[blackrose]

I never planned on getting Chloe shaved down (LOVE her coat), but the care for her coat has slowly snuck up on me. I'm used to wash and wear dogs and now, it seems to me out of the blue, she has some nice mats on her thighs.

I would just brush the mats out, but Chloe has always been iffy with being brushed and while she is getting better she will try to bite me if I take a brush to her mats. She'll let me brush her elsewhere, but me yanking and pulling on the mats is not okay with her.

So I think it is time for a short cut, at least until she is okay with me brushing her hind legs. I work as an assistant groomer (fancy name for the person who bathes the dogs and helps hold them when they are being butts for the groomer ) and I plan on taking Chloe in with me to get the groomer's advice, but I'd also like to ask you guys what you think.

How should I have her groomed to get her fur short, but not a shave down? Will chopping off most of her hair cause it to grow back weird (different texture)? What is the shortest I can go and still keep enough coat to protect her from the heat/elements?

[Jr. Dog Expert]

I'm thinking that maybe cutting half way through the matt, then trying to comb it out and see if it'll come out. This way you don't have to cut all the way down to where it is matted. How often do you brush your pooch? I ask that because constant (and I mean daily ) brushing will greatly prevent matts, that is unless she runs into weeds or something. I have a chow and he used to have matts with his previous owner, but since I got him he hasn't had a matt and I groom him 3-4 times a week at least.

Hope that helps!

Btw I'll be becoming a Dog Groomer Assistant myself soon! Might need some tips from ya!

[blackrose]

Originally Posted by Jr. Dog Expert

I'm thinking that maybe cutting half way through the matt, then trying to comb it out and see if it'll come out. This way you don't have to cut all the way down to where it is matted. How often do you brush your pooch? I ask that because constant (and I mean daily ) brushing will greatly prevent matts, that is unless she runs into weeds or something. I have a chow and he used to have matts with his previous owner, but since I got him he hasn't had a matt and I groom him 3-4 times a week at least.

Hope that helps!

Btw I'll be becoming a Dog Groomer Assistant myself soon! Might need some tips from ya!

I've been brushing her, now that it is hot out, about every week. I know, I know, bad mommy. I'm just so used to having short haired dogs that every week is a step up for me. I wasn't too concerned about the once a week brushing because I'd do a run through of her coat every day checking the "easy mattable" places (behind the ears, armpits, leg featherings, etc.) for mats and she never had any. Then one day I noticed her thigh fuzz looked weired and sure enough she had some matts in them.
I tried to brush them out the other day but almost got bit three or four times and that was with Chloe constantly getting a stream of yummy treats from my younger sister.

They would come out easily enough by just brushing if she would cooperate, but she won't. If I had her muzzled and/or had her head held while someone brushed the mats out they'd come out, but I don't want her first groom to be a bad experience, nor do I want her to hate having her thighs/back legs brushed/touched. That is why I thought trimming her down a bit would be easier for all of us in the long run.

Oh, have fun being an assistant groomer! I really have hate/love relationship with the job...there are times I want to shoot myself (and the dog I'm working with at the time) and there are other times I love it. Be prepared to see all sorts of nasty dogs and cats come in though....there are some animals that come in for a groom that you just think, "And these people aren't being charged with animal neglect?"

[Graco22]

If its just the matts on the back legs that you are concerned with, an experience groomer can shave them out without taking off any coat elsewhere. Many times, those short spots can be "hidden" by the other coat on the legs. But if you are wanting an easier to maintain cut, you can have the groomer use an attachment to leave her coat longer than you can with a blade. For instance an inch long all over, etc. Do keep in mind though that anytime you cut down a doublecoated breed, there is a chance the coat will not grow back the same-more undercoat than guard hairs, etc. The chances of that happening increase if you go to shorter blade lengths. Its very important to make sure that you are brushing her regularly even when she is shorter, to remove the dead undercoat and stimulate regrowth of the guard hairs. Another option is to have the groomer just trim the furnishings on her (legs, belly, pants, tail, etc.) shorter with shears to get the bulky longer hair shorter and easier to maintain. That can be done without taking length off the rest of the body coat. I do that for summer trims with many borders, goldens, shelties, etc. and similar mixes.

