[Renoman]

First, let me say I never thought I'd see this thread brought back to life!
I know I've said this before but... my guys are professionally obedience trained. They are confirmed in their commands, but they are not mindless robots. They sometimes need commands reinforced for whatever reason. Since I take them out and let them run in safe, appropriate places, I'd like to know how I'm supposed to reinforce a command from 100 yards away? Spray them in the face? I'd need a powerful spray bottle for that wouldn't I? I really don't think spraying them in the face would work if they're 100 yds away and get focused on chasing a deer. I think I'd be freaking lucky if I found them by dark.

I agree that dogs should not be trained using a remote trainer. I personally think they are a great tool for reinforcing commands already learned or breaking bad habits. When used to break a bad habit, the remote collar is invaluable because you don't have to say a word. The dog will associate the tone or nick (yes, it is a nick not an electrocution!) with the habit not you. I use them primarily as a means of controlling my dogs when they are off lead.

By the way, dogs being dogs, when these guys see the collars come out, they get uncontrollably excited because they know they're going for a run. There is no negative reaction to the collar here. Handled correctly, there shouldn't be.

Just a question Wolfy, have you ever used a remote trainer? Are you a trainer? You have some pretty strong opinions and I'm just curious what experience you've had to base your opinions on. Not being rude, just curious

[Alpha]

I agree wholeheartedly Ginny.

I see the "spraying" technique being reccomended a lot, often with substances like vinegar diluted in the bottle. I don't know how acidic substances feel to a dog when sprayed in their eye, but I do know, that in my mind, when I compare the shock from an e-collar, to being sprayed in the eye, the latter is definitely at the bottom of my list.

Besides, it's just not practical for what I used the e-collar for. As Reno said, it's just not feasible to spray a dog from 100yards away.

Between the two aversives, the setting that most use on e-collars, and spraying a dog in the face, I would say the e-collar is LESS aversive.

I don't use my e-collar often, actually other than once with Roxy, once using the sound button for reinforcing recalls in heavy distraction settings and the other situation I mentioned with Hades, it sits in the closet. BUT, for the latter situation, I was glad I had it. It came in awful handy for a dangerous behaviour, that could've lead to more fights between my two dogs or a serious injury for Roxy.

I think most people on this board use the e-collar sparingly and coupled with enough reward that their dogs aren't scared or in pain. It's a personal decision, mine is, it's come in handy for ceasing an unwanted behaviour and I like to have that option, even though it's not a training tool I use in our everyday sessions.

[Curbside Prophet]

It's very simple to tell whether an e-collar, or any other training tool for that matter, is effective...count how many stims you use one week versus how many stims you use in another week, and under the same conditions. If the total number of stims in the earliest week is less than the total number of stims in the later week, it's working and we can deem it effective. I can't argue with a trainer/handler that gathers this kind of information. The proof is in the numbers, so long as the dog isn't visibly agitated or stressed.

However, back to my point about the average dog handler...very few, if any, have the timing necessary to see any effect on the quantity of stims from week to week. And to this point I have to argue, is it effective? IMO, no. I would say the same about a clicker. If you're still clicking for sits weeks later, the clicker isn't working, it's not effective...at least in your hands, we need to try something else.

In regards to the e-collar, this to me is where the difference is between what is humane and what is not. To not move on to another form of training, and to keep stimming a dog, after you've proved the number of stimms isn't reduced over time, IMO is does bring in the question of humanity...regardless of what we humans perceive the aversive to be.

I think were people get lost in the e-collar discussion is when all they know is the horror stories, and there are many. But there are probably more positive stories overall. This doesn't qualify the e-collar as an effective tool, however, you still need to provide the numbers.

[Alpha]

In regards to the e-collar, this to me is where the difference is between what is humane and what is not. To not move on to another form of training, and to keep stimming a dog, after you've proved the number of stimms isn't reduced over time, IMO is does bring in the question of humanity...regardless of what we humans perceive the aversive to be.

