[vabird]

Sure you can take your dog to the vet for extreme nail clipping but you better not complain about the cost. Sedating a brachycephalic, like a pug, for a nail trim, is dangerous. They really need to be under general anesthesia with an endotracheal tube in place to protect their airway. A local block should be used since this is a very painful procedure and take home meds should also be prescribed. You could be talking about a couple of hundred dollars for a nail trim.

[Graco22]

[quote=PugChick;426642]

And I think you have the totally wrong picture in your head, of me grabbing a leg and not letting go and just getting the job done.

QUOTE]

Exactly. I used to work with horses, riding horses and racehorse, yearlings, etc. and its the same techniques used in training colts.

I do all my walk in nail trims (and those are the "naughty" ones, not the grooming dogs) with the owners holding the leashes. I never hurt them, I never let them hurt themselves, and the owners are always amazed that it takes just a few minutes for their dog to be done. I NEVER clip a nail until the dog is relaxed and still. NEVER EVER. That teaches them nothing, just forces it on them. I don't force anything on the dog, I am just holding his paw, and he is the one pulling away. Dogs aren't stupid, and they figure this out in a matter of seconds if you know what you are doing and the dog feels your confidance and security. The dog stops pulling away, and the paw is released/or nail clipped. You just keep repeating the technique, and usually by the second or third foot, they are being just fine. I also alway start with a hind leg, as most dogs are less comfortable with the front feet being done. Like was stated, sure, my own dogs lay there for me to do nails, because I taught them acceptable behavior and worked with them...unfortunately, the VAST majority of pet owners DO NOT teach their dogs correct behavior for nail trims, and most of the time make the behavior worse by being nervous, letting the dogs pull their feet away, dance around, nip (which turns into biting) etc...Then they bring them to a professional because they have created a monster, and expect us to get out our magic wands. You know, I have groomed probably thousands of puppies, under the age of 6 months...NEVER was a single one, of any breed, anything but perfect for their nails..Because they have never had them trimmed, and had no reason to be nervous or worried, or misbehave. Owners teach their pets, inadvertently, to fear nail trims.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by pugmom

....a week or less?.....riiiiigggght

hold on to an animals appendage while it wildly flails around? ......not only would I worry about harming my dog...but I would also worry that this would stress her out beyond belief...

If the dog is being held properly at his collar, the only 'flailing' will be the dog trying to pull the foot away. You're not pulling the foot back further, or anything like that, you're just not letting go. You don't let go until he relaxes; then you can release, praise him!

And to the 'stress' thing... A few minutes of the dog trying to figure out that he can't just pull his foot away, or be naughty, but can't, is much better, imho than sedating the dog just to get his nails trimmed. He can learn to behave, and he won't be hurt, he just won't win his 'game'.

Originally Posted by pamperedpups

I believe the correct term in these situations is "learned helplessness."

Here's an interesting article for pugmom:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...iltrimming.htm

Keep in mind that training horses, and training dogs are two separate things; even if some of the techniques seem similar. With dogs, while they can bite, they can not crush your skull with one kick, or even a swing of their heads.

And what pugchick was talking to, was not negative reinforcement at all...it's called approach and retreat...when the horse relaxes, you release any pressure and praise. Horses are prey animals and anything done to a horse that he deems scarey, or forceful can wind up with fight or flight instincts kicking in, and a handler being hurt. Good trainers work with the horse with that in mind. Pugchick's method for helping the horse understand that relaxation\give=release is right on when it comes to horses. It's done in tiny increments, usually starting with rubbing a particular area of the horse, and waiting for him to realize it's not going to hurt him, and stopping movement...then you release the pressure, which is the horse's reward. Hardly learned helplessness...horses are far from helpless.

[JessRU09]

My family owned a Rat Terrier who absolutely hated getting his nails cut. We went through all the methods suggested, he just would not allow it. He would bite, kick, pee, and scream. He was a small dog, but even my father could not hold him still enough for us to cut or dremel his nails. He would jerk his body violently, making it impossible to hold his feet steady. We tried sedatives, but they didn't work. Our only option was to have them trimmed by the vet... and it often took an entire staff to hold him in place.

When we first got Dexter, we wanted to be sure this wouldn't happen again. We did all the recommended training... touching his paws, getting him accustom to having his feet held still, rewarding him... and his first nail clipping went fine. But the second one was a nightmare. It was as if a switch went off in his head and he was terrified. We didn't hurt him at all... I know this because we didn't successfully cut any nails during his second session. He was too busy screaming and hiding. It was so bizarre.

