[Captbob]

Originally Posted by SFury

E-collars cause a certain amount of pain. No matter hoe you sugar coat it, they do cause pain. Pain is a variable item. It doesn't have to be excruciating. Discomfort is pain.

Think of it this way, all discomfort is pain, but not all pain is discomfort. If there was no stimuli, then E-collars would never have been useful, and wouldn't be so widespread in use today.

The first thing I was taught is that E-collars cause pain, and should be used sparingly.

You have also missed the fact that I have said multiple times now that the new collars are far better now. Most of them can now tone, or vibrate. This allows for a different stimulus to be used other than pain.

Whoever taught you about e Collars didn't know what they were talking about, but they sure did a good job convincing you that they did..... The new collars are better now, because the stims are at a much lower level and can be adjusted from the transmitter. Most people can feel nothing when I try the setting that I use on my dog, on their arm or leg. By the way, which collar are you using and what model, and how old is it? Some instructors recommend not even using the vibrate function, because it can startle the dog. I never use it on my collar.

[RonE]

I must be stupid. I cannot understand how they work if you feel nothing at all. Do they release an offensive oder? Play Barry Manilow ballads? Offer backseat driving tips?

I've never used one, so I am asking as a curious bystander. But some of the things I'm reading here defy logic.

[Shalva]

and this is inherently the problem with e collars......

people don't know how they work and don't know how to use them......
they are available at any darned pet supply place and until the person has been trained to how to use them they shouldn't be allowed to buy one.

I know lots of field and hunt folks use ecollars to give the dog signals when they are way way out in the field ...... I have seen them used appropriately and I agree with Capt.Bob. I have also seen them used badly.... and I watched a woman at a field training class.... she didn't want her dog to run the bank..... lots of dogs won't take an angle across a stream when they are working they will run the bank and then cross in a straight line... so every time her dog went to cross in the wrong place she zapped and I mean zapped the dog.... well... basically she taught her working retriever to be afraid of water......

most people don't know what the heck they are doing with an e collar.....

I have not personally used one.... I have not needed to although maybe at some point I will.... right now it hasn't been a problem....

but that is my biggest complaint about e collars.
s

[SFury]

I do know that it is a Tri-Tronics collar. I don't know what model e-collar my father has now. The battery for the one he bought 15 or so years ago quit working 4-5 years ago. The battery would no longer hold a charge.

So he did some research and found one that had the tone feature. Those were the relatively new at the time, but he wanted to use a different form of communication with his dog than just a shock.

That was one of the best choices he made. Nitro, his dog, was already trained at that time, and has since been shocked only once. He learned immediately what the tone meant.

I do not know how effective a vibrate collar would be. I have never used one, and don't want one that vibrates. Still, a vibration is not a shock. So that is an improvement. I haven't done any research as to potential problems with a vibrating collar.

An audible tone is a better solution because the coat type of the dog is irrelevant with them. Most working dogs aren't deaf, and a tone just works well. Working dogs are taught to work both on visual and auditory commands, so I would want an audible method to communicate with a dog if I were to get an e-collar. The tone is just an extension of the verbal commands we already are using.

EDIT- The e-collar shock is meant to hurt the dog so you don't need to use it. One hard hit can make the dog understand quickly what is desired. You only use an e-collar for advanced training, and when you know that the dog understands the command. It is the last resort, and the number of times I have used the shock feature on all dogs is less than 10. E-collars can be used for different purposes. I was taught that they are an extreme training tool, and should be avoided if possible.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by SFury

I do know that it is a Tri-Tronics collar. I don't know what model e-collar my father has now. The battery for the one he bought 15 or so years ago quit working 4-5 years ago. The battery would no longer hold a charge.

So he did some research and found one that had the tone feature. Those were the relatively new at the time, but he wanted to use a different form of communication with his dog than just a shock.

That was one of the best choices he made. Nitro, his dog, was already trained at that time, and has since been shocked only once. He learned immediately what the tone meant.

I do not know how effective a vibrate collar would be. I have never used one, and don't want one that vibrates. Still, a vibration is not a shock. So that is an improvement. I haven't done any research as to potential problems with a vibrating collar.

An audible tone is a better solution because the coat type of the dog is irrelevant with them. Most working dogs aren't deaf, and a tone just works well. Working dogs are taught to work both on visual and auditory commands, so I would want an audible method to communicate with a dog if I were to get an e-collar. The tone is just an extension of the verbal commands we already are using.