What an excellent point! As with *any tool* we use in dog training, it's just that: You use it, it works, you don't need to use it anymore. Perhaps the odd touch up here or there but if your still using a "heavy" aversive (I don't ever really think verbal aversives are expected to be totally phased out, I mean aversives like prongs, chokes, e-collars whatever, a *physical* aversive I suppose) than the method your using is not working and it's time to move on.

I think the e-collar is an effective tool, when used properly for the right reasons. I don't think the numbers would show it's an effective tool because of how often it's used improperly. If that makes sense. Perhaps some behaviours are ceased, (when it's used improperly) but others will most likely arise out of it's misuse.

[Veltish]

Ill say..this thread has totally changed my veiws on things.

i used to HATE and be totally against e collars. it started when i was about 9yrs. old. my brother bought one from a garage sale and put it on my toy poodle and then whie he was in the bathroom my younger brother( not knowing any better) played with the remote. shocking my poodle continuously. i was upstairs watching TV on the couch at the time and i heard SHRIEKING in the basement. i ran down there to find my poodle freaking out,yelping.. running all over tail tucked and scared to all heck.

im not sure what level it was on.. i never thoguht to check.. i was young and just wanted to get it off my baby. my brothers snotty remark was that he was a whimp..but after trying it on himself and thinking it hurt a little bit.. i made him realise how it must have felt on a dog that only weighed 8 or 9 lbs. never the less he was grounded and i hated him for EVER for it.. ive been against those things ever since... gosh..years and years ago..but i still get sick to my stomach thinking about it.

but after reading the several posts on this thread i realise the good they can do. my boyfriend has been thinking about getting one for gauge who has a major problem with running away when you call him and he has no intention of coming any time soon. and now he's begun to run under vehices to get away and he can almost outrun my boyfriend now, so its getting out of hand.. thats a German Shorthair for ya though... i spite the little devil but he's so darn cute.. lol. but i guess im considering not freaking out if he brings one home for gauge.

[wolfy]

Alpha - I'm curious - do you actually take pleasure in dedicating an entire post to sla**ing me off?

Let me put this simply. I have very strong feelings about animal welfare. Shock collars are painful. They are unecessary. Result = unnecessary suffering for the dog = morally questionable. That is the reason I may come across as accusatory.

Firstly - let me explain the spray thing, as no one seems to have a clue what I'm talking about.
There are such things as remote collars and bark collars that do not work by giving the dog an electric shock. Instead they squirt a puff of water under the dogs chin (it would have to be a funny shaped collar to squirt him in the eyes!) The strength of the squirt is equivalent to one of those hand held water bottles you mist houseplants with. In most cases the water is scented, usually with citronella. This is harmless, but dogs do not like the smell. The collar works primarily as a distraction (the squirt) and a mild aversive (the nasty smell). In this sense it works much the same as a shock collar, only without the pain factor. For these reasons yes it has the same risks of wrong associations etc as the shock - but because it is non-painful and does not trigger a fear response is less likely to cause fall-out behaviour problems such as aggression. Again, I would certainly not recommend a spray collar for standard training, although I can appreciate they may be useful in certain circumstances. Many of the cases where shock collars are used spray collars could be used to equal effect with no pain and lower risks.

For those of you that assumed I was actually suggesting squirting acid into a dogs eyes, oh please - do I really come across as some as some sort of sadist?

Now, the reason I object to the word "stimmed" is a matter of personal experience. Most of the people I have come across who use the word "stimmed" are those that know they are inflicting a painful electric shock on their dog and try to cover it up by using nicer, gentler sounding vocabulary. These same people also always use the word "correction", rather than "punishment" or for the same reasons. It makes them sound much more humane than they actually are.
Now before anyone gets offended by that note the word "most" at the beginning. I know lots of people use the two words discussed above, and not all are sadists or or those trying to cover up - but by using nice fluffy vocab that is how they come across.

