[Pokerman11]

I’ve raised Dobermans all my life and know a lot about breed. Had an issue with one of my dogs last week perhaps somebody can help me shed some light on the issue.

I have an 18mths old female dobie. Sweetest dog you can imagine, very smart and responds to training better than any dog I’ve owned. Potty trained well, now does the sit/stay and a few other verbal commands with ease.

I have three small boys 4,6,8 that the dog grew up with. They are all one family and especially the 4 year old and this dog really spend a lot of time together. My kids to not harass or torment the dog, but even if they did She would probably enjoy it. The dog just seems more like a lab than a dobie, yes she barks at the UPS man when the other dobie also barks, but never done anything aggressive in her life.

Here is my issue. Last week when a group of friends over the dog went aggressive on this 5 year old boy. The boy just showed up and was not even near the dog. At first I thought the dog was getting aggressive with something else (as there was another dog behind the boy) but about 15 min later the boy was running by himself and the dog make a point to go across the yard and bark and take an aggressive position. She did not bite him that goodness but looked close like she might.

What the heck would make a dog go aggressive on a 5 year old she has never seen? A boy by himself in the yard, not near the dog and only running.

Any clue? Something like this happens again and I’ll have to put her down.

[cshellenberger]

My mother had a female when I was young who would bark at me if I was running, try to pull me off the ground if I lay down outside and would lean against me if I was bouncing too hard on my rocking horse. The neighbor saw her grab my arm one day and try to pull me up and told my mom she was attacking me .

I guess my point is, WHAT was the child doing when she was aggressive with him? What EXACTLY was her response? Just Barking? If so she may have just been warning the child about something she percieved as dangerous. Personally I'd get a behaviorist and a vet involved to modify her behavior. The vet is to do Tests on her Thyroid, Eyes and a tick titer. The behaviorist to observe and give advice. Here are some good resources for qualified behaviorists that use positive methods and can desensistize your girl to whatever her trigger is. In the mean time, keep her away from the kid in question.

http://www.iaabc.org/
http://www.apdt.com/
http://www.ccpdt.org/

[Curbside Prophet]

Without seeing what happened we can only guess. However, there was no damage done, so considering euthanizing this dog is out of place. If anything, it's a call to further socialize your dog around new people, places, and things, including children.

[Pokerman11]

If this dog bits a child for no good reason then it's gone. The comment is not out of place, but lets not focus on it. That's why I am here to try to figure out how to correct this before something bad happens.

As far a socializeing the dog. This house of ours is full of activity. The number of people that come/go is tons. We live on a farm and the dogs have free access in/out all the time with their own pet doors.

I've had dogs my whole life been thru dozens of training clases and can always find ways to explaine behaivor. I'm firm but never hit them, mostly use positive reinforcement, and only negative is verbal (or if on lease). I find my dogs love to do things for me for the reward of love (which they always get). We are quite close to our pets, but there is alwasy lots of activity here.

As a breed dobermans can be protective, and I've seem aggressivn -protectiveness from this one around our childern. That is something we want as we do have coytees, wild dogs and other problem animals around. Last year my other female chased away a bear from the kids. It is why we have the breed. They become part of the family but have work to do. I do not train any of this guard dog into them, only general obedience (come,sit,stay,release). The protectiveness is in the breed.

For some reason somthing set this dog off that this kid was a threat. Thats the response from this dog, I know from the bark and tone - she saw the kid as a threat and went for him. I was 25 yards away, called her name and threw out my negative reinrinforecment word.

The kid is a little bit of a piece of work, if he was near my dog or I would assume it was his fault. Other dogs, even his own can't stand him and some other friends dogs will attack the kid on site (a tea cup sized yorkie).
Perhaps there are kids that dogs hate on sight.

I don't really expect help - just looking for more ideas.

[Ginny01OT]

I think your concerns are very legitimate and in my opinion there is no excuse for the dog to have acted that way around the child, particularly because it was unprovoked. You are absolutely correct being concerned and, even worried. Is this the first child the dog has been around? How old are your children? How old is the dog? How old are your other dogs? Could she be coming into heat? --Could she be pregnant (hormones can be little devils)? What makes her different than your other dogs? Let's try and brainstorm.....

[Pokerman11]

Dog grew up around kids of all ages. My three are 4,6,8 but lots of relatives and friends with other kids.

she is 18mths old (teenager). Good enough petagre for a show dog, but I buy the runts from the littler the breeder can't sell for show, and have them spayed.

Other dog is a 12 year old dobie, also spayed. They best friends. Then there is the other domestic aminals around here. Nearby relatives dogs always over,chickens, horses, cats (Barn and house). Working dogs in with the protective animals. (They are never out of the fence) -lets see what else - oh yea - goats. We also are campers and take the dog to the campgrounds with us (but not yet this year) and she sees others there.

There is a lot of activity all the time with all kinds of critters. The old dobie knows the good animals from the bad and this teenager dobie seems to be doing well. Never bothers the good animals, heck even sometimes sleeps with the house cat.