We tried a few more times, and got very frustrated. We bought a dremel, which we couldn't even get near him with. Then one day we tried cutting them again, and I kept him busy by letting him mouth my hands a little... and it worked wonders. But that still takes two people to do.

So I came across my final solution to the problem... I get him all tired out (either from a long walk, or fetch, or tug of war). Then when he passes out, I break out the clippers and start trimming away. Most of the time he wakes up as I'm cutting a nail, and he gets a semi-concerned look on his face... but he's too tired to do anything. So I just pet him and calm him down, and he falls right back to sleep. I guess sometimes you just gotta be sneaky.

[babysweet]

I too have used the methods described above when presented with an "impossible" dog. And yes, on the panicky ones as well. What it teaches them is that the faster they relax, the faster it's over, and the faster the clippers go back in the drawer. Not only that, it's followed by a "jackpot" reward - a giant handful of whatever the dog can't resist. Cheese, hotdogs, benny bullys, purebites, whatever his heart desires.

Within a half dozen sessions, there may be some residual shaking, but it generally goes by without incident, no muzzles, snip, snip, snip.

Another half dozen sessions, we have a squiggly dog who is then comfortable enough to take treats throughout the session (a truly afraid dog will not eat) and so we indulge him, followed always by the jackpot at the end.

After this, we end up with a dog who, a block away, begins to bark with excitement, and pulls his owner all the way to the front door. The owner then ends up bringing him to us for pilling, ear cleaning, ear/eye drops, mat removal, what have you - even though technically we don't do grooming services at all!! We just hate to think about this poor dog and the poor owners who have this easily correctable rift between them and their dog, not to mention the lack of comfort the dog must experience in between trims.

What's worse, a dozen less-than comfortable sessions, improving each time, or a lifetime of RVTs pinning down a muzzled, thrashing dog or using potentially harmful sedatives and tranquilizers that only serve to worsen the situation in the dog's mind for next time?

As for veterinary surgery to remove the nails, I am in complete disagreement except in the worst cases of neglect where it is required for medical reasons.

I also think it's disgusting that it's referred to as a "show clip." If you are showing your dog, and know you'll be showing your dog, you should be caring for the nails the same way you care for his coat and general body condition. Weekly care will avoid the need for this cosmetic mutilation.

[MissMutt]

Originally Posted by JessRU09

We tried a few more times, and got very frustrated. We bought a dremel, which we couldn't even get near him with. Then one day we tried cutting them again, and I kept him busy by letting him mouth my hands a little... and it worked wonders. But that still takes two people to do.

I do the same thing except with a bully stick, not my hands. Works wonderfully.. my dog's chomping away and I'm dremelling her nails down.

[JessRU09]

Originally Posted by MissMutt

I do the same thing except with a bully stick, not my hands. Works wonderfully.. my dog's chomping away and I'm dremelling her nails down.

We tried using probably two dozen different kinds of treats to keep him distracted. He either ate them too quickly, or they didn't hold his attention. My hands, however, he could not digest... and he couldn't avoid them, either. I'd wiggle my fingers around his tongue/lips, and he was distracted enough to let my SO clip.

Luckily, the cut-while-he's-sleeping method works, so my hands don't have to suffer.

[Graco22]

Originally Posted by babysweet

I also think it's disgusting that it's referred to as a "show clip." If you are showing your dog, and know you'll be showing your dog, you should be caring for the nails the same way you care for his coat and general body condition. Weekly care will avoid the need for this cosmetic mutilation.

I think the reason it's called a show trim, is because when the dog is done, the nails are as short as a show dog's nails are. Obviously, show dog's nails are trimmed/dremeled weekly to get them that short, not sedated whacked off at the vets.

[babysweet]

Originally Posted by Graco22

I think the reason it's called a show trim, is because when the dog is done, the nails are as short as a show dog's nails are. Obviously, show dog's nails are trimmed/dremeled weekly to get them that short, not sedated whacked off at the vets.

I only wish that were the case. We have at least three breeders who use these "show trims" through their vets for their show dogs. The last time I dealt with one of them (I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with them anymore) the standard poodle breeder was talking about doing it herself, at home!! Her follow up was "I wish I didn't have to do it, but it's a specialty and there's a $2,000 purse!"

Hmmm... could you pay me $20,000 to cosmetically mutilate my dog, causing her unnecessary pain and suffering and potential infection? Ummm.... HECK, NO. Sorry, no dice.

