[workingdog]

I would go back to the crate and work with him so he feels it's a good place.I would not take my eyes off of him and restart the house training. If this dose not work then i would put him out.I'm sorry but when it comes to my home or a dog my home will win(hands over)

[applesmom]

A dog only has so much poop in him at one time. They can't manufacture poop at will. If he's pooping in such excessive amounts so often, he's most likely being overfed.

Have you tried feeding him smaller amounts or changing to a food that's lower in bulk?

All dogs bowel habits aren't the same. Some dogs, even when going outside will poop a little then do something else for awhile. They'll do this 3 or 4 times before they're completely finished. Other dogs will poop one big pile and they're done.

It couldn't hurt to go back to the basics of housetraining and keep him outside praising him every time he poops until you're sure he can't squeeze out one more turd.

[Durbkat]

I'm not sure if someone has suggested this, as I don't feel like reading thru 3 pages, but why don't you put a small pillow against the door so when the dog rams the door it won't get hurt.

[Dogstar]

Originally Posted by lablover54321

i don't know how well this will work but try this... whenever you find a mess put his nose right in i, spank him, and put him outside. it worked on my friend's dog.

This is completely inappropriate advice.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by lablover54321

i don't know how well this will work but try this... whenever you find a mess put his nose right in i, spank him, and put him outside. it worked on my friend's dog.

This is outright abusive, and should NEVER be suggested on a forum.

[lablover54321]

i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!

Originally Posted by Cheetah

This is outright abusive, and should NEVER be suggested on a forum.

i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by lablover54321

i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!



i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!

Just wondering if you own a dog? You may have said in past post but I didn't go back and read them.

[lablover54321]

Originally Posted by Jen D

Just wondering if you own a dog? You may have said in past post but I didn't go back and read them.

yes, i have a dog, but i NEVER have and NEVER will use that abusive idea on my dog. she is my favorite thing in the whole world!

[eightyf0ur]

I'm back!

Sorry I took so long to come back on, I've been extremely busy.

Here's an update..

I decided to take all of your advice and go back to the crate.

I purchased a plastic one this time to reduce the amount of injury he can cause to himself.

I had to coax him into going inside with treats, leaving the door open. Praising him when he does it. Giving him a positive feel of the crate. I put in a comfy blanket, a chew toy, and a towel that smells like me.

I put him in the crate several times with the door shut while I was home. Silence.. not a peep. No struggling, no complaints.

I left the house for the first time with him being in the crate for about an hour... when I returned the crate was on its side, CRACKED OPEN and Max had urinated EVERYWHERE including inside the crate.

I found him sitting on my $2,000 couch with urine all over the fur on his underside.

I threw away the crate.

Another $85.00 down the tube.

I took Max to a different vet for testing to see if he had a urinary or bowel problem. Again, tests came back negative. He's completely healthy.

I went out and bought peepee pads. He urinated on it once, pooped on it another time. I slowly moved them closer and closer to the door, then OUTSIDE on the grass.

He peed on the grass, which he does whenever I walk him. I went upstairs for an hour, and when I came back down he had made a VERY large urine puddle all over the dining room floor.

This would make the 72nd time I have taken my dining room apart, scrubbed, mopped, bleached and dried the floor in that room. I kid you not, I have done it 72 TIMES.

I bring a pocket full of treats, sometimes even real meat cuts to encourage him that his eliminating outside is a positive thing.

I have also reduced his amount of food and water to the lowest amount possible without starving him.

He has now taken to doing anything possible to get into and eat from the litter box. My cat is allergic to clay litter so I need to use wheat. So now he not only likes to eat the poop from the catbox, but now its even more of a treat because theres wheat in there. Whats worse, it makes his poop smell absolutley horrible and you cant pick it up because it falls apart.

No matter what I do, he gets to the litter box. I put furniture in front of it, he climbs it, moves it, shoves it, or chews it.

I am slowly running out of patience. If I cannot fix this, I'm not sure what else I can do. I may actually have to consider putting Max up for adoption.. my fear is that no one else will want to deal with his problems and try to have him put to sleep.

Can someone please give me any other advice?!

I can't take this anymore!!! My other dog was so well behaved and hes starting to pick up habits from this dog now!

