[Renoman]

I know Bob.

[Shalva]

hey not me
I agreed with ya.... but then again I am a field person.... I work my dogs so I have seen them used properly.....

[Renoman]

I know Shalva. If one person comes away from this discussion with a different opinion about the collar or at least has the curiosity to seek out someone to give them a little training and first hand knowledge on the correct and most effective use of e-collars and it will help them with their training, then we've spent our time well.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Renoman

I know Shalva. If one person comes away from this discussion with a different opinion about the collar or at least has the curiosity to seek out someone to give them a little training and first hand knowledge on the correct and most effective use of e-collars and it will help them with their training, then we've spent our time well.

I spent this morning with an Instructor who uses E Collars in her school on an ongoing basis. I mentioned to her, some of the negative comments that are posted on this thread about E Collars, and she said that "it is such a shame that people still have this prehistoric view of what E Collar training is all about today". She had about 4 of her dogs running around, all with E collars on, from a 6 pound chihuahua to a GSD and Golden Retriever. All were happy dog, trained perfectly, and you could see that these dogs just loved the trainer. She told me the same story that the other two trainers that base their training on E Collars had previously told me , that it is the fastest and most lasting way to train a dog today. Train a dog to come, with all kinds of distractions omcluding other dogs running around your dog , in a one hour session. Try to do that with any other method.

She described E Collar training as being able to tap on your dog's shoulder with your finger to get it's attention. It means no more to the dog than that, if you have been shown how to properly use the collar. Would I recommend someone just buying a collar and going for it, not on your life. Get a quality collar, a good instructor with E collar experience, and you will be amazed at how quickly you can get results with you dog.

I guess people had the same problem when autos came out, and they didn't want to give up the horse an buggy.

[Renoman]

Sometimes people don't like something simply because they know nothing about it and they refuse to learn.

Some people who posted here dislike the collars because of bad experiences. Understandable. Others dislike the collar because they don't understand it (much like the first automobile) and learning about it would mean at least acknowledging that some of the reasons for using a collar are very valid. Perish the thought

I agree Bob. It's really too bad.

[Alpha]

You know, I could care less what people do with their own dogs. Regardless of whether I agree or not, deep down, nothing I say will make anyone change their minds.

What really is starting to bother me Captbob, is you obviously have NO CLUE about dog training or general, or many of the statements you've made you would retract.

You don't know my dogs. You don't know a number of people on this boards dogs, who I KNOW have trained using methods that are much different than your chosen methods.

So what on God's green earth, gives you the right to make statements like this:

Try to do that with any other method.

I mean, if you trully want to be educated about dog training, you should know by now that there are a number of methods out there that WORK. Not just ONE, "the e-collar". There are a handful, balanced training, purely positive, correction training.... All within each category of series of mild to severe...

I urge you to teach a dog go-outs with an e-collar. If you even know what that is. I spent less than 6 months laying down the groundwork for directed jumping and have quickly surpassed those at our school who have been working in total years longer than I with Roxy, yes with the e-collar.

Go out and DO SOMETHING with your dog, go out and SEE other people working with their dogs, not just e-collar people.

You try to come off as knowledgeable and educated but when you make comments like that you come off as ignorant and oblivious to the fact that there are MANY training methods out there in this world that work individually BETTER for certain dogs.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

You know, I could care less what people do with their own dogs. Regardless of whether I agree or not, deep down, nothing I say will make anyone change their minds.

What really is starting to bother me Captbob, is you obviously have NO CLUE about dog training or general, or many of the statements you've made you would retract.

You don't know my dogs. You don't know a number of people on this boards dogs, who I KNOW have trained using methods that are much different than your chosen methods.

So what on God's green earth, gives you the right to make statements like this:



I mean, if you trully want to be educated about dog training, you should know by now that there are a number of methods out there that WORK. Not just ONE, "the e-collar". There are a handful, balanced training, purely positive, correction training.... All within each category of series of mild to severe...

I urge you to teach a dog go-outs with an e-collar. If you even know what that is. I spent less than 6 months laying down the groundwork for directed jumping and have quickly surpassed those at our school who have been working in total years longer than I with Roxy, yes with the e-collar.

Go out and DO SOMETHING with your dog, go out and SEE other people working with their dogs, not just e-collar people.

You try to come off as knowledgeable and educated but when you make comments like that you come off as ignorant and oblivious to the fact that there are MANY training methods out there in this world that work individually BETTER for certain dogs.

My statement about training a dog to do a reliable come, off leash, in under and hour with distractions, you say that you can do without an E Collar? Then you must be one great trainer and the exception rather than the rule. Do you do this professionally?

[Curbside Prophet]

Let me preface this by saying I don't use an e-collar on my dog. I don't need to use an e-collar on my dog, I don't want to use an e-collar on my dog, and I don't recommend to people to use an e-collar on a dog. Now befor you get your panties in a bunch, let me explain why beyond the fact that I know what I'm good at.