Suggesting that some of these dogs don't receive these clips is like suggesting people aren't dying retrievers brown noses black.

Sorry, but I just get really worked up when it comes to the mutilation of animals for beauty or personal gain.

[Graco22]

Originally Posted by babysweet

I only wish that were the case. We have at least three breeders who use these "show trims" through their vets for their show dogs. The last time I dealt with one of them (I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with them anymore) the standard poodle breeder was talking about doing it herself, at home!! Her follow up was "I wish I didn't have to do it, but it's a specialty and there's a $2,000 purse!"

Hmmm... could you pay me $20,000 to cosmetically mutilate my dog, causing her unnecessary pain and suffering and potential infection? Ummm.... HECK, NO. Sorry, no dice.

Suggesting that some of these dogs don't receive these clips is like suggesting people aren't dying retrievers brown noses black.

Sorry, but I just get really worked up when it comes to the mutilation of animals for beauty or personal gain.

Well, that is really too bad. I work with many breeders, of many different breeds, and I have never known one that has the vet do the "show trims" on the nails. Most of them couldn't afford that anyway, as they aren't rich people, and having alot of show dogs and breeders costs alot of money. I certainly wouldn't consider her a good breeder, and I do think (hope) that its not the norm for breeders to do that. When I worked at a vet clinic, we never had a breeder come in for the show trim..but lots of pet people. What a shame..I don't think a vet should even do it unless its a dire situation...same as declawing cats...they shouldn't be doing it and advocating it like SO many do. But money is the almighty.

[PugChick]

Originally Posted by Love's_Sophie

And what pugchick was talking to, was not negative reinforcement at all...it's called approach and retreat...when the horse relaxes, you release any pressure and praise.

Actually, yes it is -R. Apply pressure, and release pressure when the desired behavior is given - in this case relaxing or standing still. It works the same if it's a horse, dog or cat - my 6 wk old kittens just got this same lessons in having their paws held.

I think you're confusing negative reinforcement and punishment.

[animalcraker]

Originally Posted by Graco22

Well, that is really too bad. I work with many breeders, of many different breeds, and I have never known one that has the vet do the "show trims" on the nails. Most of them couldn't afford that anyway, as they aren't rich people, and having alot of show dogs and breeders costs alot of money. I certainly wouldn't consider her a good breeder, and I do think (hope) that its not the norm for breeders to do that. When I worked at a vet clinic, we never had a breeder come in for the show trim..but lots of pet people. What a shame..I don't think a vet should even do it unless its a dire situation...same as declawing cats...they shouldn't be doing it and advocating it like SO many do. But money is the almighty.

I completely agree, esspecialy with the part in bold. I've been in the show world since I was 10 and worked a vet hospital for the past couple years and I've never heard of this procedure being called a "show trim".

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by PugChick

Actually, yes it is -R. Apply pressure, and release pressure when the desired behavior is given - in this case relaxing or standing still. It works the same if it's a horse, dog or cat

Oh good, I'm glad we were on the same 'wavelength'!

[myminpins]

I dremel my dogs' nails (minpins) but they NEVER like it. Sometimes they scream like I'm killing them, other times they tolerate it but it's never a quick and easy thing. It IS done in less than five minutes and they DO get a special treat at the end and are happy as clams in two seconds so I just gave up and that's how it's done. I don't want to use a clipper as they have black nails and I don't want to quick them. I'm really quick at it now and a combination of the football hold and my SO helping and it's done very quickly. I don't have the patience to desensitize them for months so they'll "let" me do their nails. It's only five mins a week so too bad - they have to put up with it. As I said to my kids as they were growing up, sometimes life sucks - get used to it. I'm not hurting them and it's very quick so tuff.

[spotted nikes]

I taught one of the strays I found to let me clip her nails in about a week. She used to freak out if you tried to restrain her and hold her paw. I would just have her sit beside me and say "paw", then pick up her paw, and reward and praise her. I'd do that for all four paws. Then I would hold the nail clippers and do it. I'd practice several times a day. Eventually, I'd say paw, and then say "touch", and just touch the clipper to her nail, and reward/praise. Again, repeating several times throughout the day. Eventually she relaxed enough that I's say "touch" and clip the nail. Then reward, repeat. I'd do only a few nails at a time. Now she is easy to do.

You have to make ABSOLUTELY sure that you don't cut the quick doing this on one that was previously fearful. You'll end up having to start from scratch.