EDIT- The e-collar shock is meant to hurt the dog so you don't need to use it. One hard hit can make the dog understand quickly what is desired. You only use an e-collar for advanced training, and when you know that the dog understands the command. It is the last resort, and the number of times I have used the shock feature on all dogs is less than 10. E-collars can be used for different purposes. I was taught that they are an extreme training tool, and should be avoided if possible.

The old TriTronics collars only had a few stim settings, and they were all very high. Collars are not designed that way anymore. One of the largest and most respected collar manujfacturers today, Dogtra, uses a vibrate function, and another large company , Innotex and Tri Tronics use a tone. It's like Ford and Chevy, some prefer one over the other for various reasons. Again , you keep repeating the totally false information that the E collar is meant to hurt the dog... I don't know why you do that, but it is totally incorrect if the collar is used properly. You can hurt a dog with a collar and leash if you use them improperly, and yet people don't say that a collar and leash are "designed to hurt the dog".......

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by RonE

I must be stupid. I cannot understand how they work if you feel nothing at all. Do they release an offensive oder? Play Barry Manilow ballads? Offer backseat driving tips?

I've never used one, so I am asking as a curious bystander. But some of the things I'm reading here defy logic.

May I suggest that you go to a store or find a trainer or owner and ask for a demo of an E Collar. Place the collar on your arm, and set it for a minimum stim. Press the button, and you will probably feel nothing at all. Now gradually increase the stim level with either a knob or digital setting, until you just feel a "tingle" from the collar. That is the way you would set it on the dog. You look at the dog, and gradually increase the setting until you see a slight reaction from the dog, like an eye blink or the type of reaction the dog would give if a fly landed on it's neck. That is where you leave the setting for training. At that point, if you want, you can take the collar back off the dog and put it on your arm and hit the button with the same setting you just set for the dog. Many people will find that they can barely feel anything, and that the setting of the collar is now below the setting that they had dialed up when they were trying to see how the collar felt. In other words, the dog may use a lower stim setting than a person could even feel. All dogs, and all people are different, and that is why there are so many stim levels on the better collars. Here would be a good way to compare a collar and leash to an E collar. Take a prong collat, and put it on your arm, and have someone give you a leash pop correction. You see if that is more disturbing that the little tingle you felt with the E Collar. I'll let you be the judge of that

Now if your dog is charging into the street, and you want to stop the dog, before it gets hit by a truck, then you would use a very high stim level, which would have the same effect as an electric fence or bark collar. One or two of these stims, and the dog won't be chasing cars anymore. Does this bother the dog, I am certain it does, but having the trucks front tire crushing the dogs head would bother the dog alot more.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Shalva

and this is inherently the problem with e collars......

people don't know how they work and don't know how to use them......
they are available at any darned pet supply place and until the person has been trained to how to use them they shouldn't be allowed to buy one.

I know lots of field and hunt folks use ecollars to give the dog signals when they are way way out in the field ...... I have seen them used appropriately and I agree with Capt.Bob. I have also seen them used badly.... and I watched a woman at a field training class.... she didn't want her dog to run the bank..... lots of dogs won't take an angle across a stream when they are working they will run the bank and then cross in a straight line... so every time her dog went to cross in the wrong place she zapped and I mean zapped the dog.... well... basically she taught her working retriever to be afraid of water......

most people don't know what the heck they are doing with an e collar.....

I have not personally used one.... I have not needed to although maybe at some point I will.... right now it hasn't been a problem....

but that is my biggest complaint about e collars.
s

I agree with you, and I don't think people should use and E Collar unless they hire a trainer that has a great deal of E Collar experience. But then, I don't think some people should be training their dogs at all anyway. People hitting dogs, shouting at the dog, yanking the dog's leash, slapping it with the end of the leash, all can ruin a dog pretty quickly. People do these things to dogs every day, and think they are doing a great job of training their dogs. Then they can't figure out why the dog becomes aggressive, or can't be trained at all, and winds up being brought to a pound.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by Captbob

Again , you keep repeating the totally false information that the E collar is meant to hurt the dog... I don't know why you do that, but it is totally incorrect if the collar is used properly. You can hurt a dog with a collar and leash if you use them improperly, and yet people don't say that a collar and leash are "designed to hurt the dog".......

