What do you think about e-collars.

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 05:41 PM

Haven't seen any thread regarding this issue and I know this can be a very controversial subject, but I'm just curious as to what the general conciencious is regarding electronic collars. Does anyone use them? If so, why? Were they recommended by a professional trainer? What are your thoughts?

RonE · 04-26-2007, 05:57 PM

I considered one when my dog was young and out of control but I couldn't visualize a situation where it would actually help.

Now she is much more agreeable and responds well to voice commands, but I'd be interested in hearing any enthusiastic reviews from users who have had success with them.

cshellenberger · 04-26-2007, 06:06 PM

I believe there are better, less risky ways to acheive training. I also think they should ONLY be used by a professional as a last resort, or for snake avoidance.

DFrost · 04-26-2007, 06:14 PM

It depends on what you are using them for. Does the average pet owner need electronics, I wouldn't think so. They are however extremely helpful devices for certain types of training. Dogs that are trained for law enforcement, have to be rock solid both on and off leash. The use of electronics can help achieve that. I do not believe electronics should be used as to administer corrections for behaviors the dog has not learned. That being said, a behavior that has been learned can be proofed at a greater distance, without a leash when necessary. Like many things used in dog training. It is a tool. It has a specific purpose. Used correctly, it can be beneficial. Used improperly, just like any other tool, it can be ineffective.

DFrost

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 06:21 PM

Well, I must confess, I actually use them with the boys. I consider it my invisible leash. Since I have always taken the dogs out to local fields, etc for running, I want to know that no matter how far away they are (or at least up to 1 mile) I have control, no matter what. After a very short time they become 'collar smart' and they just have to have the collars on for them to be effective.

There was one day in particular that I was very glad the dogs were wearing the collars.. We were at our favorite running place, which was a cranberry bog surrounded by woods. Well, didn't a deer decide to see what was going on and the dogs decided to take off after it. I swear if they didn't have the collars on, I'd still be chasing them. It was enough to get their attention back to me so I could call them back.

I have also used the collar to correct some bad behaviors without the correction being connected to me. My last puppy was famous for trying to take dishes out of the sink when I wasn't looking. I put the collar on him, took the other 2 outside and through the window I could see him trying to take dishes out of the sink. Yes, I set him up! Well, I hit the collar and to this day, he has never, ever, done it again.

When I first got the collars, about 10 years ago, the first thing I did was test the levels on myself. I have never gone above level 2. I've never had to. It's more the surprise element than painful. I don't consider it cruel and used properly they are not at all abusive, they are a great training tool. The professionals use them and the K9 trainers use them as well. As I said, they are great for making corrections that you don't want connected directly to yourself. And, they help to reinforce commands your dog already knows.

Does that make me a bad person?

cshellenberger · 04-26-2007, 06:38 PM

If you are using it correctly no. However be warned, if one of your dogs develops a heart arrythmia, it could harm them. It happened to me and I lost a much loved family member.

I am considering putting my dogs into snake avoidance class, it is the only training I would allow them to go through with an E collar. I will have them both checked thoroughly before I allow it.

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 06:43 PM

See, that's something I wasn't aware of. Sorry for your loss. I will now be mindful of that problem.

Ginny01OT · 04-26-2007, 07:06 PM

I have to Renoman, I use it specifically for off leash training when we go up to PA. Mine had a vibrate button on it and when Riley was younger I would hit the pager button if he jumped up on the counters or totally harassed the cat. I had a professional trainer in who taught me how to use it properly. When it is used properly it should not do any harm. It is the equivalent to e-stim you would get from a chiropracter or physical therapist if you had a muscle injury (or an OT would use it on a stroke patient to create a muscle contraction). The frequency should be nothing more than a constant "poke" on the shoulder.

Alpha · 04-26-2007, 07:19 PM

We achieved our off leash walks/hikes without the use of an e-collar. Now I know obviously, some dogs are going to be harder to train a reliable recall/here command when offleash, my personal experience, is, it was achieved in our household without the use of an e-collar.

With that being said, I own an e-collar, and have used it for a few issues with Roxy. I did use it to proof recalls with both of them, but just used the noise button, I didn't have to stimulate them.

I agree with Dfrost, I think the average pet owner doesn't need an e-collar to achieve "normal" things, unless it's a serious issue, like running off, chasing cars etc.

I think too many people think the e-collar is a magical fix for everything, when it trully isn't.

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginny01OT

I have to Renoman, I use it specifically for off leash training when we go up to PA. Mine had a vibrate button on it and when Riley was younger I would hit the pager button if he jumped up on the counters or totally harassed the cat. I had a professional trainer in who taught me how to use it properly. When it is used properly it should not do any harm. It is the equivalent to e-stim you would get from a chiropracter or physical therapist if you had a muscle injury (or an OT would use it on a stroke patient to create a muscle contraction). The frequency should be nothing more than a constant "poke" on the shoulder.