[blackrose]

Originally Posted by Graco22

If its just the matts on the back legs that you are concerned with, an experience groomer can shave them out without taking off any coat elsewhere. Many times, those short spots can be "hidden" by the other coat on the legs....
Another option is to have the groomer just trim the furnishings on her (legs, belly, pants, tail, etc.) shorter with shears to get the bulky longer hair shorter and easier to maintain. That can be done without taking length off the rest of the body coat. I do that for summer trims with many borders, goldens, shelties, etc. and similar mixes.

That sounds like what I'm leaning towards doing. I REALLY don't want to trim her coat any shorter. I do love her longer fur and it isn't that hard to maintain.
I think the main reason her hair has matted on her thighs is because of shedding. I took her outside and was brushing her this morning and she had some smaller mats on the top of her back legs. I gentley brushed those out (she was being SO good!) and a ton of dead fur/shedded fur was coming out of it. To me this would make sense, as before she started blowing her coat she had no mats to speak off and I was brushing even less than once a week. Once these mats are out of her butt fuzz and she gets a potty patch done, it should be smooth sailing.
The hair on her thighs is also a different texture than the rest of her fur is. It seems like it is almost more...coarse? Is that normal with long haired dog breeds, or is Chloe just weird?

You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of the dogs that you had groomed by trimming up the furnishings, would you?

I took some pictures to show you what it looks like...

This is what her buttfuzz looks like from a side view:


But when you look underneath, you can see the mats:


Her in all of her fuzziness (you can see the mats in this picture too):



It is that really blonde, long hair on her thighs that is giving me the problem and what I would like trimmed up.

[sheltiemom]

Yeah, it's totally normal for the butt fur to be coarser. I know people who trim just around the butt, but I'm afraid to have anything on mine trimmed because I'm afraid they'll cut too much, or like I heard from someone recently, they just started cutting and it looked uneven so they decided to shave the dog . I'd love to get Shiner especially trimmed around the butt and tail, feet, and face/ears, not because of mats, just to look neater, but I just don't trust anyone to do it.

ETA: Even if you trimmed her rear it probably wouldn't help with mats very much, just going by the way mine mat, it's the undercoat closer to the skin that gets matted and it seems like you'd have to cut really close to take care of that.

[Laurelin]

Our sheltie's bum had to get shaved a year ago and it never grew back the same. The color is different and the texture is really different as well. I'd try to avoid shaving unless you HAVE to.

You can kind of see it in this picture:

[Graco22]

Those matts look like they are just undercoat matts. A good, experienced groomer can get those out easily, with out cutting any hair off. A good wash, conditioner, matt spray and a HV dryer and they will fly right out. She is a very pretty dog..in my opinion, would not look as pretty short. I like your thoughts about leaving her as is, just trimming. Her "pants" as they are commonly called can be trimmed up, but the matts need to be removed first in the process above. Then they can either scissor them up, or go shorter with an attachment of various lengths. Like someone above said, going shorter there isn't going to help much with the matting. It may make it quicker to brush out, and less poo danglies, etc, but the matts will still happen if you are not brushing her thoroughly, to the skin. Since she is so thick there, (and you said she doesn't like that area brushed) my guess is that you haven't been getting all the way to the skin and removing all that dead undercoat that is now matting in there. You really would benefit from teaching her to allow you to brush and comb that area fully. If you don't have a grooming table, any small table (even the washing machine with the lid closed) will work. Put a towel down and stand her up there, with someone holding the leash if you have someone to help you teach her. If you don't have someone to help, just leave the leash loose, and teach her "stand" When you start working back there and she spins and nips or crys, just stand her back up, say "stand" and keep working. Always end on a GOOD note, when she is letting you do what you are trying to do, or she will learn to fight harder to get you to stop. The table helps because it gives you easier access to where you are trying to get at than her laying on the floor does, and it gives a differentiation between on the floor play/love time, and grooming/work time. A good groomer can get those matts out for you and give you a clean slate to start with. Oh, and make sure you are using a metal comb thru those thick areas after brushing to ensure you are clear all the way to the skin. Very important as a brush will skim over the thick coat there. Where are you located? I know quite a few groomers across the country, and I might be able to refer you if you are close to someone I know.

