[IslandMutts]

if you need to leave the dog alone in the house and the crate obviously isn't working (i can't believe he cracked it open!) then maybe you can leave him in one room of the house with the door shut. this would at least confine the messes to a smaller area until you can work out his behavioral/medical issues. if you have a tiled bathroom that might work, although try it out first without leaving him in there too long. he might damage the door to the bathroom trying to get out, but at least it saves your carpets and floors in other parts of the house. People have given you some great advice here, best of luck.

[eightyf0ur]

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that down for me. It's printed and on my fridge where I can refer back to it when necessary. I'm going to try what you suggested.. and I'll keep you posted on the progress.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by wolfy

Firstly, well done for sticking by your dog and trying to work through this situation. I feel for you.

I have a number of suggestions to be used together. The situation has clearly escalated to one of mammoth proprtions and is unlikely to be solved overnight. If you really want to get to the bottom of the problem and cure it, it will take lots of time, patience and consistency. This doesn't sound so much like a training problem as a behaviour problem, so I will recommend a variety of things in order to deal with all opssible aspects of the situation.

It sounds very much like your dog is suffering from some sort of anxiety. Doing anything to make him more anxious, such as correctional type collars etc, will most likely make the problem even worse. (Even in normal situations stress, fear and pain all cause physical and hormonal reactions in the dog which inhibit learning ability and memory - making training even harder!)

Part 1: The crate.

Quite frankly it sounds as if you dog is likely to severely injure himself trying to get out of a crate - no amount of pee is worth that risk. For the time being, forget the crate and just try to protect you floors.


Part 2: Housetraining.

I would strongly suggest going back to basics. Take the dog outside frequently - after meals, first thing in the morning, las thing at night and everywhere inbetween. Find a reward that your dog highly values and praise massively every single time your dog toilets outside. When you find mess in the house, IGNORE it (as far as the dog is concerned). After-the-fact punishment does not work as the dog can not relate the punishment (even just a cross word) with something it did earlier. Make sure all messes in the house are properly cleared up so no smells linger as these wil draw the dog back to the same location. If you do happen to catch the dog in the act, interupt him, take him outside and reward when he goes there.

Part 3: Training.

The second thing I would suggest is doing some basic obediance training with your dog. Use only positive reinforcement methods - you want to build his confidence, not destroy it. Practice every single day, you could even go as far as NILF. It might be worth attending some classes, but ONLY if you can find a good trainer who will not expect you to resort to correction. Clicker training may be particularly helpful - it makes training easier for the dog to understand and most dogs work harder because they enjoy it. One word of warning - if you decide to try clicker training read up about it before you start - many people don't understand how to use a clicker properly.

One command I would particularly concentrate on is the "down stay". Start gradually, from the basic down, to a short down stay and eventually build up to the dog being able to perform a down stay while you go out of sight. This should help to build up the dogs confidence with you not being immediately present.

Part 4: Systematic desensitisation:

It sounds as though your dog seems to have the greatest problem when you are absent, which would indicate some form of separation anxiety. To overcome this you need to get the dog used to being left alone so that it does not stress him out. This has to be done VERY SLOWLY - I really can't emphasise this enough. If you try to move too fast the dog will become stressed again, and you may have to start right back at the beginning.

Here is the general idea....

Max almost certainly recognises the signals that indicate you're about to leave and becomes frustrated or stressed. When you have to leave the house, ignore the dog for the last five-ten minutes before you go. When you get home completely ignore max for the same amount of time. No talk, no eye contact, nothing. After a reasonable amount of time, and only when max is behaving, call him and pet him.

Start with simple "fake" leavings. Get your coat on, pick up your keys, whatever you normally do - then sit back down and don't go anywhere. Repeat - a lot! After many repetitions Max will realise that those signals that used to stress him out are now meaningless. Once you have reached this stage, where Max pays no attention to your getting ready, move on to the next step. This time, go to the door, open it and close it again before sitting back down and staying in. Repeat until Max is no longer bothered by this event. The next stage is to walk through the door, close it behind you, then immediately open it and go back in. Repeat until this is not a problem. Then move on to staying outside for a efw seconds - literally just seconds. Keep building up, VERY slowly, the amount of time you are out before going back in.