She always wants to be by one of the family when she can. We did have huge crate training issues, as the dog would panic when in a crate and defecate herself. Vet/breeder could not figure it out. Can't lock her inside as she will panic again when left alone, but does not seem to suffer from seperation. This was another issue worked on with Vet/Trainer. As long as she can get out of the house on her own she is fine. We never figured that one out, but she grew out of it once past puppy stage. One of her littermates had the same issue.

Most active dobie I've ever seen. I know the breed is high energy but this one is beyond the scale. That's okay as we run the snot out of her around here. Every dog is different, and she is much more hyper than my other dobie, but each dog is it's own personality. This one is a lover, must be loved be near people, and happest when running and playing. My other is standoff and reserved.

Okay back to the issue. It is still mind boggeling. Perhaps she was having a bad day, I don't know. Thanks for suggestions

[cshellenberger]

Perhaps the kid did something to her at one time or another you didn't see. If it's only been the one day with the one kid, I'd just be sure they aren't in the same area together. I know kids that age do some pretty stupid stuff.

[Curbside Prophet]

Again, if a trainer came into your home to evaluate the situation, the first question they should ask is how many times the dog bit someone, and home much damage did the dog do? In your case the answer to both of these questions is zero. There's no history that this dog is a problem, therefore the trainer would point to training, not behavior modification for an unknown problem. The training would be modeled after what you don't want versus what you do want. So guess what? If you don't want your dog to be aggressive towards strange children, and you want him to be polite, you train him with strange children with requests to be polite.

Which is it? You say she's protective, yet, you want her to be protective. Then you say she's aggressive, yet you don't want her to be aggressive towards children. How is the dog suppose to know the difference if you don't show them what you want? Instead, you exposed your dog to a strange kid and expected her to be something different than what you know her to be. Yes, the thought of euthanizing her is very out of place considering the fact that you balk at needing to train her more.

BTW, it's nature and nurture, not nature alone. It may be in his breed to be protective, but it's your job to teach her when it's wrong or right. If you leave it to her, she will do what satisfies her, and not you. I'm not trying to be rude here, but obviously I'm turned off by the fact that you threaten to surrender her. Quite trying to figure out what's wrong and teach her what's right.

Also, a tip. Don't use her name when you're going to punish her, even if the punishment is just verbal. Sorry to be so frustrated.

[Pokerman11]

Sorry to offend you curbside as I'm still going to hold to my statement "If this dog bits a child for no good reason then it's gone. The comment is not out of place, but let’s not focus on it." Again I love my dogs so lets please not focus on it. You seem overly focused on it. Let me just add that in my county when a large dog bites animal control takes over and yes “its gone”

Perhaps you need more experience with large dogs. I'm a believer that there is very few bad dogs but a lot of bad dog owners and quite a few dog trainers who can teach a lab to sit but are worthless at much else. Let me also point out my situation is not normal, our environment is not normal.

Dog are not supposed to be aggressive towards small children - End of story. Yes perhaps I’m at fault, but this is not my first dog, and we work on what’s good/bad most everyday. There is a lot of both here, and they have to learn. As you figured out I am around animals my entire life, both domestic and other. I feel what they know, I usually understand what drives them and why.

But to your point I NEVER said I was unwilling to do more training. Not sure how you read into that. In fact that's why I'm here and joined this forum. I'm hear for ideas on what to do. Sorry I don't take criticism well when trying to seek help, but if you wish to turn me off this forum – your doing a great job.

In the end I think I’m following Carla’s theory there. This more/less matches what my trainer thinks. I’m due for the vet next week so get some input there too.

This kid is a monster and this dog is about the smartest I’ve ever had. Not a stranger to us but it's been a few months since the dog has seen him. Also perhaps since my kids were there some new protection is kicking in. Perhaps even this kid was acting aggressive towards my kids and my dog noticed it. Again dogs are not to be aggressive towards small children, no if/ands/or/buts. Something to work on but I don’t think I’ll have to shoot her just yet.

Thanks for the input.

[Curbside Prophet]

My criticism is in concern for the dog, nothing more. If you don't understand this, maybe this forum isn't the best place for you, because I'm concerned you will be turned off again when someone shows concern for your dog. There will be no end to the concern for dogs, sorry.

Good luck in finding the help you need. (written with no sarcasm)

[Ginny01OT]

In New Jersey yesterday two family pit bull (mixes) attacked the 6 year old daughter, she is clinging to her life in a hospital right now. The parents were heard looking at the dogs saying: "Look what you have done, look what you have done". They are in a shelter now. If the parents surrender the dogs they will be euthanized. If the parents do not surrender the dogs it will be a court case to determine their fate.

I wonder, were their signs that this could happen. Were the dogs exerting dominance over this little girl. Was she sticking pencils in their ears (I doubt it). We may never know.

I am sorry but there is NOTHING this six year old girl could have done to deserve being torn apart like a rag doll (which is what a neighbor/witness said it looked like)--not to mention what the neighbors a block away said it sounded like. I would probably have to agree with Pokerman as harsh as it sounds.

[Pokerman11]

Thanks again,

Concern for the dog, sure I can see your point of view. I run into that with other trainers sometimes, expecialy in urban areas that that focus on leash work with first time pet owners without family. Overbalanced IMHO in that the dog is part of the family but still to me -NOT as important as the family. It's a dog not a person.