Renoman - my opinions on shock collars come primarily from extensive research and study of dog behaviour. My degree involved a lot of animal behaviour work, including learning theory, operant conditioning etc and a certain amount of biology of behaviour. I know that pain, fear and stress inhibit learning = this is scientific fact! The sole purpose of physical aversives such as shocks (as opposed to pure distracion) is to cause pain - not necessarily agony but pain all the same. If you actually take the time to study animal behaviour, dog behaviour, learning theory, etc you would start to see why certain methods are fundamentally flawed, or at least difficult to use and risky. A great many proffesional dog trainers train without these devices - including dogs in the forces, service dogs, competitoin dogs, pet dogs etc - which leads to the obvious conclusion that they are unnecessary. By definition - IF you are doing something aversive to the dog, and IF that action is unnecessary then it is simpl needless violence. There are also extensive examples of dogs that have been seriously damaged (physically or psychologically) by these collars, either through normal use or malfunction so this is not out of the question. And while I have not trained a dog with a shcok collar (and never will) I have tried one myself and it does hurt.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by wolfy

I know that pain, fear and stress inhibit learning = this is scientific fact!

There's no scientist in the world that would try to prove this "fact" in our current political environment. I'm not aware of any scientific evidence proving this "fact". If so, I'd love to see it. Are you basing this statement on Skinner's work and the theories many have made from there? Because I'm sure PETA would have a field day if they knew this kind of evidence was being produced.

Thus my point on, show me the numbers. Test-train-test, that's all we as dog handlers can do to prove a given tool is effective. I've told others here that my would rather I kick her than raise my voice. Yelling at her emotionally crushes her...yet, I wouldn't constitute that as painful nor inhumane in an emergency situation. Stressful, yes, but not painful. The aversive can only be determined by the dog, not by how we perceive it. But we can make better judgements if we look at the numbers. In the same breath though, I can't argue with your humanity.

I agree that other methods should be exhausted first before using a tool, and as a human I agree that e-collars can be used to deliver pain, and I agree that we should approach dog training as humanely as possible, but if an e-collar can save a dog's life, it's still an option IMO...even if it's being used only because the handler is unwilling to try other methods of training.

[Barhund Canine]

It's just like anything else any tool in dog training can have adverse effects on the dog. I have used e-collars and have had great succes with them. It completely depends on the temperament of the dog and what behavior you are dealing with, and the situation. Most of the time if one is used a low setting is all you need which is usually less than the stimuli you receive if you have ever had a Dr. use electric stimulation on you. A lot of trainers like to use an e-collar for what they call escape training. Which in my opinion is forced training because they apply stimuli until the dog follows the command. It is also correct that you cannot correct an obedience command a dog does not know. The e-collar should not be used as the first tool of choice either there are a few rare exceptions I can think of, and that would even be a well thought out plan. I agree that most average dogs will not need an e-collar and will work well with most training methods. Again it all depends on knowing your dogs temperament and how well it is initially trained. I see people get screwed up on operant conditioning and classical conditioning, and clicker (marker) training. You have people on both ends of the spectrum. You can humanely correct a dog whether with a leash, collars, e-collars, positive reinforcement. Believe it or not you can build motivation and have a dog get more focused by using corrections, they can be leash corrections, cue words or other forms like a noise of some sort to let the dog know the behavior is unwanted and you are asking something else, There are a lot of myths that surround what works and what doesn't work from proponents from both ends. When dealing with behavior or training issues one needs to understand how a dogs mind works, there are a lot of factors involved from breeding practices, genetics, the dogs experiences, and the interaction it has with humans. One needs to also know the proper timing to give reinforcement, give corrections, and give affection. If you give affection to a dog that is stressed and in a fearful state and you give affection and try to console them it will tend to reinforce the behavior. It also applies to a dog showing aggression by growling and snapping. Over correcting or undercorrecting will give you problems also. You over correct you have a dog that goes completely submissive and usually gets fearful, undercorrect and you have a dog that does what they want when they want. You give them affection and tell them that it is ok you will reinforce the aggression. It gets very complicated and takes years to learn the theory of corrections, positive reinforcement, and understanding what drives, motivates, and takes motivation away. The best trainers I have seen have learned to use methods from the entire spectrum of theories, methods and techniques. These are the people I have learned from. I have seen a lot of certified behavorists stuck in one mode also. A good behaviorst will also be vary versatile and open to the owners and the pets needs. I am basically a third generation trainer that started with my grandmother to my father and then to me. Dog training has went from one extreme to the next. Most of the time a dogs behavior is directly related to the interactions with humans. It's very hard for people that doesn't have very much experience to sift through the BS. There is no quick fix things like fix your dog in six days. There are no instrunction manuals on how to deal with each problem in a specific way explaining this is the best way to deal with this or that. Each owner is different and so are their dogs.The biggest thing to correcting problems is applying the proper leadership skills, along with applying rules, boudaries and limitations and figuring out how to humanely and correctly applying exercise, discipline and affection. It takes a lot of time, patients, and experience to become a resposible pet owner, trainer, or behaviorist. Another misconception that is flying around by certain crowds is that there are no alpha dogs or pack behavior in domestic dogs. I beg to differ because I see pack behavior everyday, and deal with it everyday. That is another important thing to understand. The difference between pack behavior and how to deal with it and the difference of obedience training and knowing when a dog knows a command, working with those commands, knowing when to add distractions, how to divert the dogs reactions to distractions, and maintaining the commands. Learning the timing to deal with everything is critical, only experience and working with your pet will give you that. Learning and undestanding body lanquage, gestures, vocalizations, and the behavior your dog is exibitng at the time. It can also be very difficult to find out when the unwanted behavior started and why, because by the time people realize that there is a problem it has escalated from behavior they thought was cute as a puppy or completely missed the signs and didn't discourage because they thought it was a charactaristic of a breed and dismissed it or misunderstood what was happening. I would have to disagree with the comment on stress inhibiting learning, in certain sports and training stress is used to moitvate a dog to perform, I will agree that if someone doesn't understand using stress to pull certain drives out of a dog and pushes them over the edge can inhibit learning. In a common house pet yes stress can be very detrimental and damaging. The best way to dealing with problems and training is prevention by educating yourself finding the best possible techniques and methods you are comfortable using, and talking to people that have happy, stable, well behaved dogs and finding out what they did and do to accomplish this.

