[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Ginny01OT

We must not forget that dogs were bred for different purposes: herding, hunting, etc. and different dogs have way different pain levels which is one of the reasons an experienced trainer is needed if one decides to use the ecollar training method

To introduce someone to properly setting the Ecollar nick level, and show you how to determine if it is set correctly for your dog, takes less than an hour with a good instructor. A bit of common sense, and paying attention , is all that is required to learn this.

Not to repeat myself, but I have to, the E collar doesn't cause pain to the dog. Eveyone that gets a demo of the e Collar, by trying on themselves, is surprised to that what they feel is a tingle. They don't fall on the ground writhing in pain, smoke doesn't come off their arm where the collar is resting, they don't pass out, they don't scream for help, it doesn't hurt them. I have had 8 year old kids try it and they laugh.... What you are setting is the level that gets your dog's attention. It would be the same as tapping someone on the shoulder at a party. They may or may not notice, because they are engaged in a conversation with someone else ( distraction) , so you tap again , still they don't notice, then you tap slightly more forcefull. That is the way the collar works. You don't tap them once, and if they don't notice, then proceed to hit them over the head with a baseball bat ( cause pain). This is not a hard concept to get, if you just think about it for a minute.

[DBZ]

I understand what you're saying SFury, as I have an ACD (Australian Cattle Dog) also known by most as a stubborn breed. ACD's are tough and extremely prey driven and focused. It takes a lot of patience to get them to focus on what you want.

My dog is 10 1/2 y/o and went through his first obedience class at 8 mos. using choke chain corrections and a "Good Citizen" class at 2 y/o.

The dog was so indifferent to choke chain corrections (esp. around other dogs) that I tried a pinch collar (prong). It worked much better than a choke chain for me with him. Now my dog is collar wise and understands when the prong is on it's time to get serious, thus no corrections are necessary.

When I take my dog (ZIP) out in public I still apply his prong collar but it's just there so he knows to behave. No corrections are needed. But with a flat buckle collar only, he would pull or possibly lunge if another dog came too close.

I've started "clicker" lure reward training recently and my old dog has responded in a great way! I've learned a better way to train and get what we (me & Zip) both want! I wish I'd trained this way from the start. I would've socialized Zip better as a puppy (I was afraid to expose him to disease). I didn't know about "puppy class" or "Doggy Daycare". I'll take full advantage of these next time I raise a puppy. I'll also use positive training methods from the get-go. I believe I'll have a happier dog with fewer behavior issues but only time will tell.

I don't tell anyone how to train their dog but I like sharing ideas. The more info people have, the better they can decide what is right for them and their pet. That's one of the things I enjoy about this site. Many ideas are shared here and often contradict. It can be confusing but with a little investigation I believe most will come to the conclusion they need to improve their situation.

Thank you all and to all the best!

DBZ

[Alpha]

Just because a dog isn't responding to "purely positive" methods doesnt' mean the only other alternative is to slap an e-collar on them.

Another way people are being mislead. There aren't two different kinds of training: positive or e-collar, there are MANY.

DBZ- I'm in the same boat as you! When we first started training, we did a number of leash pops in training, it was only up until around 6-9 months ago that I really started using shaping/positive methods much more, and I am more that pleased with the results. Hence why now, my FIRST method is shaping/positive, I've seen the best results with it.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

Not to repeat myself, but I have to, the E collar doesn't cause pain to the dog. Eveyone that gets a demo of the e Collar, by trying on themselves, is surprised to that what they feel is a tingle. They don't fall on the ground writhing in pain, smoke doesn't come off their arm where the collar is resting, they don't pass out, they don't scream for help, it doesn't hurt them.

This is not a hard concept to get, if you just think about it for a minute.

I think it's a good idea to understand the range of an e-collar before any dog handler decides to use one. However, it must be understood that the aversion, regarless of how it feels on our arm, can only be determined by how the dog perceives it. There is no data suggesting that e-collars don't cause pain, it's never been tested and probably never will. Peta would jump all over that in a heart beat, if it ever were tested.