HELP!!!

- - -

To give you more insight into his personality, for instance.. he's not allowed to beg for food.

I make something to eat, he comes up next to me, I say NO BEGGING and point to the other room (my other dog walks away and stays away). Max turns around, steps away for a moment, looks back, and comes back to me. I dismiss him again, he walks around the couch behind me to the other side and comes to see if I'll consider feeding him from the other angle.

Again, NO! and dismissed.

He walks around to the other side of the kitchen, dissapears for a moment, and shows up on the other side of me again asking for food one more time.



He's extremely defiant and has issues listening when

[Curbside Prophet]

You need help beyond what we can offer. You need a certified professional to evaluate your in-home situation. All I can gather from your post are your frustrations and none of that is going to help find a solution. It's sounds like you've given up, and you need someone to offer you frank advice given his living environment. He could very well need to find a home better suited for him, but without a professional assessment, I'd say it's premature.

[lidermar]

3 options retry the crate for at least 2 weeks or make the dog an outside dog and the next time you bring him in you put the leash on and secure him on a mat or next to you. You should not let the dog out of your sight. Why not install a doggie door in the laundry or similar and close the door so the only option is poop in the laundry or for them to go in and out as an alternative

I'd rather the dog be an outside dog than pass the problem on to someone else. The type of food you give is not the issue but you can try a change of diet to be sure.

[TheChinClique]

As hard as it will be, this dog MUST be crate-trained. If you can't crate train him there's a very slim chance that he'll ever be housebroken. Get another plastic crate and build a wooden "box" or buy one that you can slide the crate into to make it extremely sturdy. I've never heard of a dog cracking open a crate...so you're going to have to make it as sturdy as possible. Like I said, I honestly don't see this dog becoming housebroken without crate-training. Keep him in the crate any time you cannot watch him and as soon as you can let him out, put a leash on him and take him outside immediately. When he does his business, reward him with a treat and with a lot of praise. Putting up a baby gate or putting down paper will not solve the problem. I don't really think you need to spend more money on another trainer...you have to find a way to make the crate STURDY so he can't escape, then follow through with taking him outside immediately and praising him like crazy when he does his business. I can't think of any other method that will work. It sounds like you have a huge problem on your hands and I really hope it'll work out after the heck your dog has put you through.

Good luck.

[luv4gsds]

I am with CP on this one. The dog in question sounds like he has some separation anxiety issues. We can give you advice on what type of technique to use but to give you a good solid foundation to work with you will not help from a certified professional.

[Nikole1984]

I had problems with my chow/lab mix too...I changed her food and got a crate. She HATED the crate at first, but now goes into it on her own half the time...usually when the kiddos are too loud-my stepdaughter has mastered the shrill little-girl scream and Raven can't STAND it...so she goes in her kennel to get away. It's turned into her own private space. The door is always open and if she goes in there nobody is allowed to bother her. If the kids get too close to her kennel she'll actually try to pull the door shut with her teeth and lock herself in there willingly lol. Sometimes you just have to be INCREDIBLY patient. There's days where all I do is fantasize about rehoming Raven, but I don't plan on ever going through with it.

[Pawsies]

My input is that you should stop with the crate. He doesn't like it and is obviously not happy with it. It does sound like seperation anxiety but I would sort out the toilet problem first.

Here is what I'd do:
Take him out every 30 mins and after he has eaten/drunk/slept. Take some really good treats with you (but don't let him see them), wait until he eliminates. Once he does, YAY! So happy! Don't leave him unsupervised (except for sleeping) for about a week. Make sure you know where he is. Keep taking him out every 30 mins. It will have to get better, he just doesn't understand right now. If it doesn't, I'd advise getting a friend's dog over provided your dog isn't territorial. When the friend's dog eliminates, make a big fuss. He will probably want some attention too, so he should eliminate.

I would have advised crate training but seeing as it isn't working, I wouldn't put stress on him.

[sillylilykitty]

One way you could keep track of him while your home is leashing him to yourself. That way he cant do anything while your there without you knowing it.

[eightyf0ur]

The main reason I dont want to do a crate again is because of how he injures himself. His muzzle is still scarred from all the effort he put into getting out of the metal crate. He shoved his face so hard at the edges of the crate trying to get out that he cut himself to the bone. He will stop at NOTHING to get out of the crate when no one is home.