You are absolutely right! As I said it is more the element of surprise than pain. I have never gone above level 2 and never had to. My dogs have always been professionally trained, but the e collars are for the times we go out to the field and I want to be rock solid sure I have voice command control over them when they're on the other side of the field. If they even think I'm faking it, they will stand there and thumb their noses at me. That's what I love about GSDs. They will always test you to see what they can get away with.

RonE · 04-26-2007, 07:30 PM

Good stuff here.

There are lots of tools I'll probably never need, but it's still interesting to here a little about how and when they might be used.

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 07:42 PM

I guess I stirred the pot here. Wasn't my objective, however, it is what it is.
I use the collar and I make no excuses for it. I feel it works best for my situation and I sought out the knowledge and training to use it correctly before purchasing it. As I said, the professionals use them when training K9s and Schutzhund training uses them often. I agree, that used incorrectly it can be harmful and an abusive device.

I learned something regarding health issues and the collar and I will be mindful of those issues in the future.

Captbob · 04-26-2007, 07:44 PM

Most people know nothing about E Collars and how they are used. They think they are the way they were 20 years ago, when they were first introduced. I use an E Collar with my dog for recall at distance. When I meet another dog owner and they ask about it, I take it off my dog and ask them to put it on their wrist and activate the collar. They are amzed that all they feel is a slight tingle rather than feeling like they are being electrocuted, as they expected.

You can teach a dog to remote recall, or heel or downstay at a distance, in a small fraction of the time that it would take to do with a ordinary leash and collar. It is also much gentler on the dog than correcting it with a leash and prong collar. Most E Collar negative opinions are made by people that have never used one and don't know anything about them and how they are used. The easiest way to get up to speed on an E Collar is to get a trainer that is experienced in using one, and take a few lessons. You will be amazed at how fast your dog will learn. There is a good DVD that is available that gives a good foundation on how to use an E Collar, but I would still recommend using a Trainer, if one is available in your area.

Here is another site with info on E Collars ( remote collars)
http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/index.html
Here is a manufacturers web site for one of the better brands of collars
http://www.dogtra.com/

http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

I believe there are better, less risky ways to acheive training. I also think they should ONLY be used by a professional as a last resort, or for snake avoidance.

What, may I ask, is the "risk", in using an E Collar? Have you ever used one, and how?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginny01OT

I have to Renoman, I use it specifically for off leash training when we go up to PA. Mine had a vibrate button on it and when Riley was younger I would hit the pager button if he jumped up on the counters or totally harassed the cat. I had a professional trainer in who taught me how to use it properly. When it is used properly it should not do any harm. It is the equivalent to e-stim you would get from a chiropracter or physical therapist if you had a muscle injury (or an OT would use it on a stroke patient to create a muscle contraction). The frequency should be nothing more than a constant "poke" on the shoulder.

Many instructors will tell you that the vibrate button on the E Collar will probably startle the dog more than the normal Stim correction. I never use the vibrate on mine.

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captbob

Most people know nothing about E Collars and how they are used. They think they are the way they were 20 years ago, when they were first introduced. I use an E Collar with my dog for recall at distance. When I meet another dog owner and they ask about it, I take it off my dog and ask them to put it on their wrist and activate the collar. They are amzed that all they feel is a slight tingle rather than feeling like they are being electrocuted, as they expected.

You can teach a dog to remote recall, or heel or downstay at a distance, in a small fraction of the time that it would take to do with a ordinary leash and collar. It is also much gentler on the dog than correcting it with a leash and prong collar. Most E Collar negative opinions are made by people that have never used one and don't know anything about them and how they are used. The easiest way to get up to speed on an E Collar is to get a trainer that is experienced in using one, and take a few lessons. You will be amazed at how fast your dog will learn. There is a good DVD that is available that gives a good foundation on how to use an E Collar, but I would still recommend using a Trainer, if one is available in your area.

http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm

Thank you for backing me up on this. I was beginning to feel alone and adrift out there. You're right a trainer is the best way to go and more and more trainers are turning to the e-collar to reinforce verbal commands and off leash training.

Captbob · 04-26-2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renoman

Thank you for backing me up on this. I was beginning to feel alone and adrift out there. You're right a trainer is the best way to go and more and more trainers are turning to the e-collar to reinforce verbal commands and off leash training.

Many people are now finding out that they can use them for basic training. I spoke with a trainer that told me she can train a dog so much faster with an E collar, and the dog retains the training so much better than Leash-collar training, that she suggests to all her clients to use the E Collar Training. I watched her train a dog to heel, in about an hour. This dog was an out of control puller, that needed a Prong collar prior to this training, in order to keep it from yanking the owner all over the place. Now the owners 10 year old daughter can walk the dog.