I looked for pictures of trims on similar breeds to your girl, but I don't have any pics of anything. It would basically be the same cut as would be breed standard on a golden, sheltie, border, etc..any bath/brush breed. Only things neatened would be pants, furnishings, feet and sometimes around the ears.

[blackrose]

ETA: Even if you trimmed her rear it probably wouldn't help with mats very much, just going by the way mine mat, it's the undercoat closer to the skin that gets matted and it seems like you'd have to cut really close to take care of that.

She needs her hind hind trimmed up just because of all of the poop and stuff that gets stuck in her bum fur....thus the potty patch I want done. It is not fun having to wash your dogs butt off everytime she has loose poop (which is semi-often for her).

Those matts look like they are just undercoat matts. A good, experienced groomer can get those out easily, with out cutting any hair off. A good wash, conditioner, matt spray and a HV dryer and they will fly right out. She is a very pretty dog..in my opinion, would not look as pretty short.

I'm heading into work tomorrow and I'll hopefully be able to talk with the groomer about what would be best for Chloe. And I agree, she wouldn't look as pretty short. When she was going through her gangly puppy stage her coat was short....and she was UGLY.

You really would benefit from teaching her to allow you to brush and comb that area fully.

We are working on that at the moment, but the way to start getting her to except it isn't by tugging and yanking at mats. She used to not let me brush her at all and would get bitey/growly when I even tried to brush her back. We've worked on it and she will let me brush her everywhere now BUT where her mats are, and I'm assuming that is just because she doesn't like me yanking on them. Once there are no mats, I think she'll be okay after a few more treat/brush sessions.

Oh, and make sure you are using a metal comb thru those thick areas after brushing to ensure you are clear all the way to the skin. Very important as a brush will skim over the thick coat there. Where are you located? I know quite a few groomers across the country, and I might be able to refer you if you are close to someone I know.

I have four different brushes....a pin brush, a shedding blade, a bristle brush, and an undercoat rake. I use the undercoat rake to brush her brush her (to make sure I do get down to the skin), the pin brush to make her pretty, the shedding blade to yank out dead fur, and the bristle brush to give her a back rub.

I'm extremly close to Lafayette, IN. I work at a vet clinic that also offers grooming and boarding. The groomer that we have now has around ten years of experience and I'd trust her to do a good job with Chloe...sadly, I have yet to see a groomer come through the business that will actually work WITH the dog, instead of just scolding it whenever it does something "wrong". I find it sad that even though I do just as much holding and "manhandling" the dog, the dogs will come to me 98% of the time when given a choice because I praise them when they are good instead of scolding them when they are "bad".

[Rowdy]

I've been told by multiple breeders not to shave a rough collie. Those long hairs help protect from the heat as well as the cold. I would think this would go for your dog as well.

Toby, our rough coat, has a huge coat. What we do is shave his belly and his "armpits" (for lack of a better word). Then we have his front feathers and his pants cut close - about 1-2 inches long. His lower back leg feathers also get shaved. This way he still looks like a collie, but this cuts down tremendously on the matting and getting foliage in his fur when we hike.

[Dogstar]

Another thing taht may help is a good conditioner/detangler spray. I like Cowboy Magic or Show Sheen (both are horse products and you can get them at almost any farm store)- they'll make her coat a bit slicker and keep it from tangling so bad.

[RMQ]

We were given a rough collie about a year ago. He has a huge coat but very dingy and unkempt. Many mats around the neck area. Although I was able to resurect his back and body, I am still at my wits end with his neck and armpits. Despite all the time and effort to groom him into looking healthy we broke down to have him professionally done. Well needless to say he returned with very little hair. I cannot believe it. He doesn't even look like our dog. Have you ever had this done and do you know if the coat will return. I'm just sick about this. I need a product that will stimualte quick hair growth.