He is peeing on the pads now. I cant call that progress but its something.

Another problem is with my job and the hours I work, different people walk him at different times. 2 out of the 3 that walk Max praise him with treats. The others just let him eliminate and return home.

He goes plenty outside and then all over again inside the house.

On a side note, the second vet I went to said he may be suffering from depression.

Just thought you'd like to see Max and his brother Oreo being normal goofs trying to get attention from me when I get home from work....



Oreo is the black and white Canaan. Max is the tan Lab/Chow mix.

I love my boys!

Also,

I keep forgetting to answer the question of what type of food. Max and Oreo both eath Nutro (Natural Choice) Adult Lamb Meal & Rice. Prior to this they were eating Adult Dental Care also by Nutro.

They are both served the same amount as both dogs are the same height, weight, and age range.

They like it! Ive tried other non-filler foods but it just made their poop smell horrible and they had gas for days and days. YUCK!

[AmyB]

Have you tried foods such as Innova EVO or Orijen Adult. Those are 2 of thee best foods and should produce smaller, harder, less smelly stools.

Also you may want to talk to your vet about traquilizers. That may help with the crate. You and your dogwalkers could give him the nessesary doses throughout the day. That is what our Vet gave us for our dog because he was NEVER calm. And while we were gone he would just bark constantly, my neighbors could hear him barking and we have single family homes on 1/2 acre -1 acre lots. I didn't have to ever give them to him because I ended up becoming a stay at home mom but I would have done it.

Another option may be putting him in doggie daycare and then when you bring him home keep him on a short leash attached to you. Anytime you cannot have him attached to you he should be outside. The key is to not even let him have the opportunity to go in the house. I don't know if you said that you have one or not but you should build a covered kennel outside unless he is okay to run in your fenced in yard.

[skelaki]

Dogs are opportunists so the fact that he keeps trying to get you to give him food when you're eating is not unusual.

Frankly, from this most recent post, it sounds as if Max may have a severe case of separation anxiety. If I was you I would talk to your vet about putting him on some medication for this. And, along with the vet prescribed meds I'd use a homeopathic remedy such as one or more of the Bach Flower Remedies (perhaps Rescue Remedy). The homeopathic remdies won't interfere with the prescription remedy.

If by throwing out the crate you mean you tossed it into the garage or something and it wasn't actually damaged, I'd get it out again and start all over. I think you tried to go too fast in your effort to re-train Max to accept the crate. If he's on meds for SA and you go slower trying to advance from one training step to the next in the crate training you both might easily succeed this time.

The only other alternative I can think of right now is to build an outside run with a shade top so he can't climb/jump out and, if he might try and dig out, either a cement flooring or some chicken wire buried under a few inches of dirt along the inside of the run's fencing. That way he could be put into the run when you have to leave the house. You would just have to be sure he had plenty of water and some shelter such as a nice dog house.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_f...cat/all/page/1 You might find this site informative. You'll note that Nutro Natural only rates 2 stars out of a possible 6.

[wolfy]

Firstly, well done for sticking by your dog and trying to work through this situation. I feel for you.

I have a number of suggestions to be used together. The situation has clearly escalated to one of mammoth proprtions and is unlikely to be solved overnight. If you really want to get to the bottom of the problem and cure it, it will take lots of time, patience and consistency. This doesn't sound so much like a training problem as a behaviour problem, so I will recommend a variety of things in order to deal with all opssible aspects of the situation.

It sounds very much like your dog is suffering from some sort of anxiety. Doing anything to make him more anxious, such as correctional type collars etc, will most likely make the problem even worse. (Even in normal situations stress, fear and pain all cause physical and hormonal reactions in the dog which inhibit learning ability and memory - making training even harder!)

Part 1: The crate.

Quite frankly it sounds as if you dog is likely to severely injure himself trying to get out of a crate - no amount of pee is worth that risk. For the time being, forget the crate and just try to protect you floors.


Part 2: Housetraining.