90% (I think this is a fair estimate) of dog trainers are dog handlers who are novices. This would include men, women, AND children. If your training require too much learning, you cut out most dog trainers. Besides, who would want an e-collar controller in the hands of a child.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgllp6DJGNE

So what does this mean? It means dog training in general needs to be simple, it needs to be efficient, it needs to be practical. By saying this I AM NOT saying e-collars don't have a place in dog training...they do, but IMO it's not practical to the first time dog rescuer who doesn't even know if their dog likes them. I think I've only read from Renoman who specifically stated it requires expertice training. I'm sure e-collars are a wonderful tool to those that use them effectively, but please don't excuse my disinterest in them as a lack of understanding, or claim that I must be an expert, or I simple just don't know how to use them. I'm merely applying logic to what I know about dog trainers/handlers in general.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Let me preface this by saying I don't use an e-collar on my dog. I don't need to use an e-collar on my dog, I don't want to use an e-collar on my dog, and I don't recommend to people to use an e-collar on a dog. Now befor you get your panties in a bunch, let me explain why beyond the fact that I know what I'm good at.

90% (I think this is a fair estimate) of dog trainers are dog handlers who are novices. This would include men, women, AND children. If your training require too much learning, you cut out most dog trainers. Besides, who would want an e-collar controller in the hands of a child.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgllp6DJGNE

So what does this mean? It means dog training in general needs to be simple, it needs to be efficient, it needs to be practical. By saying this I AM NOT saying e-collars don't have a place in dog training...they do, but IMO it's not practical to the first time dog rescuer who doesn't even know if their dog likes them. I think I've only read from Renoman who specifically stated it requires expertice training. I'm sure e-collars are a wonderful tool to those that use them effectively, but please don't excuse my disinterest in them as a lack of understanding, or claim that I must be an expert, or I simple just don't know how to use them. I'm merely applying logic to what I know about dog trainers/handlers in general.

I totally agree, and you will notice in my post above, that I stated very clearly that if you want to go the E-Collar route, that you need to first get a trainer that has alot of experience in that method of training. Just as an example, I visited a well known trainer yesterday, and she has 5 dogs that she uses in demos and events featuring trained dogs. She used E collars to train every one of those dogs, and the dogs are incredible. Every one of them were rescues that she adopted and then trained. Would I recommend going to a Petsmart and handing the trainer an E Collar, and say "teach me", no way.

But to say:

1. "This is a cruel way to train a dog if done properly". that is simply not true
2. that "it can't be used for basic training such as come, heel, sit, stay", that isn't true either
3. that you can walk into a Petsmart or Petco, buy one, and take it home and start training your dog with it, also isn't true.

I would recommend finding a good trainer in your area, that uses the E Collar method, and there are quite a few. Discuss with them , what you want to accomplish, and ask their opinion about what would be the best way to go about. I do think, that more and more trainers are becoming E Collar experienced, and when they start using this method, that they find that they get better and quicker results, than the leash collar method. After a couple of weeks, the dog is totally trained, and the E Collar goes in the closet, except if are using it for distance recall at the beach or out in the field, where the dog may not be able to hear you.

[Alpha]

Actually Captbob, my dogs have been offleash since I've had them, Roxy at 6 weeks and Hades at 5 and they have NEVER run away, up to other dogs or people. EVER.

IMO, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with dog training, but rather in my household, pack stability and pack leadership. (I won't use the term Alpha as in the dominance theory, but I look at it as leadership skills on my part, resource control on my part etc)

So right there that shows me we're on a totally different level. Dog training to me, is a healthy mix of working together as a team combined with our bond and rule system we already share in the household.

Educating yourself about the e-collar is great, but wouldn't you rather be educated and knowledgable about A NUMBER of different training methods, other than speaking about one and being totally mislead about others?

I much prefer my trainer to those who are purely positive, or those who train ONLY with e-collars. Just as a woman I've been speaking to who owns two of the top 20 obedience Doberman's of last year. In my world of dog training, a knowledgeable reputable trainer is someone who is NOT closeminded to training methods different to their own, and they most DEFINITELY do not make false statements about other methods to try and push their own onto others.

It's funny this:

After a couple of weeks, the dog is totally trained, and the E Collar goes in the closet, except if are using it for distance recall at the beach or out in the field, where the dog may not be able to hear you.

My dogs won't go that far away from me. EVER. They stay within sight and hearing range, not because I verbally nag them, because they WANT TO. THEY WANT TO BE WITH ME. I can't imagine what would ever happen if Hades got lost in the forest, he would die from a heart attack, because I'm his leader, his companion, HIS GIVER. My dogs are on top of me, even from 30-40 feet away if I make a change in direction without so much as a verbal cue. They ALWAYS keep an eye on me, focus that was taught without the use of an e-collar.

All of this was done without the use of the e-collar. But it's not possible right?