If at any point Max becomes distressed, go back to a stage he felt comfortable at and stay at this level until you are sure he is ready to move on.

This will take a while, maybe weeks, and many, many repetitions of every little stage, but eventually Max should be able to accept you leaving without becoming distressed.

Part 5: Hormonal help:

If you can find one I would recommend trying a DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) diffuser. These work like a plug in air freshener but release a chemical that mimicks the pheromone released by lactation bitches to calm puppies. Used in conjuction with other behaviour therapy (such as systematic desensitisation) DAP can be very effective at keeping dogs calm and reducing unwanted stress-related behaviours.

Part 6: Is he bored?

It sounds like Max is always on the go, and trying to find ways to occupy himself. I personally think the house soiling is more likely to be anxiety related - but when looking at his other behaviour problems, he may also be bored.

If this is the case you could try to increase the amount of exercise and mental stimulation he gets to keep him amused. Obvious suggestion would include giving him a stuffed kong, or feeding him his normal dry food in an activity ball so it takes him longer to eat. More, better walks and training will also help to keep his body and mind occupied. A bored dog is a frustrated dog, and a frustrated dog becomes a naughty dog.

Part 7: Further help.

Whether you try out my suggestions or not, consistency is the most important part of anything you try. This problem may take weeks to solve. If nothing seems to work, you should probably seek professional help from a qualified animal behaviourist (not a trainer). Check their credentials first - the should have lots of dog training and behaviour experience and be suitably educated - for example have a degree in animal behaviour. Make sure you are happy with a behaviourist and approve of their theories and methods before letting them near you dog.

Sorry this post has been so long, but I wanted to give you all the help I could. I wish you the best of luck! Please keep us updated.

In response to IslandMutts....If you only knew..

I tried confining him to the bathroom a few times. Left toys, a soft playing radio, and a towel that had my scent on it in there to keep him comfy.
This worked for a few days just fine. No whining, nothing.

One day after coming home from a short trip to the store I heard a faint noise from the bathroom.. and as I approached the door.. little pieces of wood were slowly making their way out from under the door.

MAX WAS CHEWING THE DOOR FRAME OFF.

Both sides of the doorframe, the doorknob, the lightswitch had all been chewed. The doorframe had the worst of it.. 2 inch deep chunks and pieces of wood everywhere. $300 later my doorframe is finally back to normal.

Originally Posted by IslandMutts

if you need to leave the dog alone in the house and the crate obviously isn't working (i can't believe he cracked it open!) then maybe you can leave him in one room of the house with the door shut. this would at least confine the messes to a smaller area until you can work out his behavioral/medical issues. if you have a tiled bathroom that might work, although try it out first without leaving him in there too long. he might damage the door to the bathroom trying to get out, but at least it saves your carpets and floors in other parts of the house. People have given you some great advice here, best of luck.

[IslandMutts]

omg! wow he chewed the doorframe off!

[poohlp]

This is not unusual I think. It is often a sign of separation anxiety. My dog does this if left outside even though he is now fine when left inside in a crate. Your dog thinks that if he can get out of the room, he can get to you. He doesn't know you're not right outside the door.

You know, I'm never one to medicate a dog - in fact I'm generally against it. But if you don't have a case for puppy prozac, I just don't see who does. Maybe some medication would calm him down long enough for you to teach him some new, more positive behaviors and build up his confidence. Then, once he is more comfortable in his skin, so to speak, you could wean him off it.

[Dobermaniac]

I didn't read through all your posts. I have a question. Does all the house soiling occur when you are not home or when your off somewhere in the house away from the dog? If so, this supports seperation anxiety. I also, believe you said your vet said your dog may be depressed? That is usually a result of seperation anxiety. Eightyfour gave you some great advice and I think you need to follow that.

Ideally, a dog with seperation anxiety should never be left alone until retraining has been accomplished, but this is often difficult to arrange. What you need to do is rebuild your dogs confidence and maintain a stress free environment. Continued exposoure to the cause of that fear or anxiety will only reinforce behaviour.