[Alpha]

No wolfy, I don't take pleasure in "sla**ing" you off... whatever that means...

I was just stating my opinion on the comparison between what I thought you were talking about (something that is often reccomended, at least something I see a lot) to the subject at hand.

I personally don't believe that the e-collar causes, PAIN, per se. At least not, internally damaging, mind wrenching pain. I do believe that it makes a dog uncomfortable, perhaps scared (if they don't know where the shock is coming from). Yes it would be painful if you had it on a high setting, but I personally don't view the shock from the e-collar, (at least where mine is set) to be painful. Uncomfortable, yes, that's why it works. But painful... that's stretching it for me.

Do I believe it causes unneccessary suffering for a dog? Hmm, I'd have to say no, unless it's set at too high a level. Suffering's a pretty strong word, and I personally don't believe that it's proper word for MY personal use of the e-collar.

Pure distraction? That is what you reccomend?

Why then did you state to use a spray collar? A spray collar is definitely not distraction, it's an aversion.

The sole purpose of physical aversives such as shocks (as opposed to pure distracion) is to cause pain - not necessarily agony but pain all the same.

I mean that there. Are you saying that people use shocks, instead of using what they should be using, "pure distraction"?

What if you don't have a distraction/motivation great enough to deter your dog from doing said behaviour?

I will tell you this, when Hades is in terrier mode, I could have a dripping in blood sirloin steak and it wouldn't matter. I could whoop and holler and have a blast and he wouldn't care. He's in TERRIER mode. One track minded, high drivey, don't give a darn what I say or do mode.

I do use distraction with him often in training, even in that mode, when my other dog, or anyone else is NOT at risk. When it's a safe place for him to continue doing the unwanted behaviour while I try to distract and reward. But in this circumstance, this was NOT a safe place for him to continue this behaviour. This was a dangerous situation for my other dog, and even Hades if Roxy decided to correct. (Which she has before and it resulted in a gash, now scar about an inch above Hades eye)

So your humane answer would be keep him on leash? Walk them separately?