But this gets back to my point on if your dog likes you in the end. The best test of any training method is to end the training session and see where your dog ends up. If it runs away, it's probably not a good training method, or at the very least not a good training session. If he returns to you looking for more, I'd say you're on the right track.

If anything, we need to know more about the e-collar. Since in-the-lab testing will never happen with the e-collar, trainers need to compile data during their training sessions. If the slope between training and response doesn't proceed downward across an interval of time, this training method is not effective. It's as simple as that, and we don't have this kind of info. I wish e-collar trainers would collect this kind of data. Otherwise people will always view it as either the best training method ever, or purely evil. When in actuallity is probably something more in between. But who knows?

[Mabel55]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I think it's a good idea to understand the range of an e-collar before any dog handler decides to use one. However, it must be understood that the aversion, regarless of how it feels on our arm, can only be determined by how the dog perceives it. There is no data suggesting that e-collars don't cause pain, it's never been tested and probably never will. Peta would jump all over that in a heart beat, if it ever were tested.

Electricity is a funny thing. It would be nice if we could just look at a number like voltage and determine the exact nature of the effect the e-collar would have on a dog. In reality there are several variables that factor into how an animal will experience the stimulation: intensity, frequency of application, duration, and location of the collar.

In response to above comment that there is no data on the pain caused by e-collars, I would like to suggest a solution: feel the collar for yourself.

Our dog, Mabel, has a remote trainer and we have been thrilled with the results. Not only is she obedient, but she is just as happy and healthy as ever. She does not live in fear of her collar, just the opposite; she gets excited when we get out the collar because she knows she is going to the park.

With that said, when we first bought the collar both my boyfriend and I felt the stimulation for ourselves. We would have never done something to our Mabel that we wouldn't do to ourselves. E-collars, like all training, needs to be thoroughly researched and understood before beginning. High end e-collars come with great training literature and usually a video but if you would like to do some research on your own check out wikipedia's entry shock collar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_Collar or http://trainmypet.net

[borzoimom]

Speaking of feeling it for yourself- take a look at this video. Granted this is a anti bark E collar- but you can see obvious comfort on level one ( same device ). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ffIyxiLxc&eurl=
and to toss in a anti bark E collar for a second into this- keep this in mind- if the dog is startled and yelps out of fright- it takes the collar up a knotch, and has even had other dogs in the house set off the collar of the ones that wasnt even barking.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Mabel55

In response to above comment that there is no data on the pain caused by e-collars, I would like to suggest a solution: feel the collar for yourself.

I understand the logic, but again, this doesn't provide information that I can say YES! this is what my dog needs. YES! this is appropriate for my dog. My dog would rather I kick her and show no response to pain, but raise my voice and she's emotinally crushed. Again, the aversion is best judged by the dog, not the owner. To misjudge the aversion is to accept abuse, and I can't do that, nor would I recommend it to others. If your dog is happy, that's great, I'm glad it's a useful tool for you. I personally am not a fan of gizmos, so I prefer other methods that keep me relatively hands free during training. I can barely walk and chew gum at the same time, I'd have no luck with a remote in my hand too. Plus, many dog handlers are children, and how many 5 year olds do you know that could be timely and responsible with a remote? IMO, if your training a companion dog, e-collars are not where you start. They have some utility in field work, but even there I have some reservations on need.

There's only one way to recommend e-collars and that's with the assistance of a certified trainer. There are no "yes, but" points that can be made to veer from this point IMO, no matter how well a video tape is made.

[borzoimom]

I would never use one for my own dogs ever.. Never had reason too and always another way to train. Sch/police work training I have in the past. To me- I am sorry- no way .. Not with my dogs. I want a working member of my pack built on trust, love and respect.. NOT FEAR- concern, etc.. noooooo thank you!
IMO people that use E collars didnt start training with a process in mind and just want a quick fix.. No thank you..And even experienced so called trainers its like a quick fix and made out of frustration. NEVER should training take place in frustration.. EVER..