In the mean time I think you need to find a room in your home, which can be covered in newspapers to avoid alot of mess. Also, make sure he has lots of toys to keep him busy and occupied. This way you will restrict him from messing up the rest of your house. This isn't a soloution but a way you can keep him from getting into trouble until one can be found.

Also, I think you need to switch your dog from Nutro. Try getting a better brand of Kibble. Canidae, Solid Gold, Orijen etc...

This site can help you with that.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

[gone2thedogs]

First of all, BLESS YOU for sticking by this dog. In a world where people surrender their pets for the slightest mistakes, you are truly one in a million.

Secondly, I agree whole-heartedly with the previous suggestion to seek out an animal behaviorist, NOT A TRAINER. (Be careful, many trainers will cavalierly refer to themselves as behaviorists when they are not.) Here is an article that describes the difference:
http://canines.com/library/news/doineed.shtml
Your vet should be able to give you a reference to a behaviorist. If not, your local humane society or vet school can probably give you some leads.

I hope you and Max will find the solution to his issues. Please give him a pat for me.

[john tran]

props to you bro, i would have taken old yeller out weeks ago

[eightyf0ur]

Well, it's been over two weeks since Wolfy's suggestions..

I've tried DAP, a new crate, walks more than 8 times a day, slow and patient training, rehearsing leaving, puzzle treat ball, peanut butter kong, and hidden snacks, and even spoke and had sessions with a very costly dog behaviorist.

Not a single step of progress.

Max now craps in the house more than ever.

In an attempt to make his horrible habit of eating from the cat litter box a little friendlier on his stomach, I switched to wheat litter. (Trust me, theres no way to stop him from getting to his favorite snack. I tried moving it from room to room but the cat can't find it and ends up crapping on the floor. So I thought I was clever.. put the litter box safely perched on top of my entertainment center's left tower where my Cat could easily jump to get in and do his business but FARRR above where the dog could reach... so It hought... I came home to find my 5-foot tall entertainment center tower tipped onto the floor, a broken $1000 home theater system, cat litter everywhere, and a very full, guilty and hiding Max.)

Not to my surprise, the dog found the new wheat flavor cat s*** more enjoyable and now eats it like a second meal. Instead of solid stools, I now find piles of mushy, wheat/corn filled diarrhea. Max has lost a considerable amount of weight (down to 45lbs.. he was almost 60lbs) because of all the wheat litter intake and quick output. I'm slowly fattening him up again with a little extra snack here and there and plenty of vitamins.

Needless to say I've switched back to clay litter and nearly scared the living crap out of Max when I caught him poking his nose near the litter box. The cat now has to do gymnastics to get inside as the catbox opening faces almost flush with the wall. The cat slides in sideways and then out. I have 2 very heavy cinderblocks on top of the box now so it cant be moved.

My roommates are sick of walking the dog so much.

He tore the dap dispenser off the wall (its a plug-in) and chewed the bottom half off. Yeah real calming... a $45 electric chew toy.

Speaking of chew toys.. goodbye iPod Nano, headphones, new tv remote, and wallet.

New crate? History. Max now has a 2 inch deep gash on his face from shoving his nose so hard against the crate to get out. He didnt escape this time but cracked my floor to ceiling mirror where the crate was near from rocking it so much.

Another $200 in repairs. Thanks Max.

Still havent gotten the carpet put in upstairs in fear of him crapping on it again.

He now jumps two gates, stacked almost 5 feet tall.. goes upstairs, gets the bathroom door open and drinks the entire toiletbowl of water... and urinates it out downstairs all over the floor.. making sure to miss the training pads.

My house smells like urine. My baseboards are stained yellow. Theres newspaper and puppy pads from wall to wall. The realtors were supposed to come this week to appraise the property so I could sell it.

Cancel that.

I can't even invite friends over anymore.

The dog behaviorist was in awe of all the mess I've been in. When she saw the house, the behaviors, and the damage she immediately asked me why I continue to go on like this?

And I ask myself the same question. I work 73 hours a week.. Max doesnt deserve to be alone for that long inside of a house. My other dog (Oreo, Black & White Canaan) is well adjusted and gets along just fine with the cat in the house.. he waits to go outside, potties on spot when told, and doesnt make a sound. Max is just a rebel.