[Graco22]

I am glad you have a groomer you trust to take a look at her. I am sure she can get her fixed up for you.

To RMQ, I have never seen a rough coat collie in bad enough shape that they needed to be shaved. I have shaved them per owner request, and had to spot shave some pits, and pants here and there, but the nice thing about double coats is that that matted hair is undercoat that is already blown out of the skin and just caught in the coat. With the right products and equipment and know how, it can be removed with no stress on the dog. Since your dog is already short, there is a chance it will not grow back very nicely at first. Keep up with the brushing, card him out once a week or so with a carding tool, like the Furminator (gently). That will stimulate the guard hairs to get growing back, and remove the undercoat that can clog the follicle. You can also feed a product called Dream Coat made by Halo, it helps grow coat faster. It is going to take some time to get his coat back though, and you will still need to brush and rake/comb thoroughly to keep him from matting again. Even at an inch long, he can matt up with dead coat. His short cut will give you a chance to keep up with it.

[blackrose]

Well, I'm hoping to take Chloe in with me Saturday to get worked on. I'll let you all know how it goes. Wish me luck. lol

[Purplex15]

Originally Posted by blackrose

She needs her hind hind trimmed up just because of all of the poop and stuff that gets stuck in her bum fur....thus the potty patch I want done. It is not fun having to wash your dogs butt off everytime she has loose poop (which is semi-often for her).


I'm heading into work tomorrow and I'll hopefully be able to talk with the groomer about what would be best for Chloe. And I agree, she wouldn't look as pretty short. When she was going through her gangly puppy stage her coat was short....and she was UGLY.


We are working on that at the moment, but the way to start getting her to except it isn't by tugging and yanking at mats. She used to not let me brush her at all and would get bitey/growly when I even tried to brush her back. We've worked on it and she will let me brush her everywhere now BUT where her mats are, and I'm assuming that is just because she doesn't like me yanking on them. Once there are no mats, I think she'll be okay after a few more treat/brush sessions.


I have four different brushes....a pin brush, a shedding blade, a bristle brush, and an undercoat rake. I use the undercoat rake to brush her brush her (to make sure I do get down to the skin), the pin brush to make her pretty, the shedding blade to yank out dead fur, and the bristle brush to give her a back rub.

I'm extremly close to Lafayette, IN. I work at a vet clinic that also offers grooming and boarding. The groomer that we have now has around ten years of experience and I'd trust her to do a good job with Chloe...sadly, I have yet to see a groomer come through the business that will actually work WITH the dog, instead of just scolding it whenever it does something "wrong". I find it sad that even though I do just as much holding and "manhandling" the dog, the dogs will come to me 98% of the time when given a choice because I praise them when they are good instead of scolding them when they are "bad".

you should NEVER be tugging on matts. like graco said, a PROFESSIONAL will know how to get those matts out. if they say it cant be done then go to a different groomer. when i first started out i worked with many groomers who would just shave a dog who had matted undercoat. once i sarted doing these dogs i found that the hair brushes out really easy if you know what you are doing. judging from the matts, i can honestly say you have not been doing a thorough job with the brushing. im not trying to get you down, im just being honest. graco gave you some good tips for brushing and yuou seemed to kind of ignore her. im just letting you know that a matt like that takes a while to get to that point, so it has been a long time since a brush has touched your dogs skin.

your list of brushes: a pin brush will do you no good so you might as well just stop using it. a shedding blade and an undercoat rake have the same effect, so you wouldnt need both (rakes are much more effective than blades, imo). i have no idea what you mean by bristle, but ill just assume you mean a slicker. all you need is an undercoat rake, a slicker, and a metal comb. when you brush you need to part the hair so that you are brushing from the root, instead of just the top coat.

[Rough_Collies2008]

Originally Posted by RMQ

We were given a rough collie about a year ago. He has a huge coat but very dingy and unkempt. Many mats around the neck area. Although I was able to resurect his back and body, I am still at my wits end with his neck and armpits. Despite all the time and effort to groom him into looking healthy we broke down to have him professionally done. Well needless to say he returned with very little hair. I cannot believe it. He doesn't even look like our dog. Have you ever had this done and do you know if the coat will return. I'm just sick about this. I need a product that will stimualte quick hair growth.