[Puppy_love_122]

I think that they are curel, unless being used by a professional trainer or by some one who know how to use it properly and make the dog understand it.

[Alpha]

IMO people that use E collars didnt start training with a process in mind and just want a quick fix..

I had gone through a very long process before I resorted to the e-collar. A YEAR LONG process that had no results whatsoever, in fact we saw the behaviour worsen.

It's not to say that the e-collar "worked", IMO it worked better than what we were doing, but I've since found a method that works even better than the e-collar, but it's also not to say that I was just looking for a quick fix, or that I had no logic or reasoning behind my decision.

I think it's rash to say that *everyone* that uses an e-collar is looking for a quick fix, or hasn't put any thought behind it, because that's just not true.

I agree there are many that see it as a quick fix, a magical tool to get your dog to behave, but not *everyone* including myself and I know a few others on this board.

I also agree with Curb when it comes to how the DOG feels this stimulation. We will never know what it feels like to a dog, our bodies just don't work exactly the same. Also it was mentioned, the variables including, length of stim, frequency, but what I find most important is WHERE THE COLLAR IS.

You may think you've found the proper setting for your dog, but the next time you put that collar on, if it's not in the same place, or you put it on tighter, the dog could feel that "light stim" get stronger by 1000. I've felt this on myself. In certain places, if pushed down even minutely, the shock is intensified greatly.

Therefore, IMO, it's not a consistent enough correction. For things that don't require a lot of stims, like perhaps proofing the recall. You should've already laid down the foundation and you may not even have to stim. But using the collar as a primary method alongside with the inconsistent stim is what IMO doesn't make much sense anymore after thinking about it.

Ex) You've asked your dog to finish. They sit crooked, you zap. This time it's only a light stim because the collar was in a certain position, the next time it's slipped a bit, and the dog REALLY feels that stim.

As most know on this board, one of the most important things in dog training is being consistent. And after much thought, I don't believe that the e-collar is a consistent aversion.

[john tran]

i've taken the time over the past few days to read every single post in this thread...

i've had my dog for 8 months now. most people tell me how amazing of a job i've done with him. example: i can have him sit offleash while dogs in the neighborhood walk by him (as long as they don't get within 1feet he won't move. personally (maybe i just have high standards) i don't feel that is enough. working on getting him to sit while being more than 20 feet away is extremely difficult, he still has problems leaving a pack, especially when it gets a bit too crazy (dogs all barking etc)....

i have the 2nd best trained dog in the neighborhood, totaling of 25+ dogs. the most well trained dog is this dog named katahdin. she's 7-8ish, but was very very poorly socialized before the owner adopted her. since then she has lashed out at other dogs. he's taken her to professional training and with the help of the electronic collar she's one of the most amazingly well trained dogs i have ever seen in my life (second to only the german shepard vid i've seen on youtube).

i'm seriously considering an e-collar (i take my dog backpacking ALL the time and he's often 100 yards away). i walk him offleash 95% of the time, the 5% is for our 5 mile runs in the morning and when we have to cross streets. other than that he has free reign of anything and everything. there are many other reasons that warrant an e-collar. ie: the constant offleash living in the city of boston, lots of cars, lots of little critters, he once took off after a rabbit at a park, nearly got 50 yards away before my voice stopped him (he's a lab/collie/pitbull/shepard 45lb dog, fast as hell, i've clocked him at 25mph and he definately could have gone faster).

but to my point. many of you are much much more experienced than i am, i've been able to get a lot out of you guys.

but i would like to offer some constructive criticism, please DO NOT take any of this offensively. first off, i want to state that i love my dog, but by no means am i always nice to my dog. there are times when a dog needs to be punished. i personally feel that negative reinforcement is needed at times, as well as a little physical punishment. ie: i've tried everything with my dog when it comes with walking off leash. and i mean everything.

what worked best was a slap on his rear with the leash (all nylon) everytime his back legs passed me. it took THREE WHOLE SLAPS (within 3 days) and he has not passed me in 4 months. i personally feel that is more effective and "humane" for the dog than constantly nagging.