Eating from the trash can, ruining furniture, destroying homes. A michief maker.

Total damages: $3,120.00

Max is now up for adoption to a loving home who is willing to take care of a special needs dog that has a large, LARGE yard where Max can crap his freakin' brains out all day long and no one will EVER have to mop it again. I will have a very strict screening process ahead of me... my final chore for this dog. I really do love my handsome Max, but I can't take it anymore.

[oscars mum]

My dog did the same thing for an entire year and if i shut the door he would do his business at the door -i brought a dog repellent spray and sprayed the room 3x a day for about a week-that was about 2 months ago he hasnt pooped in there since.the brand is vita-pet and costs about $20NZ

[Barhund Canine]

I am in aggreement with everyone here. Go back to the crate and stick with it. Find one that doesn't have a wire door or put something on the door to cover the door so he doesn't tear his face up. Do not give in to him when he wants out of the crate, he will learn that if he throws a big enough fit you will let him out. Feed and water him in the crate, walk by and give him treats while he is in the crate only if he is not throwing a fit. If he is being good in the crate give him a treat. If you are worried about his welfare while in the crate ask your vet to put him on something to calm him down until he gets used to the idea of a crate. You can also find good aluminum crate that are just about bullet proof. They are expensive.
Control every facet of this dogs life. If he keeps breaking down the barriers or jumps over them digs around them. Put him on a leash and keep him with you the entire time you are in the house, tie it around your waste if you have to. Do not let him have freedom in the house. If you do not have the time or are able to watch him put him in the crate. Put him on a feeding schedule and take him out a few minutes after he eats, then every half hour and encourage him to go potty when he does go praise him and take him back in the house. If you cannot keep constant attention on this guy he is going to continue what he is doing. I seen a pattern in your statement, he does this when you leave for a couple minutes, or you turn your back etc. If you do correct him you will have to catch him in the act or when he goes to squat or hike his leg. A couple of seconds after he does it the correction window has closed.
You've had him to the vet to rule out physical and neurological problems, you've talk to trainers and everything else. I have been able to fix dogs that no one else has been able to. I am often the dogs last chance before euthanization.
I understand your frustration, I have dealt with quite a few dogs like this. Don't feel alone, this is what I have found to work. It will probably take a lot of time, patients and courage on your part. You will have to discpline yourself and educate yourself and be willing to change if you want this dog, and to follow a very regimental program for this dog. It is a lot harder to correct a bad habit than to prevent one. Try not to let your emotions take over. I know that it is a very stressful situation.

Feel free to contact me to discuss this. I am willing to do this free of charge because I do not want to see you loose your mind or give up the dog if you are still willing to deal with him.

My Contact info

John Corbett
Barhund Canine Behavioral Services
www.barhundcanine.com
email jc@barhundcanine.com
phone 330-687-7922

[eightyf0ur]

I work 73 hours, 6 days a week. I barely have time for sleep let alone to walk the dog any longer with my new job.

Max doesnt deserve to be kept up in the house like that.

All my roommates moved out because they couldnt take the stench anymore.. so theres no one home to walk him now besides me.

Whats worse, I cant even show my house anymore to sell it because of all the damages. I've spent thousands on repairs so far because of all the damage that Max has caused.

Most recently, he has peed near the air-handler upstairs so now theres the lovely scent of urine blowing from every vent in the house. It wont go away, either.. I've tried everything to clean it.

Also, I have to drive home almost 30 minutes every 3 hours to walk the dog and make sure he hasnt destroyed anything else.

I really have no time and patience after spending over a year with Max trying to make this work. Its only been getting worse, not better.

Max needs a home with a large yard and a dog door where he can go outside and do his business without anyone letting him out.

I really, really love Max but if I was to continue tending to his needs 24/7 I'd lose my job and my sanity.

I've reached the end of the road with this one.

