewers rice and corn gluten meal being in the first 3 ingredients. Chicken may be first ingredient, but when you exclude it's water content, it would come in some where being the 3rd or 4th ingredient, which would make a low quality grain (brewers rices is a waste product of the alcohol industry) and a corn by-product the first thing in the bag. Dogs need meat not grains.

[RonE]

Chicken Soup is a very good kibble. It might be time for a little tough love. "Eat it! It's good for ya!"

[briteday]

Or find an independent retailer, feed store, farm store in your area that carries premium foods. They usually have free sample bags so that you can try before you buy. You can make a short list of what you consider acceptable and then see which one your dog likes best.

[BoxMeIn21]

Along with Briteday's suggestion, there is a website dedicated to dog food analysis - It's www.dogfoodanalysis.com
There is also a kibble grading system posted here by captbob (i think), do a search for that.

[RonE]

Sorry. I should be more understanding.

I've never had a dog that wouldn't eat anything that remotely resembled food.

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by RonE

Sorry. I should be more understanding.

Well, no you have a point - you shouldn't give in to a picky eater.

[TomN]

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

(brewers rices is a waste product of the alcohol industry)

Brewer's Rice--this is not a by-product of the brewing industry. It is the broken rice that cannot by sold at retail and so is SOLD to the brewing industry. This is the same rice consumers purchase, it is just broken. This could just as easily be termed broken rice or, had the pet food manufactures jumped to the table quicker, pet food rice. It is not a by-product.

IMO all grains are not bad, and in the RIGHT QUANTITIES they provide for some of the essential amino acids and carbs that all dogs need for a balanced diet. Not all of these essentials come strictly from meat. Where things get sticky is when the food becomes grain heavy or the manufacturers use splitting (more than one form of the same grain) in their basic formula.

[briteday]

All grains are not bad. However no study has ever shown that canines require grains in their diets. Please read:

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/contrast.html

According to Case, Carey and Hirakawa in Canine and Feline Nutrition, page 174,

"In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins. The protein in grains is not as balanced or available as the protein in high-quality animal sources…"
By high-quality they are referring to meat, poultry and fish products that are derived mainly from muscle and organ tissue rather than "meat and bone meals". Some types of animal-derived meals are not considered to be high quality because of the processing they undergo."

Of the 22 amino acids required by dogs, only 10 cannot be produced and must be supplied, thus they are essential amino acids in the diet. All 10 of the essential amino acids can be supplied by feeding a variety of high quality meat proteins.

[Wimble Woof]

menadione sodium bisulfite

that is one of the first things I look for in a food, if it contains it, stay away, among many other not so wonderful and useless ingredients this food has, it also contains menadione sodium bisulfite also, there is only one named meat, and thats it. All grains from there on out.
I would stay away from it.
what other foods are available to you?
Innova? Orijen? Wellness? Canidae?

[ritabooker]

Originally Posted by RonE

Sorry. I should be more understanding.

I've never had a dog that wouldn't eat anything that remotely resembled food.

Neither did we, before Abby. I give in. I dose her Canidae with a small piece of meat minced and stirred in well. It is a very small piece of meat, but it makes her whole bowl smell like beef or chicken or pork.

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by TomN

Brewer's Rice--this is not a by-product of the brewing industry. It is the broken rice that cannot by sold at retail and so is SOLD to the brewing industry. This is the same rice consumers purchase, it is just broken. This could just as easily be termed broken rice or, had the pet food manufactures jumped to the table quicker, pet food rice. It is not a by-product.

IMO all grains are not bad, and in the RIGHT QUANTITIES they provide for some of the essential amino acids and carbs that all dogs need for a balanced diet. Not all of these essentials come strictly from meat. Where things get sticky is when the food becomes grain heavy or the manufacturers use splitting (more than one form of the same grain) in their basic formula.

Dogs don't need carbs - they need meat. And I respectfully disagree with you about brewers rice - it is indeed a waste product – a spent grain that is a by-product of the alcohol industry. The AAFCO definition is “the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacturing of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent.”

[TomN]

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

Dogs don't need carbs - they need meat. And I respectfully disagree with you about brewers rice - it is indeed a waste product – a spent grain that is a by-product of the alcohol industry. The AAFCO definition is “the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacturing of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent.”

Yes, they do need meat. But carbs also support a roll for dogs, especially those that are working or hunting dogs. They provide glucose which is stored in the muscle's and used to help sustain energy during rigorous exercise. Fat also provides for energy as well. Protein helps to prevent injury and to help build and maintain muscle mass. Especially important with seniors to help maintain muscle mass in their geriatric years.

As for Brewers Rice.....
Quoted from an article:

Determining the Physical Characteristics of Milled Rice.

What are the outputs produced by a rice mill?

What is brewer's rice?
Brewer's rice refers to the small pieces of broken rice that remain after the milling process is complete. As the name implies, brewer’s rice is often used as ingredient for beer brewing. In rural areas, brewer’s rice has a variety of uses and is commonly ground into rice flour.



Brewers rice is sold to the brewing industry(or at least used to be), it is not a by-product of the brewing industry, but rather a by-product of the rice milling process.