i recall when i was a kid, i would much rather get slapped or spanked by my dad than constantly nagged by my mother, in fact, i'de rather get beaten by my dad lol.

back to my point, i think that you guys need to lighten up a tiny bit when it comes to others putting their hands on their dogs. i don't believe in BEATING a dog, but i believe in phyiscal correction when appropriate. if your 6 year old son punched a neighbors kid are you going to talk to him everytime? or are you eventually going to give him that spanking. kid dependent of course, but the spanking he'll remember much more than the chat. especially if it's done sooner than later.

don't get me wrong, i'm not telling people to HIT their dogs, i'm just saying that it CAN be warranted and in the appropriate situations i don't think it's that big of a deal.

my 5 dollars :-D

john

[Alpha]

I've thwapped my dogs with the leash here or there, but not as a correction to be honest. Most of the time, it's a whack to get their attention and initiate rough play. Not whipping really, I guess it's just something you have to see. lol

I'm very physical with my dogs, I'll be honest. We play awful rough. I saw a post here about putting your knee up to stop a dog from jumping and saw some replies from people that would call the cops on me if they saw me playing with my dogs! LOL

It's all in fun, and it's clear my dogs enjoy it. They don't yelp, or act hurt, they just come at me harder!

I understand your analogy of children fighting, but it's just not interchangable with dogs. A six year old child has more human logic than a dog will have in a lifetime, so it just doesn't cut it for me.

I won't lie, I've physically corrected my dogs, and once again I won't lie, it didn't do anything but harm. No positive outcomes for me, or my dogs, short-term, possibly, they ceased a behaviour, but not long-term.

My dogs get a smack on the rump here or there, but it's never really in anger, and it's never really a correction. More or less getting their attention. Like, Roxy's walking by and I give her a smack so she turns and I can pat her. Kind of like punching a friend softly in the arm jokingly. I believe studies have been done that prove spanking a dog can cause hip problems later on in life.

I agree, I don't like nagging either My mom does it ALL the time!

With positive reinforcement specifically, (we've been doing a lot more of it the past few months, my new agility trainer's MAKING me! kidding... well he is, but I'm enjoying it! ROFL) I find that I'm not nagging. I'm rather shaping the whole situation to be one that I can reward.

If I can't find something that's happening naturally to reward, I'll mould the situation into one that I CAN reward.

I've found Roxy to have lightened up a bit, and to have more interest in certain activities that she didn't used to. Heeling for example, agility in general as well.

And Hades, is moving along in beginner agility like lightening! He rarely shuts down and I find he's learning faster.

There are still old habits of mine that just won't seem to die, like leash popping or verbally correcting for a foot out of place, but it's something I need to work on! LOL

[wolfy]

I'll be honest here, I am totally and utterly against shock collars, for a number of reasons.....

1) They are painful. I do not agree with any of the claims that an electric shock does not hurt and is just for getting the dog's attention. If this were truly the case, then tapping him, calling him, throwing something on the floor next to him etc. would have exactly the same effect. Shock collars work on the principle of aversives. The single and only purpose is to cause pain. I personally feel this is inhumane.

2) They are unnecessary. They are more training methods and pieces of equipment than you can shake a stick at, there is no need to resort to violence. Thousands of dogs, of all breeds, from all backgrounds have been successfully trained in a variety of disciplines without shocks. In the UK shock collars are not used for training police or military dogs, guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, canine partners for the disabled etc. All these dogs reach exceptionally high standards of training and obediance without being shocked, so no one can claim it is necessary.

If it is not necessary to use a shock collar, and shock collars hurt, then it is clear that using one causes "unnecessary suffering". To me, using a shock collar is no different to kicking your dog because you had a bad day.

3) They can cause more problems than they solve. This happens in two ways.

One - they can actually make the problem that you are trying to solve much worse. For example, a dog suffering from separation anxiety. The dog barks when left alone because it is anxious, distressed, afraid etc. So you put a bark collar on. Now the dog begins to associate being left alone with being shocked, so it's fear and anxiety levels go up, which causes its separation anxiety to become worse.