I saw a beautiful flat coat with permanent nerve damage caused by being jerked on a choke collar..... a beautiful dog.... I have seen other dogs that are made aggressive my prong collars.... any tool if abused can harm, hurt, and cause permanent damage.....

look at all the prong collars out there... with people jerking away on them..... shoot there are ways to abuse anything.....

if an ecollar is used properly by a trained person it gives the dog a signal a cue as to what to do next.....

in the untrained hand its a menace.....

and that is the problem ...... with any tool.....

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Shalva

I saw a beautiful flat coat with permanent nerve damage caused by being jerked on a choke collar..... a beautiful dog.... I have seen other dogs that are made aggressive my prong collars.... any tool if abused can harm, hurt, and cause permanent damage.....

look at all the prong collars out there... with people jerking away on them..... shoot there are ways to abuse anything.....

if an ecollar is used properly by a trained person it gives the dog a signal a cue as to what to do next.....

in the untrained hand its a menace.....

and that is the problem ...... with any tool.....

Most people do not even know how to put a prong collar on. They have it so loose that it can rotate and the prongs are now pinching the dog's throat. I have also seen people try and slip a prong collar over a dogs head, to put it on. Now that is world class stupid in my opinion. I even saw this done at a Pet Smart one day, by a clerk.

Years ago the Germans did some research on Police and Guard dogs trained exclusively with choke collars. Doing a necropsy on the dogs, they found muscle damage on every dog right where the chain goes though the loop on the choke collar. http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/fitprong.pdf

[Alpha]

I hate to seem arguementative, trully because I agree with much, if not all that has been said on this thread, I just can't sit here and see the e-collar portrayed as this wonderful, everything's happy method.

Surely with the proper methods, based on correction and reward it can be a happy training regiment for your dog,(such as explained in the link Ginny posted) but the basis of the method is it's uncomfortable for your dog so they work to avoid the aversive.

I don't understand why some can't admit this. I'm not even using the word pain, but admit that it is uncomfortable for your dog.

If you want to educate people about the subject don't leave the important part out. WHY this method works. WHY do dogs comply with this aversive your setting forth? Because it is not a pleasant feeling. Period.

That's all I want some to admit. I'm not trying to say that it's abusive or even painful, but it IS uncomfortable. Heck, I've used it on MY own dog, I'm not trying to make it sound awful or evil, but I can't stand to see people down play, and on top of it, not answer why it works if I'm wrong.

[Renoman]

Okay, here goes. Let me just stoke the fire here. Have any of you every had physical therapy using a tens unit? Know what it is? It's an electrical muscle stimulator. When used properly, it is very effective in helping to stimulate the weak or damaged muscle and it doesn't hurt, it just feels funny. It can be painful if set at a higher intensity than you're accustomed to or ready for. Everyone has their own pain threshold, as do dogs. Scuffling across a carpet and getting shocked with the light switch can hurt if you're not expecting it.

When used properly, an e-collar does not and is not meant to hurt a dog. It is an attention getter and if you are using the collar properly, the stimulation your dog receives should be no more than the stimulation you receive from a tens unit set at a level comfortable for you. The key here is to find a level that gets your dogs attention without hurting. If your dog yelps, that's too high. If your dog ignores the stimulation completely, it's too low.

If my dog is a quarter mile away from me and I see he is about to head into trouble, I will give him a signal to return to me. One low, quick, "Hey, come back to me". What's worse, that one quick HEY, or being hit by a tractor trailer? Maybe I'm using the wrong analogies here, but you get the point, I hope.

Yes, today's collars are much more advanced with the tone and vibration. They're fantastic. Teaching the dog to respond to the tone as a warning is a wonderful option. Again, depending on the dog, as each dog has their own personality and pain threshold. Just as a parenthetical aside, my female shepherd Tessa, was the hardest dog I have ever trained. She had a pain threshold whose limit I never really wanted to test and she thumbed her nose at the tone - you could visibly see her making an obscene gesture. Some dogs never need to be on a collar. That's fantastic and lucky you. Other dogs, need that extra something a collar provides if necessary.

Again, basic training is not where you want to use the collar. If you start there, you have no place else to go if you need it. It is a training device that should be used for advanced training, reinforcement of commands, and to eliminate bad behaviors and it is not meant to hurt. Those that think otherwise are thoroughly misinformed.

[Alpha]

That was a wonderful post Renoman.

To be honest, I've never had the muscle therapy treatment you were speaking about, but I think I get the idea.

[Renoman]

Thank you. I only want people to understand what an e-collar is about before condemning it.