ETA- I also think the age of my dogs is relevant. A common misconception about "positive" methods in general, is they take a long time, another misconception about e-collars generally is they are super fast. Both are not true in certain circumstances. Hades is 1.5 years old and Roxy is 2.5. Both quite young, but have achieved offleash priviledges in high distraction areas as well as a number of other excercises.

The two women who have a business with e-collar training have CD's and CDX's on their dogs and have spent over a year trying to get the UD excercises down. While they are difficult excercises, go outs being the hardest, Roxy surpassed them in 6 months using "positive" or "shaping" methods.

To go on the other side here, before my lesson yesterday a woman was doing a show prep private. Her dog is 8 and she's spent years trying to get a CD. Obviously the positive wasn't being executed properly or it just wasn't the right method for the dog.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

Would I recommend going to a Petsmart and handing the trainer an E Collar, and say "teach me", no way.

To be honest Bob I feel the same way about clickers. IMO, anytime you need to get into an operant conditioning explanation game, of how a training method works, it's not the best method for a novice...and this would include clicker training.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

To be honest Bob I feel the same way about clickers. IMO, anytime you need to get into an operant conditioning explanation game, of how a training method works, it's not the best method for a novice...and this would include clicker training.

I have seen dozens of people learn clicker training ( marker) , and almost zero problems with the dogs and the new trainers. Hey if it works, it works...... You have to be pretty dense to not be able to understand clicker training and utilize it with minimal if any problems.

[DBZ]

Hi! Kinda new here but enjoying it!

I'm from the "Old School" learning "New School" and liking the new (to me) methods of "Positive Training". I say this so all will understand I don't claim to be an expert of any sort.

It seems to me that if the desired results are accomplished using all positive experiences without aversives the goal is met and no risk to the dog/owner relationship is at stake.

I imagine the majority of dogs would respond well to positive training and wouldn't need shocks, jerks, noises or the like to be a well trained, socialized companion.

There may be a few dogs with severe behavior problems in need of special training measures as a last resort to escape euthanasia. The average dog owner would be wise to seek the help of a trusted profesional in such case.

I do understand the need to use an E-collar in extreme situations by experienced people and those needing long distance contact ie... hunting and other field work requiring the dog to go beyond ear-shot.

P.S. I'm already a big CP fan

DBZ

[Alpha]

I agree DBZ, but on the other side, as usual, LOL , like with any method damage can be done if not executed properly. Even clicker training like I think Curb was saying.

Some people take it to the extreme and don't research or enlist the help of a reputable trainer and end up with dogs who are now more of a danger, because they know their owner isn't going to correct.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I have seen dozens of people learn clicker training ( marker) , and almost zero problems with the dogs and the new trainers. Hey if it works, it works...... You have to be pretty dense to not be able to understand clicker training and utilize it with minimal if any problems.

O no, don't get me wrong, clicker training is easy, and you would think only the dense would misunderstand it, but I've seen many intelligent children who weren't sure what to do. When it comes to dog training in general, and for the majority of dog handlers, the simpler it is to have success, is optimal. People want to see results right now! That's why I believe lure-reward training is ideal for the novice.

To bring it back to e-collars, when that same novice has learned success in dog training and they want to take their training to a more advanced level...say to train a search and rescue dog, then I can see how an e-collar can be practical for that handler. You may say it benefits you in improving current behaviors, and that's great, and I wouldn't discourage you from pursuing that...I assume your dog loves you, and you love your dog, and there's nothing wrong with wanting more. If you had a problem with the training, I trust you would end it immediately. But most dog owners aren't that interested in dog training, they just want a reliable sit, and that can be done without an e-collar.

[DogsforMe]

Is that the same a shock collars, if so they are banned in Australia.

[Curbside Prophet]

Shock collars were the predecessor to today's e-collar. They are cousins, but not the same...though the e-collar can be used as a shock collar, but not by experienced dog trainers. But I'd bet Australia also bans the e-collar.

[SFury]

DBZ, many dogs do respond well to positive only training. However, there are breeds like golden retrievers and labrador retrievers where some dogs are insanely stubborn. They aren't stupid, and definately not bad dogs. They just push their limits hard as pups, and positive training will be ineffective.

Each dog is different, and any handler/owner has to find the best way to train their dogs so that they follow commands.

[Ginny01OT]

We must not forget that dogs were bred for different purposes: herding, hunting, etc. and different dogs have way different pain levels which is one of the reasons an experienced trainer is needed if one decides to use the ecollar training method

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by SFury

DBZ, many dogs do respond well to positive only training. However, there are breeds like golden retrievers and labrador retrievers where some dogs are insanely stubborn. They aren't stupid, and definately not bad dogs. They just push their limits hard as pups, and positive training will be ineffective.

Each dog is different, and any handler/owner has to find the best way to train their dogs so that they follow commands.

There are many dogs that do not respond to positive only training. That is what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread, but it is a fact that most professional trainers are aware of.