Two - they can further problems, particularly aggression. When faced with a fearful situation dogs revert back to the old "fight or flight" response and in this case flight is not an option. The dog can only associate the painful shock with whatever it was focused on at the time. You have no way of ensuring the dog makes the correct association. For example, a friendly dog is in the yard wearing a shock collar linked to an invisible fence. A child walks by and calls the dog to pet him, so the dog approaches the child. Dog gets shocked, associates the pain and fear with the child, and becomes aggressive towards children.

These are serious risks that you take every single time your dog is shocked.

4) They have a high potential for misuse or malfunction. Any moron can go out and buy a shock collar. Some will use the collar deliberately cruelly. Others just won't have a clear understanding of how to use on properly. In both cases it is the dog who suffers. These collars can also go horribly wrong, resulting in the dog receiving constant shocks and causing burns to the neck. Most people know that mixing electricity with water is a bad idea, but will put a shock collar on their dog and let it out in the rain without considering the possible consequences. In my opinion it is just not worth the risk.

5) Aversive methods can impede training. Pain, fear and intense or chronic stress cause changes in the body - namely hormonal changes. From a purely physiological sense these changes inhibit concentration, learning ability and memory formation. By using aversives such as shocks you could actually be slowing down your dogs training.

So there we have it. In my opinion shock collars are at best useless and annoying, at worst can cause serious physical and psychological damage and a reduction in welfare. I wouldn't do it to a child, I certainly wouldn't do it to a dog.

[john tran]

lets make this short and sweet...

do you not agree that some people should be put on shock collars? i sure do. if humans (being the most intellectual species on the planet) can have issues with doing what is right and wrong then wouldn't it be that much easier for a dog to not know the difference between right and wrong.

you can say that if a dog bites the child and he gets shocked he'll associate the child with being shocked and next time he'll want to bite the child.

but i can just as easily turn it around and say that the dog understands that he was only shocked because he bit the child, not because he walked near a child. the point is, you don't just shock the dog. you shock him because he was wrong, but you positively enforce the child by having the child give the dog treats. that's how you properly use an e-collar. shocking is not the end all solution, it's PART of the solution.

just like putting a bad kid in jail for stealing is not the solution, it's just part of it.. sometimes.

john

[Curbside Prophet]

But biting the child is not "wrong" to the dog, nor would a shock instruct the dog what to do. This is the problem with aversives, they are inefficient, and must be severe to be effective. I'm not suggesting this is true for you and your dog, but for the average dog owner this is very true. And I don't know about you, but I don't want average dog owners figuring out what a severe punishment is. I prefer to advocate a friendlier approach by asking the question, if this is wrong, what is right? I want my punishments to answer that question. Perhaps laying down when a child enters a room is what's right, and punishing the dog with instuction is the more complete solution without the shock.

[Alpha]

I don't think there are many people that would use an e-collar for aggression issues, but for those that do it properly, the "shock" is never given at the time of the growl/snarl/bite.

A woman I speak with used the e-collar successfully in a few short sessions with a very DA dog. Similar to the technique I used with Roxy (which wasn't 100% successful, as this case was). As soon as the dog displayed signs of reacting aggressively, the owner called the dog to come. Of course he didn't and he got stimmed. It's loosely based on koehler's methods, some of which are outdated, but the general theory still applies. If the solid foundation for a behaviour has been laid (this is where most people get lost in koehler's theories and immediately revert to he's forceful, mean, cruel etc. when really he clearly makes a point to take all of the neccessary steps to lay down the foundation for the dog, proof the command, then when the command is known, it's been displayed hundreds of times and the dog does not comply, he get's corrected. If you can pick through the outdated methods and find the good stuff koehler's methods are not cruel or harsh. I prefer to take the beginning steps he lays out which involve NO correction, then when the time comes to correct, I correct to the level I feel neccessary, usually verbal with my guys.) ANYWAYS, that got long, the dog gets corrected for disobeying the recall, it's clear to the dog.