I have seen a few rescue collies that needed to be shaved, they do grow back looking pretty good to me.

It will just take time, which I know is hard!

My collie puppy had to have his sides and stomach shaved for an ultra sound back in February. Now his entire body wasn't shaved, but I must admit, I wasn't ready for any of his coat to be gone. Obviously had I known they were going to shave for the ultra sound(don't know why I didn't think of it until I saw him) I still would have allowed it....health is more important then the coat.

Here is what he looked like when he came home, 6 months:



one month later, 7 months



and now, just about 11 months



His undercoat has pretty much returned, however, his top coat has not yet. I do believe it will take a full year before it come back completely. It may look better when his winter coat starts coming in though...same goes for your collie.

blackrose, I think you already recieved some great information. I also do a sanitary trim for their butts(haven't recently, but they will when they go in). Just helps with the poop that does like to make itself home back there. They don't trim much, just enough where it makes my job a bit easier.

With the matts, I do also agree that a good groomer should be able to work those out(but they will come back quickly if you don't work with them once she comes back). Post pictures of her after the grooming job!

[blackrose]

Originally Posted by Purplex15

you should NEVER be tugging on matts. like graco said, a PROFESSIONAL will know how to get those matts out. if they say it cant be done then go to a different groomer. when i first started out i worked with many groomers who would just shave a dog who had matted undercoat. once i sarted doing these dogs i found that the hair brushes out really easy if you know what you are doing. judging from the matts, i can honestly say you have not been doing a thorough job with the brushing. im not trying to get you down, im just being honest. graco gave you some good tips for brushing and yuou seemed to kind of ignore her. im just letting you know that a matt like that takes a while to get to that point, so it has been a long time since a brush has touched your dogs skin.

I've sat down with Chloe and attempted to brush the mats out (little bit at a time - no tugging involved), but she is still jumpy enough with brushing that even just hitting a small tangle causes her to flip out. Since I've posted this thread I've been taking some "brushing time" each morning to run the undercoat rake through her fur to make sure there won't be any more mats cropping up on me. So far so good. I found a couple of tiny tangles on her sides, but those came out easily enough (along with tons of dead undercoat).
Yes, I haven't been doing a good job with brushing her. I'm fully capable of doing it, but until shedding season started she had no mats to speak of and it made me lax in brushing her. She's my first longhaired dog and the coat care snuck up on me. It also didn't help that every time I would try to brush her before she would try to bite me.

your list of brushes: a pin brush will do you no good so you might as well just stop using it. a shedding blade and an undercoat rake have the same effect, so you wouldnt need both (rakes are much more effective than blades, imo). i have no idea what you mean by bristle, but ill just assume you mean a slicker. all you need is an undercoat rake, a slicker, and a metal comb. when you brush you need to part the hair so that you are brushing from the root, instead of just the top coat

I use the pin brush to brush through her leg featherings and behind her ears, nothing else. I do agree with you, it is pretty useless.
Just to clarify, this is the shedding blade I have:

and this is the undercoat rake I have:


I use the blade to pick up loose hair. I use the rake to make sure I'm brushing all of the way down to her skin and pick out dead undercoat.
Would a metal comb be all that different?

The bristle brush I have is like this:

Only it came on the back of the pin brush I have. The bristle brush is only used to give her a backrub with. lol It would probably be useful if I had a smooth coated dog, but for Chloe? Nah.

I had a slicker brush once upon a time, but I don't know what happened to it. I had the slicker to use on my Lab, but when I found the shedding blade it went by the wayside.

[blackrose]

Chloe was groomed today. She looks so much better now. The mats came out without too much hassle. She got the mats out, a potty patch, her leg featherings trimmed up, her tail brushed out and trimmed, and her feet trimmed up. The only time she gave us any hassle was when the mats were coming out...she tried to bite/snap once or twice, but after I put her in a headlock and started to rub her ears she calmed down. She was SO GOOD for the rest of the quick and easy groom I was shocked. She didn't wiggle or protest when Cindy was picking up her feet and trimming her.
She was really good for her bath and blowdry too...normally she flips out when I blowdry her, but she did good today (and got lots of treats because of it!).