Renoman · 04-26-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captbob

Many people are now finding out that they can use them for basic training. I spoke with a trainer that told me she can train a dog so much faster with an E collar, and the dog retains the training so much better than Leash-collar training, that she suggests to all her clients to use the E Collar Training. I watched her train a dog to heel, in about an hour. This dog was an out of control puller, that needed a Prong collar prior to this training, in order to keep it from yanking the owner all over the place. Now the owners 10 year old daughter can walk the dog.

A Police K9 trainer once told me that 1 good correction was better than 100 little nagging corrections. I have found that to be very true.

Alpha · 04-26-2007, 08:54 PM

I have to seriously disagree that e-collars should be used for basic training, why?

Basic training with 99% of the dogs out there in the world does not require an aversive like an e-collar or even a prong.

Both of my dogs, completely different in personality, and how they learn, have a tonne of excercises down pat that were done without the aid of an e-collar, and they aren't "normal" or average pet owner excercises.

When it comes to aversives, I start out with none, than slowly work my way up the ladder, from verbal aversives, to leash corrections and my last resort for some dangerous behaviours from Roxy was the e-collar. Definitely not the first training aid I reach for when we meet an obstacle in training.

I completely agree with, and understand using an aversive like an e-collar for a behavioural issue that is not ceasing with all the other methods, but I guess I'll never understand why someone would choose to use the e-collar as their FIRST and ONLY training tool with a dog.

Renoman- I also agree that one good correction is much better than a bunch of nagging, but what people don't understand, is the e-collar or some more "harsh" aversives, are NOT for every dog. If you slapped an e-collar on my Hades and used it as your only training method, you'd have a dog that didn't want to work. One good correction for my Hades is a sharp verbal correction.

The e-collar is NOT for every dog, and many of the e-collar trainers I've spoken with will agree.

I think the general public needs to be educated about the topic, but it needs to be made clear that it shouldn't be: 1) your only method 2) Your first method.

There are a tonne of less invasive methods out there, that work just fine with 99% of the dog population when it comes to joe average's pet dog.

cshellenberger · 04-26-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captbob

What, may I ask, is the "risk", in using an E Collar? Have you ever used one, and how?

I think if you read a little further down you'll see that I have and lost a dog to one. Which I also think I've discussed SEVERAL times before. Don't care to dredge up bad memories.

Alpha · 04-26-2007, 09:04 PM

Renoman- Don't take offense to this, I hope it doesn't sound offensive, it's not trully

Just some honest questions!

You say that your dogs are now collar smart and they have to wear the collar for it to have an effect correct?

IMO, this is not a good training tool. A good training tool, is just that. You use it, it works, you stop using it, like a crutch. You use it while you have to, than you stop.

My dogs, one which is human agressive, another which is pitbull and can tend to be "gamey" in some situations, are off lead everyday, and have a 100% reliable recall, without any collar on.

Wouldn't a better method, be one that you use, works, and that's it?

I mean, to me, it's comparable to having to use food EVERYTIME as a lure to get your dog to sit. It's not a very good method if you have to use it even after the dog is performing said behaviour right?

That's just my take on how you posted your experience with the e-collar. If your dogs have to use this tool ALL the time to perform said behaviour, it's not a good method, or one that's very "complete", balanced or overall effective.

Renoman · 04-27-2007, 04:54 AM

No offense taken. My dogs are always professionally obedience trained to voice commands and hand signals. The collar isn't my only method of training, never said it was.

I personally use the collar as I said before 'my invisible leash' when the dogs are running the fields. It is my 'back up' because you never know what's going to happen. I would rather have the collars on them and not use them than not have the collars on and need them.

I also use the collar to address issues that need fixing but I don't want the corrections to be connected to me, I want a definite cause = effect for the dog, i.e. taking dishes out of the sink when I'm not in the room. When I verbally corrected him he was great as long as I was in the room. Still did it when I left the room. He needed a correction that had no link to me. Like dogs that get into the trash. How many do you know do it right in your face? They usually wait until no one's looking, right? If going into the trash becomes unpleasant and no one is around then the correction is connected directly to the trash and not any one person.

No, the collar doesn't work for every dog, but for some dogs it is the only way to change a specific unwanted behavior or to confirm a command. I've seen some hard working, high drive dogs that could only be controlled with the use of a collar because they were so intense and so driven to do their jobs they did not hear verbal commands.

Yeah, these guys are collar smart - they see the collars come out and they know they're going for a run. They also respond better to commands when they have the collar on .... like deciding to chase a bunny or come when I call. Usually they make the right choice. What if they didn't have the collars on? They can make bad choices (like chasing that stupid deer).

As I said before, I did my research and I talked to some professional trainers. I used the collar with the help of my trainer and with the understanding that if I did not like it, I would return it. So far, it's the best money I've ever spent and it's proved itself worth every penny on several occasions.

E-collars are a personal preference. Everyone has an opinion and no one is right or wrong. It all depends on your situation.