Now whenever the dog feels those "reactive" feelings, he immediately returns to the owner's side.

I agree John, that many feel they push the button and that's it, behaviours over and done with. When as you said, it's only half of it. If you correct, you need to praise. (I feel this way with ANY aversive though)

I disagree that the dog "understands" why they are getting shocked in some situations. Often enough they have no idea why they're getting shocked, that is until you give them an alternate behaviour. And even then, they don't know the original behaviour that caused them to get shocked, they just know what to do to AVOID being shocked. Big difference. Understanding the REASON they got shocked many a time has nothing to do with it. It's avoidance, which is exactly why we use aversives in dog training. An aversive is anything the dog is willing to work for, to avoid.

As for e-collars and rain, if you knew anything about them, you would know that most now a days are waterproof seeing as the majority of people that use them do field work.

I agree Curb. There aren't too many average joe's out there that need a tool like an e-collar. But there are exceptions. A few months ago I had to use the e-collar on Hades. He was bull dozing Roxy, one time, making her lame for a few days. Also, Roxy had corrected Hades, leaving a large gash, now scar on his head above his eye (that was the worst time, there were many others).

Clearly Roxy's correction wasn't working, and Hades still continued to hurt her. I had tried rewarding calm play, but for those of you who own terriers, you know that when a dog is in "terrier mode" they're unreachable. He got stimmed three times just as he was about to doze Roxy, I called him, then rewarded him. That's it. He hasn't done it since. He doesn't wear the collar when we're out on walks, I'm not constantly using it. He wore it on ONE walk, got stimmed three times, and the behaviour is gone.

For circumstances like those, I see/saw no other option other than keeping Hades on leash, and that's just not feasible in our life.

I think there are always exceptions with dogs, but MOST of the time, normal pet owners will never need a tool like an e-collar. For those that do, the option is there, and I don't believe the e-collar is absolutely cruel or inhumane. I just think it's like any other aversive, and it should be used sparingly.

[wolfy]

John Tran - I see what you're saying but there are too many variables.

Consider the three types of shock collar. The bark collar and the invisible fence collar wil both activate and shock the dog when triggered, in some cases when the owner is not around. In these cases the dog will associate the shock with whatever it was focused on at the time - hence many problems arise.

Remote collars on the other hand give you that level of control - you choose when to shock the dog in order for him to form the correct association. The problem here is that you can't read the dogs mind and have no way of knowing what association he will make.

Say you are walking the dog off leash and he runs over to see someone (in a friendly way). You call him, he ignores you, you shock him. You want the dog to associate not coming when called with getting shocked. He could make this association or he could make many others. He may associate the shock with the person he was focused on. He may associate it simply with being away from you (which could make him afraid to leave your side). He could make a more general association, for example with the place you were and become fearful of the place.

You need to consider that one of the most common causes of aggressive behaviour is fear. Using severe, painful aversives will ALWAYS be a risk for this reason.

Alpha - I appreciate that you used the collar for a good reason, and that you used it minimally, but I still can not accept that it was necessary. Did you try distraction? Training discs? Even a spray collar? No - straight in with the pain....
You also keep referring to it as getting "stimmed". It isn't a stimulation -it is an electric shock. I just wish people would admit that.

As for Koehler - trying to root through the abuse just isn't worth it in my opinion. He knew very little about dog behaviour and learning, recommended brutal abuse for simple problems, after-the-fact punishment etc. and never considered the possiblity that most, if not all dogs, do not need to be forced and beaten into submission. I'm sorry, I will save my respect for the trainers that actually have a clue what they are talking about.

I forgot to add.... a major part of my problem with shock collars is that they treat the symptom and not the cause of a problem.

Yes, you could use shocks to "cure" aggressive behaviour, or any other problem, but you do not stop the dog having those feelings, only stop him acting upon.
If your dog is reactive, and DA or HA then you need to analyse the situation, find out WHY (fear, lack of socialisation etc) and overcome this. A dog shocked into not biting may still be fearful of dogs, as a dog shocked for barking when alone will still suffer from separation anxiety.