Cindy gave me the groom free of charge, bless her heart. Since I wasn't sure if I could tip her without her getting into trouble seeing as how I "technically" didn't get Chloe groomed, I'm going to bake some cookies for her instead and give them to her tomorrow at work.

Anyways, here is a side picture of Chloe's butt fuzz, like the previous one:


I couldn't get a picture of her non-matted fur because she wouldn't hold still....but here is another one of her to show you how pretty she looks (this was the only still shot I could get of her LOL):


From now on I am brushing Chloe daily (or at least every other day) because I don't want to have to deal with her even slightly matting again.

[Graco22]

So glad to hear you got her all fixed up. She looks great. Thank you for posting the brushes you have. If you want to hang on to the bristle brush for her "massages" go ahead, but that is all its good for on a coat like hers. Your shedding blade is worthless on her coat as well. It might take a little dead coat out in the shorter spots on her sides and back, but its really not going to do enough to make it worth the effort. I see the problem with your rake. Those teeth are NOT long enough to get thru her coat and down to the skin, hence your matting problem. You need to get a rake with longer teeth. Here is a great one to have. Ignore the green handled ones..no good for you..its the wooden handled one I would recommend you get.

http://www.ryanspet.com/ryanspet/pro...startItemCnt=1

YOu can also use a metal comb, with fine and medium teeth greyhound type (not a poodle comb-teeth too far apart) instead of the rake, but the rake will be easier to use. That is totally the problem. Your rake just isn't the right one for your dog's coat. Those teeth aren't near long enough to penetrate her thick coat down to the skin, so it slides thru a quarter inch of the topcoat, while the underneath gets matted. Easy problem to fix. I agree with Purplex. Get a slicker, and a good rake like the above, and you can eliminate the other tools. The pin brush doesn't do anything that a nice slicker won't do, and it will do it faster and more effeciently. (when you get a new slicker, they can be sharp, so "brush" some concrete a few times as you would brush a coat, to dull up the tines a bit. )

[blackrose]

Originally Posted by Graco22

So glad to hear you got her all fixed up. She looks great. Thank you for posting the brushes you have. If you want to hang on to the bristle brush for her "massages" go ahead, but that is all its good for on a coat like hers. Your shedding blade is worthless on her coat as well. It might take a little dead coat out in the shorter spots on her sides and back, but its really not going to do enough to make it worth the effort. I see the problem with your rake. Those teeth are NOT long enough to get thru her coat and down to the skin, hence your matting problem. You need to get a rake with longer teeth. Here is a great one to have. Ignore the green handled ones..no good for you..its the wooden handled one I would recommend you get.

http://www.ryanspet.com/ryanspet/pro...startItemCnt=1

YOu can also use a metal comb, with fine and medium teeth greyhound type (not a poodle comb-teeth too far apart) instead of the rake, but the rake will be easier to use. That is totally the problem. Your rake just isn't the right one for your dog's coat. Those teeth aren't near long enough to penetrate her thick coat down to the skin, so it slides thru a quarter inch of the topcoat, while the underneath gets matted. Easy problem to fix. I agree with Purplex. Get a slicker, and a good rake like the above, and you can eliminate the other tools. The pin brush doesn't do anything that a nice slicker won't do, and it will do it faster and more effeciently. (when you get a new slicker, they can be sharp, so "brush" some concrete a few times as you would brush a coat, to dull up the tines a bit. )

Ah, I see what you mean. I'll look into buying a new undercoat rake. The one I have currently gets through her normal coat fine (she really doesn't have that bad of an undercoat - must be the Aussie in her), except for her thighs which is where most of her undercoat is.

I'm assuming all slicker brushers are created equal, so there isn't a certain one I should get? Thanks for the tip about "dulling" the slicker....that is one reason I never liked them as the tines were always so sharp.