Shucks, that just ain't feasible. And lord knows I can ask him, but he can't answer, but as his faithful, loyal, loving and caring parent, I know his answer. Three shocks compared to hours of fun romping with his favourite pals?

My sig pic says it all. (They aren't cropped in next to each other! haha )

My dog's offleash privileges were at risk. I had a choice. I made it. He's not mentally scarred. His outlook on walks has most definitely not been dimmed. And my goal, to stop Hades from bulldozing Roxy was achieved. I don't use it anymore for this purpose. That's a good tool in my eyes. I used it, it worked and everyone's for the better.

[Aussiefan]

I think under certain circumstances with certain dogs an E-Collar can be helpful AFTER being trained on how to use them. I do find it funny that some people are DEAD set against E-Collars yet are perfectly happy recommending invisible fences...interesting logic seeing how its the same concept, same shock...

[Ginny01OT]

Originally Posted by Aussiefan

I think under certain circumstances with certain dogs an E-Collar can be helpful AFTER being trained on how to use them. I do find it funny that some people are DEAD set against E-Collars yet are perfectly happy recommending invisible fences...interesting logic seeing how its the same concept, same shock...

Actually my trainer told me that an invisible fence uses a much higher frequency ("shock") than an ecoller.--The fence actually cause pain where the collar causes an annoyance.

[Love's_Sophie]

I use them only as a last resort to difficult or unmanageable dogs; I use them in conjunction with conventional methods and try to 'get rid' of them as soon as I can...

[2boys1princess]

We have one for Leah. We only use it for when she tries to go after our cat (we have 3 cats but she only wants to chase the orange one for some reason). We've only had to use it twice and she doesn't bark at or chase the cat anymore. In fact, we found them sitting about a foot apart today on the porch, both resting comfortably Big step up from last week!

My husband and I both put it on our own hands at the lowest level (there are 7 levels). My husband could hardly feel it but I thought it felt like when you bump your funny bone. Irritating and tingly but nothing too horrible.....I would imagine that the higher levels are downright painful but we only use the first level for Leah.

Tracy

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by 2boys1princess

My husband and I both put it on our own hands at the lowest level (there are 7 levels). My husband could hardly feel it but I thought it felt like when you bump your funny bone. Irritating and tingly but nothing too horrible.....I would imagine that the higher levels are downright painful but we only use the first level for Leah.

IMO, testing these collars on ourselves is pointless. I defy any human to *feel* the static charge of an approaching storm, and find the best place to be grounded, like a dog can, with human senses (insert poor before human). The gap in perception with tests like this is so unbridgeable that it's like asking your dog to have the same sensory response to a van Gogh painting as you do. What we feel is not what the dog feels, and we shouldn't use a test like this to justify their use.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by Love's_Sophie

I use them only as a last resort to difficult or unmanageable dogs; I use them in conjunction with conventional methods and try to 'get rid' of them as soon as I can...

Excellent post!

[Rowdy]

We use an ecollar on Cameron to stop deer chasing. He's taken off after deer and followed them across streets and down into the woods where there can be hunters. That is not acceptable. It's too dangerous to let him do that.

We tried everything we could think of to get him to not chase deer. We worked with a trainer for a long time. Finally we got the collar.

We taught him the command "Stop" first. We did it on the leash and then off the leash. The ecollar did not go on him until we knew that he knew "Stop". We also agreed that the ONLY COMMAND that we would reinforce with the collar was Stop.

Cameron knows when the collar is on and mostly will not run when it is on. We have had to use it a few times. Once he starts running he doesn't hear us yell or he doesn't pay attention. Each time the collar has worked. It gets his attention enough that he listens to us call for him to come.

I'd much rather have a dog that feels a very short shock than a dog that is hit by a car or that gets shot. But, like I said, this was the last resort and we use it for only one command.