I would strongly suggest going back to basics. Take the dog outside frequently - after meals, first thing in the morning, las thing at night and everywhere inbetween. Find a reward that your dog highly values and praise massively every single time your dog toilets outside. When you find mess in the house, IGNORE it (as far as the dog is concerned). After-the-fact punishment does not work as the dog can not relate the punishment (even just a cross word) with something it did earlier. Make sure all messes in the house are properly cleared up so no smells linger as these wil draw the dog back to the same location. If you do happen to catch the dog in the act, interupt him, take him outside and reward when he goes there.

Part 3: Training.

The second thing I would suggest is doing some basic obediance training with your dog. Use only positive reinforcement methods - you want to build his confidence, not destroy it. Practice every single day, you could even go as far as NILF. It might be worth attending some classes, but ONLY if you can find a good trainer who will not expect you to resort to correction. Clicker training may be particularly helpful - it makes training easier for the dog to understand and most dogs work harder because they enjoy it. One word of warning - if you decide to try clicker training read up about it before you start - many people don't understand how to use a clicker properly.

One command I would particularly concentrate on is the "down stay". Start gradually, from the basic down, to a short down stay and eventually build up to the dog being able to perform a down stay while you go out of sight. This should help to build up the dogs confidence with you not being immediately present.

Part 4: Systematic desensitisation:

It sounds as though your dog seems to have the greatest problem when you are absent, which would indicate some form of separation anxiety. To overcome this you need to get the dog used to being left alone so that it does not stress him out. This has to be done VERY SLOWLY - I really can't emphasise this enough. If you try to move too fast the dog will become stressed again, and you may have to start right back at the beginning.

Here is the general idea....

Max almost certainly recognises the signals that indicate you're about to leave and becomes frustrated or stressed. When you have to leave the house, ignore the dog for the last five-ten minutes before you go. When you get home completely ignore max for the same amount of time. No talk, no eye contact, nothing. After a reasonable amount of time, and only when max is behaving, call him and pet him.

Start with simple "fake" leavings. Get your coat on, pick up your keys, whatever you normally do - then sit back down and don't go anywhere. Repeat - a lot! After many repetitions Max will realise that those signals that used to stress him out are now meaningless. Once you have reached this stage, where Max pays no attention to your getting ready, move on to the next step. This time, go to the door, open it and close it again before sitting back down and staying in. Repeat until Max is no longer bothered by this event. The next stage is to walk through the door, close it behind you, then immediately open it and go back in. Repeat until this is not a problem. Then move on to staying outside for a efw seconds - literally just seconds. Keep building up, VERY slowly, the amount of time you are out before going back in.

If at any point Max becomes distressed, go back to a stage he felt comfortable at and stay at this level until you are sure he is ready to move on.

This will take a while, maybe weeks, and many, many repetitions of every little stage, but eventually Max should be able to accept you leaving without becoming distressed.

Part 5: Hormonal help:

If you can find one I would recommend trying a DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) diffuser. These work like a plug in air freshener but release a chemical that mimicks the pheromone released by lactation bitches to calm puppies. Used in conjuction with other behaviour therapy (such as systematic desensitisation) DAP can be very effective at keeping dogs calm and reducing unwanted stress-related behaviours.

Part 6: Is he bored?

It sounds like Max is always on the go, and trying to find ways to occupy himself. I personally think the house soiling is more likely to be anxiety related - but when looking at his other behaviour problems, he may also be bored.

If this is the case you could try to increase the amount of exercise and mental stimulation he gets to keep him amused. Obvious suggestion would include giving him a stuffed kong, or feeding him his normal dry food in an activity ball so it takes him longer to eat. More, better walks and training will also help to keep his body and mind occupied. A bored dog is a frustrated dog, and a frustrated dog becomes a naughty dog.

Part 7: Further help.

Whether you try out my suggestions or not, consistency is the most important part of anything you try. This problem may take weeks to solve. If nothing seems to work, you should probably seek professional help from a qualified animal behaviourist (not a trainer). Check their credentials first - the should have lots of dog training and behaviour experience and be suitably educated - for example have a degree in animal behaviour. Make sure you are happy with a behaviourist and approve of their theories and methods before letting them near you dog.

Sorry this post has been so long, but I wanted to give you all the help I could. I wish you the best of luck! Please keep us updated.