Below is from a section in Sag V foods http://www.sagevfoods.com/MainPages/...pes.htm#broken


Broken Rice. The kernel of rice can become cracked in the field, during the drying process, or during the milling process. Cracks are usually caused by moisture migrating too quickly within the kernel (drying too fast, or moisture being added back to a dry kernel). Often these cracks cause the kernels to break during milling and so broken rice is generated. The percentage of broken kernels (relative to total milled rice) generated during milling usually ranges from 12% to 24% in the U.S. Most brokens are removed during the milling process to less than 4% in order to give the consumer a high quality rice. Broken rice tends to get mushy during cooking and makes a poor quality table rice. There are different sizes of broken kernels. With long grain rice in the south brokens are often separated into different sizes. From largest to small they are called; second heads, screenings, and brewers. In California, where the kernel is smaller to begin with, the brokens kernels are only separated into second heads and brewers.

In the past most broken rice in the U.S. went to the beer industry. Today, most of the rice going into beer is now whole kernel. The dog food industry uses the majority of the broken rice. They tend to start with the lower quality brewers rice and then move into the more expensive screenings and second heads as needed.

and more... http://www.usarice.com/processing/rice_forms.html
and more... http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu...e/riceglos.htm
and more .... http://us.eukanuba.com/eukanuba/en_U...PQR&alphaChr=R


I could go on, but I will just say that it may not be as nutritious as the whole rice kernel, but to say it is "waste" is a bit stern.

[redox]

Originally Posted by RonE

Chicken Soup is a very good kibble. It might be time for a little tough love. "Eat it! It's good for ya!"

I agree with Ron, but good discretion on your part is key. It may be that your dog is throwing a tantrum because his food is no longer loaded with sugar and salt (I'd be mad if I couldn't salt my food anymore ). In this case, I'd say tough it out. Your dog won't starve itself. However, there is always the possibility, that some ingredients in this particular food don't agree with your dog or he just plain doesn't like the taste. Only you can decide. Good for you for changing his diet for the better though.

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by TomN

I could go on, but I will just say that it may not be as nutritious as the whole rice kernel, but to say it is "waste" is a bit stern.

I don't think I would take nutrition advice from Eukenuba They have one of the worst products on the market. And I would love to believe pet food manufacturer's use the "broken" yet untouched rice in their foods, but sadly it's not the case.
It's waste, plain and simple - as the AAFCO defines, it's a lower cost by-products of another food manufacturing process (in this case the alcohol industry) that is swept off the floor and re-used.

[briteday]

OK guys, let's not get into a hissy here over rice.

Tom...carbs in the diet are only beneficial during the first hour or two after they are ingested. Any calories from carbs that are not expended in that time are stored as fat in the body. How do I know this? I'm a medical biochemist.

Secondly, if you bothered to read the link I posted earlier you would see the articles from two seminal texts on animal nutrition. Carbs are not necessary in the diet of a dog.

Thirdly, since introducing commercially made kibble in the 1950's the incidence of obesity, diabetes, immune disorders, kidney disease, and heart disease have shown a dramatic increase. It is the same as introducing Western diets to other countries. Their population starts to show signs of Western diseases that were previously considered rare in that society. We have not done dogs many favors with most commercial kibbles. I'm not saying that there aren't any good ones out there. There are some really good ones if you look. But a diet high in carbs in the first 5 ingredients is not considered a quality kibble by any standard.

[TomN]

Originally Posted by briteday

OK guys, let's not get into a hissy here over rice.

Not trying to get hissy, just trying to state facts as I see them documented.

Tom...carbs in the diet are only beneficial during the first hour or two after they are ingested. Any calories from carbs that are not expended in that time are stored as fat in the body. How do I know this? I'm a medical biochemist

Point well taken.

Secondly, if you bothered to read the link I posted earlier you would see the articles from two seminal texts on animal nutrition.

I did and this is what their ideal custom diet contained:

So for dogs and cats... our custom diet will contain vitamins and minerals, some grain for readily available energy, a proper amount and ratio of fat sources, and as a foundation,
a high quality MEAT source.

Totally agree there.

Carbs are not necessary in the diet of a dog.

May not be necessary providing you don't mind the extra effort to feed raw diets or expensive premium grainless kibble. But for many of us, we rely on an affordable feed of which manufacturers can readily formulate cost effectively, and still provide all the nutrition our pets need to thrive (My two GSP's seem to anyways). Most times this involves the use of quality carbohydrates in food as a secondary source of nutrients. As long as carbs are properly processed (dogs do not produce the enzymes required to break down plant cell walls), they are readily metabolized. A moderate amount of quality grade grains contributes many nutrients as well as fiber.

I will certainly agree you that too many carbs (cereal grains) in the first 5 ingredients is not quality feed. A grain heavy feed can or could very well lead to medical issues such as obesity, digestive disorders etc..

In many high grain inexpensive dog food products, grains and grain byproducts are mainly used as a cheap (and incomplete) source of protein, not because of their carbohydrate content.

very true.

Not trying to provoke an argument here, just stating what I have come across when researching the subject.

Another interesting read on carbohydrates in pet foods, if anyone's interested. http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=655

[Lucky_13]

i always thought dogs were a bit more on the omnivore side? that's why their foods contain veggies and fruits and have a lower proteine level than cat foods?

[RonE]

I believe that's true but, if the number one ingrediant in a dog food is corn (and it is in many well-known foods) then we're not doing the dog any favors by feeding it.

[Lucky_13]

oh yeah, i know that. i've done a lot of research on cat foods, i've had cats all my life, so even though this is my first dog, i still have an understanding of pet foods. i feed my cats chicken soup for the pet lovers soul. i was going to feed Max the dog formula, but heard its had some recalls, so i think i'll be going for Canidae. Corn really isn't good for any mammal to eat, not even humans in large quantities. i used to own rats and its a no-no in rat food as well, it contributes to developing cancer. and we all know that rats are used in labs to test people problems.....