[Occy]

If the choices are e collar or death, e collar wins. Have jut recommended it to a friend whose dog is going to be roadkill if she cant curb her chasing behaviour. She has tried everything else and this is their last option

[houndhugger]

I'm new to this forum, and have been trying to research e-collars, and educate myself, as I am considering using one.
May I say I appreciate how civil this forum has been. I am a coonhound owner, along with owning a senior lab. I have owned and trained many breeds of dogs through my years of having the honor to share my life with my dogs.
But I have hit the thorny point of dealing with a hunting dog, who is not hunted, but is a companion animal. Who was bred to follow his nose. And to follow it well, to the exclusion of everything else. He is maybe 2-3 years old, and I have been hoping to see improvements with his maturing. But I still have a dog on a prong collar who will bolt at all the deer we run into...guaranteed ...every day.
Who will not respond to a choke collar. And who , if i have on a flat leash, will pull me off my feet. A dog who has never been off of a leash in- the almost two years I have had him.
I refuse to use a choke chain on him. And I am not much happier using a prong.
And I am getting pretty disheartened that even the prong is not seeming to work at times. This may be because I will not do a yank and crank. But as the years with my dogs have passed, so has my willingness to be that extreme. Education is coming with age.
So I am at the point where i am thinking that an electronic collar is going to be more humane, than escalating the use of a prong.
This dog can be amazing at times. He will hold in place when told. Do all basic and more, obedience. But take him out of the fenced yard, and that nose....just takes over. And I refuse to be jerking him all over the place.
This is a breed I knew nothing about when we rescued him. And I would do it over again in a heart beat.
I have tried to figure out if I should be able to over come his genetics....and questioned whether moving onto an e-collar is the right thing to do. May I say, if you have never owned a dog bred to be "a nose on 4 legs' you may not understand what i am dealing with here.
But thanks to you all, the pro's and the anti's as I appreciate the views and thoughts as I try to find more info.

[noseysadie]

Houndhugger,
How has your research been going on ecollars. I have a coonhound that we use for trail riding and hope to use for air-scenting and tracking. The ecollar helps us to control her on the trails when it is critical that she hear us instead of her nose. Would love to talk to a fellow coonhound parent.

[Elana55]

Let me start ut by saying that I do not believe in using aversives to train a dog. That is today and that is my approach.

However, I did use an E collar when I also used classical training of reward and punishment. This example will show why aversives don't work and why I ended up using an E collar ONE TIME and, while I still have the collar, it is now 20 years later and I have never used it again.

I had a cattle dog. she had a real desire to eat cow Afterbirth. One time she ate afterbirth but in so doing she also damaged a cow's vulva. Cow could never be bred again and I lost the cow at the end of her lactation. She was a very good cow and this was a large loss.

The dog had been trained using aversives. She knew, when I was around, that if she went near a cow with afterbirth, there would be heck to pay. When a cow calved the dog would slink away knowing not to do this behavior as long as I was present.

However, if I left the barn for any reason (to get a thermometer or to wash milking machines) and a cow had calved and there was afterbirth (placenta) present, that dog was in it like LIGHTNING. My using aversives did not extinguish the behavior. It extinguished it in my presence.

So, here I have a very smart dog who I cannot punish...b because I can no longer catch her in the act, so I got an E collar.

The next time a cow calved I put that cow down at the far end of the barn. The dog was wearing the Ecollar. I watched through a crack in the door (collar was set at medium). Well, after about 3 minutes, the dog got up and went right to that cow with the after birth. As she reached for the after birth I hit the control.

Anyone who says the collar does not hurt did not use it on my dog (dogs are notoriously sensitive to electricity). I think that dog jumped 5 feet off the ground HOWLING.. she kept the howling up running all the way up to the milkhouse where I was hiding (I only pressed the button for a second and only once). I came out of the milkhouse and comforted her (the poor dog routine).

At first I was not sure if this cured her, I kept the e collar on her for the next few calvings but the dog never touched another cow. If a cow started to calve she would leave the area.

I was lucky. The dog made the associaton between the aversion and her action. My timing was perfect.

If I had not been perfect on my timing. If the dog had not made the association. If the Ecollar had not affected her.. None of this would ahve worked.

Today I would not use aversives in the first place to train the dog. Fact is, I hope to never use them again. Other methods work better.

I still have the Ecollar in storage. The box collects dust and reminds me of how not to train a dog.