[Alpha]

I don't want to discourage people either, I just feel that when it comes to aversives in dog training generally, you should use them with reserve and only where needed. And if you so choose to use a physical aversive, know darn well what your getting into before you yank that chain, or push that button.

[Shalva]

I also have had a tens unit... I actually own my own after a serious injury and it is the only thing that kept me out of pain for years....

I think it depends on how you are using the ecollar.... if you are using it as corrective.... then yes it is designed to startle to be an aversive.... however if you are using as a guide then it is designed to give a cue..... that is how most i know of use it in the field.

I have considered using one with a barker that I have at my house at present... do I want it to zap the heck out of him no.... but do I want to give him that instantaneous correction before we get kicked out of the neighborhood for him barking... then yeah....

i think it all depends on why you are using it.
s

[Ginny01OT]

Shalva, are you in pain when you use the tens unit? I sure hope not, I use it on patients all the time for injuries, etc. It gets your attention but it doesn't cause pain (or shouldn't)

[Shalva]

no my tens unit helps a great deal......i tend to feel like a frankenstein monster with all of my wires but it helps the pain alot.... I had a plow decide to park atop my car with me in it a while back so I have CNS damage..... doesn't stop me from doing anything I want but the tens unit is a wonderful thing... I was nervous about it at first but it actually is great.....

s

[Ginny01OT]

yeah, I use it on CVA patients that have nerve damage. I have had it used on my back for sciatica and I have used it on my neck which is all messed up for some reason. When used properly it is a pretty cool tool.

[Renoman]

See, used correctly, everything is a wonderful tool. Used improperly, anything can be abusive.

You want to stop inappropriate barking before the neighbors revolt, startling the dog when he barks could be just the cure.

I'm not saying that the collar is the 'magic cure all' for every situation. You need to do an individual assessment. If you've tried everything else and it didn't work, maybe the collar is what you need. If the circumstances preclude you from using any other correction, maybe the collar is what you need. If you need to cue a dog from a distance, maybe the collar is what you need. It is an individual decision. But, before you put that collar around your dog's neck, you need to be totally informed and trained on using the collar.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Renoman

Okay, here goes. Let me just stoke the fire here. Have any of you every had physical therapy using a tens unit? Know what it is? It's an electrical muscle stimulator. When used properly, it is very effective in helping to stimulate the weak or damaged muscle and it doesn't hurt, it just feels funny. It can be painful if set at a higher intensity than you're accustomed to or ready for. Everyone has their own pain threshold, as do dogs. Scuffling across a carpet and getting shocked with the light switch can hurt if you're not expecting it.

When used properly, an e-collar does not and is not meant to hurt a dog. It is an attention getter and if you are using the collar properly, the stimulation your dog receives should be no more than the stimulation you receive from a tens unit set at a level comfortable for you. The key here is to find a level that gets your dogs attention without hurting. If your dog yelps, that's too high. If your dog ignores the stimulation completely, it's too low.

If my dog is a quarter mile away from me and I see he is about to head into trouble, I will give him a signal to return to me. One low, quick, "Hey, come back to me". What's worse, that one quick HEY, or being hit by a tractor trailer? Maybe I'm using the wrong analogies here, but you get the point, I hope.

Yes, today's collars are much more advanced with the tone and vibration. They're fantastic. Teaching the dog to respond to the tone as a warning is a wonderful option. Again, depending on the dog, as each dog has their own personality and pain threshold. Just as a parenthetical aside, my female shepherd Tessa, was the hardest dog I have ever trained. She had a pain threshold whose limit I never really wanted to test and she thumbed her nose at the tone - you could visibly see her making an obscene gesture. Some dogs never need to be on a collar. That's fantastic and lucky you. Other dogs, need that extra something a collar provides if necessary.

Again, basic training is not where you want to use the collar. If you start there, you have no place else to go if you need it. It is a training device that should be used for advanced training, reinforcement of commands, and to eliminate bad behaviors and it is not meant to hurt. Those that think otherwise are thoroughly misinformed.

That is what I have been trying to explain on this thread, for I don't know how many posts ( you can count them, I bet there is almost a dozen) . I gave very detailed descriptions of how the collars are used, who makes them, how they have improved in recent years, how they are calibrated, how you can hardly feel the stim that many dogs can, how you should be trained to use them, etc..., etc...... I guarantee, it won't be long before someone posts how painfull an E Collar is, and how much it hurts the dog "because that is what it is designed to do and if you use one on your pet , you are a cruel and sadistic person that likes to torture animals....... ...