I know I'm in a minority as many see working/hunting dogs should not be pets. My dogs today are not gun dogs, but even my gun dogs worked out really well as pets.

Being a long time gun dog trainer (retired), living in the woods on a farm with mutiple familys around and free roaming domestics, I'm in a different world. I respect your differences.

BTW your tip about not using the dog's name during commands does not work for me. How am I to control mutiple dogs in the field verbaly without their name? I used to experment with different words for different dogs, but that got too confusing.

This thread is finished for me. Thanks for the help. I'll let you know later if there are any issues.

-Poker

[cshellenberger]

Pokerman, I too was raised with working dogs as companions. I was always taught that if the dog bites (other than accidently) it goes. I express the other than scenario as, when I was three I was running through the house nad fell, landing on the privates of our stud dog, he bit me on the face MY FAULT. He did NOT get put down and I'm glad for that as he was my best friend for many years after.

That said, I do agree with you. If the dog were to deliver a serious bite to a child it would have to be put down. Though I wouldn't do it if it were a warning nip or air snap. What ever you do, be sure you DON'T train the warning system out of your girl, growling and air snapping are just that and you don't want the dog to NOT give warning and JUST BITE.

[skelaki]

She is a teenager of course and as such will test the boundaries of what's permitted. If I read it right the child was running. This will trigger a dog's prey drive. If I was you I'd have a trainer experienced in dealing with aggression such as a schutzhund trainer, French ring trainer, police k9 trainer or personal protection dog trainer come and evaluate her. These people know how to turn aggression on and how to turn it off. You don't want some pet dog trainer for this situation.

I would also put her on a strict nilif program along with daily obedience training. If you Google "alpha dog boot camp" (without the quotes), the first two or three items are the ones you want to check out.

[Dorygirl]

Poker, I do wish you the best of luck with this one. You obviously have the experience, so just go with your gut feeling here.

The hardest part is predicting if and when a dog will bite or attack. It seems that people are always saying, "He never showed signs of aggression before, he's such a sweet, well-behaved dog."
People never think it will happen to them. So you are smart to be concerned at this point.
You will know what to do, so just trust your instincts.

[Jen D]

I had a dog that was everyones best friend but hated my Grandfather! I could not figure it out till one day he pulled in our driveway and the dog went nuts. I didn't like my Grandfather so I really feel that the dog sensed this and knew something was wrong because my mood would change in an instant even though I didn't show it! It sounded like this kid is a monster and people might be gettting stressed out when the kid is around so the dog may be thinking she wants the kid to act right. When I have people over my house all my dogs are allowed to go where they want I don't beleive in locking them down stairs because they need to be social animals. With my Grandfather I did give in and keep the dog in another room when he showed up for the saftey of both. I didn't want to ever have to put my dog down and also didn't want to see my Grandfather bit. I know I could of called in professionals but I don't think it would of helped unless I had got myself a psychologist.

[Pokerman11]

Jen D - I have to laugh at your response. I am wondering do you know of your Grandfather is liked by most dogs or has issues with them?

This 5 year old my dog has issues with - we all love him as he is part of the family, but we all still hate the phase he is in. When he shows up you hear the groan go thru the crowd.

I am starting to believe that there are people some dogs just don't like. They pick up on something, and really dislike that person. This kid is disliked by most dogs, so he might be doing something that triggers different responses.

Like dogs hate coyotes when they see them. They just know a coyote is something to hate. Even thou a coyote looks more like a dog then most dog breeds these days. There is something going on beyond appearances to set them off.

I don’t want to overblown the issue here, it was a minor incident, most would have only seen a young dog and a child running and barking. But I know the tone/response of my dog. I’ll keep an eye on this issues and do what I can. Not going to let that boy around my dogs though, not worth the risk.

Thanks so much. Good information.

Poker

[Jen D]

Pocker, My Grandfather has stressed me out my whole life and I started laughing when you asked if other dogs liked him. Well he had owned hunting dogs that everyone else gave attention to and my Uncles used to hunt with. I don't ever remember him giving any dog attention or any dog bothering him for it. Over 25yrs ago I had a Cocker Spaniel and Gramp Jack lived in the house next door and atleast once a week Gramp Jack would come over to get tools or his gloves because the dog would take them and run. One of my dogs now Kramer and I had gone over there last summer before Gramp Jack passed away and the dog would not go near him. This dog Kramer has even gone into the drug store with me because some of the workers wanted to see him. So now that you have me thinking the answer is no I don't think any dogs liked him! I am not much of a cat person, I don't care to much for them so the one I have now is named Jack, my daughters cat she left me when she moved out.

[Lorina]

Like Jen, I was wondering if maybe, with everyone aware of the way this kid is and how other dogs react, maybe the dog picked up on that hostility? apprehension? nervousness? whatever you want to call it.

[threedognite]

Probably because this boy isn't part of your pack and your dog saw him as a threat to the pack. Dogs are pack animals and people should be careful about allowing strangers around them. If you do any research about wolf packs you will see that they don't usually allow a strange wolf to enter the pack, hence the phrase, "lone wolf".