Only by treating the cause do you fully "cure" the problem. By treating the symptom you only hide or redirect the symptom, and could end up with a time-bomb dog.

[Ginny01OT]

Many people use e collars incorrectly and granted there are many ecollars out there available that are just not good; however, there are some e-collars that are excellent training tools. When people refer to the dog gettng a "shock" from the collar I immediately envision this zap, the dog jumping and crying--that is NOT what the collar is designed to do and should never be used that way. Many of the higher end remote collars have "pager" modes so there is no "shock" at all, it is a vibration. I have an ecollar that I had a trainer come in and teach me how to use properly. It was not being used from aggression issues or any kind of anxiety issues. Not all dogs are candidates for an ecollar, specifically aggressive, fearful dogs that suffer from anxiety. When used properly it is an excellent training tool and the "shock" per se is nothing more than a finger snap--of course when used properly. The different levels of stimulation are because different breeds of dogs have different levels of pain tolerance and what is annoying to one dog may not be felt by another. It has worked wonders with our off-leash training. Additionally I have received e-stim on my back and it doesn't hurt (again when used properly) and it is facilitating a healing process, making me better. The ecollar is the same concept when used properly, not abused, and a person is educated about using it (heck, I work in healthcare and would not have even thought about using e-stim on myself or anyone else until I took a course in how to use it correctly--which I did) I do understand what you are saying tho, many people buy these things, use them without any training, use them for the wrong reasons and downright abuse them

[Alpha]

wolfy, as for my use with Hades, it's clear you've never worked with terriers, or the work you did was limited.

Terriers are known for having a one track mind and being impossible to distract when they in that mode. It's comparable from trying to call a bloodhound off a heavy scent. If you read my post, you would see that I did try a completely NON aversive method, and it was utterly hopeless. So, NO, I did not go straight to "pain" as you so put it. Perhaps you should read posts thoroughly before going straight to the accusoratory tone and making yourself look like an a$$.

May I ask how I'm supposed to spray my dogs, (possibly blinding them or impairing their eyesight) from more than 50 feet away? Must be a pretty good sprayer

Also wolfy, we're clearly on different levels when it comes to this issue. Roxy is important to me, so is Hades. I needed, YES, a quick solution to a growing, DANGEROUS problem. And the e-collar provided that solution, QUICKLY and painlessly. Yes I used the word "stimmed", which is short form for stimulation. Which is exactly what the e-collar does, it stimulates the muscles around the neck areak, wherever the collar is causing an unpleasant, uncomfortable feeling. Much like what you suggest, squirting a dog in the face with most likely an acidic substance. I'm no dog, but I would much prefer a jolt from a 9volt batter than pepper spray.

And as for koehler, that's your opinion. Mine is, his foundation steps for UD excercises tend to be the most successful, as with other novice and open excercises. If your too lazy to pick through and understand what he's saying, long before he gets to the ear pinch, than we're not on the same level.

I've never denied that the e-collar is a shock... so once again, perhaps you should go back and read posts ALL THE WAY THROUGH, until typing out a response that makes you look foolish. In fact ten pages ago *I* was the one, asking for people to admit that the e-collar is an unpleasant avserive that the dog works to avoid. Boy, you look silly.

ETA- That I just realized your aversive method, the sprayer has the same inconsistencies as the e-collar when it comes to aggressive behaviours. If I sprayed Hades in the face causing an unpleasant burning sensation in his eye, he would still associate the awful feeling with Roxy would he not?

[Ginny01OT]

First off, if I ever, which I would NEVER, sprayed something in my dog's eyes--he would associate the pain with me spraying something in his face. Remote collars are not put in the dog's face, pressed and the dog gets electrocuted--they associate the unpleasant feeling with the undesirable behavior and therefore avoid the behavior to avoid the stimulation. Seems to me spraying something in a dogs face is just wrong and would only make a fearful, anxious dog more so--plus I don't see how that can get any positive results--and that REALLY hurts (I was cutting a lemon once and the juice squirt in my eye boy did that burn)