[shell07]

Wow, I am sure sorry Max has such a problem. We all try to help our furry friends to any extent, but we all have our breaking points, and I sure understand where you are coming from. I envy you for sticking it out as long as you have, you really do have a big heart and show how dedicated you are. It sounds like you need the official Dog Whisperer..really..I wonder if you could submit your story and try it..why not? I don't know how you would do it, but obviously others have problems as well, so... I think he may have had a problem with his previous owners putting him in a crate, or closed in area, maybe,,since he really freaks out while in there..enough to destroy it even. It does sound like separation anxiety disorder also. I don't have any other advice..it really sounds like you have researched and tried all the ideas given here. I sure hope everything works out for you and Max, please keep us posted, and the best of luck to you

[the-tenth]

Originally Posted by shell07

It sounds like you need the official Dog Whisperer..really..I wonder if you could submit your story and try it..why not?

Uh oh.

[shell07]

Is there something wrong with that suggestion?

[Portiparent]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Dont put the collar on him in the crate it will make it worse. He may stop the head bashing, but his feelings about the crate will still be the same and that emotion will probably come out in a different behavior. I would also use the crate and put a "kong" in it and fill it with something yummy, even his own dog food, which you have added water to and frozen, so it lasts longer. You are putting him in there when he is tired (you have run the crap out him) and hungry!! Try it should for a short period of time. As far as the gate jumping goes, be in the room with him where teh gate is adn when he goes for it yell "AH" and clap hands loudly, when he turns or even simply pauses, tell him "yes" and give him a cookie. Hang in there.

Sorry Eighty, didn't read your last post before I wrote. If thats the decision you have come to, its probably for the best.

[Val]

Originally Posted by eightyf0ur

I work 73 hours, 6 days a week. I barely have time for sleep let alone to walk the dog any longer with my new job.

Max doesnt deserve to be kept up in the house like that.

I really, really love Max but if I was to continue tending to his needs 24/7 I'd lose my job and my sanity.

I haven't responded to this thread because frankly you were getting great advice without me butting in. Also, it sounds like you tried just about everything there is.

I'm writing now more in a supportive measure than a helpful one. I've stated in previous posts that I've had dogs all my life. All different kinds from Shepards and Dobermans to Chihuahuas and Poodles and everything in between. My mom was a dog nut when we were growing up and we were never without a dog (or 2 or even 3). I continued that into my adult life.

Fifteen years ago I meet my match though in a Border Collie named Laddie. The story is way too long to go into here but I too ran into a time in my life where I was working VERY long hours and being that he needed SO much and I just couldn't devote the time he required, we had to give him up. I felt bad about it but sometimes it just can't be helped. Don't let anyone make you feel bad about your decision - I'm SURE it's not made lightly. Good luck.

Val

[Ella'sMom]

Wow I am exhausted from reading that post. I feel awful for you. I have a tiny 5 pound puppy that is only 9 weeks old so trust me poop and pee have become my life. But I can't imagine at that age and the amount of poop you are talking about. I wish you the best of luck and hope and pray it all works out for you and Max.

[Shannonp73432]

Okay, this is going to p!$$ some people off but if your going to fire at me just wait until I get my eyes closed.

It absolutly sucks when you feel like your out of options with your dogs. I know I have been there. There once was a time not so long ago (pre poopy and peeing doxie) that I would have said that this was rediculous and any dog can be trained to do anything. At least yours holds it in the crate. The little doxie would pee and poop on his pillow and then lay on it, while in his crate. I am now a wiser person thanks to the doxie.

I tried everything just as you have. I finally came to the conclusion that some dogs are just not meant to be house dogs. Just like people some dogs have different preferences and abilities to do different things maybe (as with my dear little doxie) he's just not going to make a house dog. I'm not saying to rehome him I am just saying think about your needs and his and do what you feel is most fair to both of you. *A Big Hug to You for Your Patients With Him*

"Okay," *closes eyes* "fire away."

Shannon

[the-tenth]

Originally Posted by shell07

Is there something wrong with that suggestion?

There are a lot of people on here who don't like Cesar or his methods, and a lot of people who love him. Nothing wrong with it, it just tends to take over the thread whenever something like this is mentioned.

[shell07]

Well, I do apologize to whomever did not favor that suggestion about the Dog Whisperer..not trying to upset anyone, just merely a suggestion I threw in the pile