[Jen D]

Captbob, I also never said anything about fault of the collar

[Tamara]

Thanks Renoman for posting this it has been really interesting.
Perhaps the e-collar is good as a last resort or for a working dog used properly. But there were a lot more working dogs working before such a tool was even possible. Like alpha says it is aversive training. And Bob I would much rather spend 100 goes at getting my dogs to listen to ME rather than a collar. Isn't that the great satisfaction about teaching our dogs?

[Alpha]

CaptBob- It's pretty obvious that no one else on this board, other than yourself has any experience with the e-collar. Once again, you've decided to read past my post when there was an important, logical, reasonable question within. That's probably why you skipped past it anyways..


If the e-collar doesn't HURT the dog or make them feel UNCOMFORTABLE WHY THEN DOES IT WORK?????

This is exactly what I find scary about using the e-collar, (personally and others) or ANY type of physical correction.

If your in denial about HOW and WHY it works, your dog could suffer serious damage from you methods/usage.

At least admit, that your dog does not enjoy the feeling, it's not pleasant, it's not completely comfortable and THAT'S why you get the behaviour your looking for. Being in denial about the effect it has on your dog is why so many trainers/behaviourists see negative effects from the e-collar.

People who think it's a magical, happy way to quickly train their dog to do something. When it's not. It's an aversive, an uncomfortable aversive, that your dog works to avoid. Admit it, so people thinking about getting an e-collar don't see it as a rainbow and ice cream training method because it isn't. The sooner you admit to yourself WHY this aversive works, the better off your dog will be.

[Renoman]

It has been interesting! The opinions expressed here are as diverse as the posters. I agree that the collar should not be used in basic training. It should only be used in advanced training and only to enforce the commands your dog alread knows or as a control for off leash at a distance. I'm sure this isn't the end of the debate.

[Jen D]

If people count on these collars all the time what are they going to do if lets say the dog gets out or the thing isn't working?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

This, again , shows me that you probably have very little if any experience using an E Collar.

And this shows me that you know nothing about aversives, which is scary. This must be the 20th time I've heard this, but it's never followed by anything educational. Sometimes we get an explanation, but it doesn't explain how it teaches a dog to learn. You don't need to explain this to me Bob, I understand. I think you avoid it because you know it's an aversion, but one that's acceptable to you. But just because it works for you and your dog does not mean it's an appropriate type of training for all dog, and I would say it's appropriate for few dogs.

But I guess your the expert after all, lol, right? Please continue to make assumptions of what I do and do not know, I enjoy the laughs, but I'll continue to assume you don't know what aversives are.

Remember Bob, "it's not rocket science." To quote your buddy Ed.

[SFury]

The fastest form of training is in the use of various aversive stimuli. E-collars have the greatest stimuli of all. The spasm does hurt for the time it is being administered, but the pain for a quick shock lasts a second at most. The pain also quickly goes away. I have never done more than a quick shock to any dog. I have never needed more than that.

The new collars that vibrate, and/or tone dogs are using a form of aversive stimuli.

Making a dog understand the word "no" means it has acted badly is a form of aversion training.

Most people candy train their dogs with treats. Candy training is easy and uses no aversion at all. It is hard to undo the lack of response without the treat. You need to do reverse training and that can be a challenge unto itself. Although candy training should be saved for another conversation.

[Ginny01OT]

[quote=Alpha;64263]CaptBob- It's pretty obvious that no one else on this board, other than yourself has any experience with the e-collar. Once again, you've decided to read past my post when there was an important, logical, reasonable question within. That's probably why you skipped past it anyways..


If the e-collar doesn't HURT the dog or make them feel UNCOMFORTABLE WHY THEN DOES IT WORK?????

An e-collar when set properly is the equivalent of someone poking you on your shoulder--if someone is poking you over and over on your shoulder what do you do? You turn to them and ask them what they want. You will usually do what they want to stop the annoyance of the poking shoulder. Simplistically that is how an e-collar should work. The dog will focus his attention on the stimuli and perform the act that stops it--coming, sitting, down. It should never hurt the dog but be high enough that you can see they are at least feeling the stimuli on a low constant level.

On the other hand, electronic fences ARE painful--the pain teaches the dog to never go near that area again. So that works for containment.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

CaptBob- It's pretty obvious that no one else on this board, other than yourself has any experience with the e-collar. Once again, you've decided to read past my post when there was an important, logical, reasonable question within. That's probably why you skipped past it anyways..


If the e-collar doesn't HURT the dog or make them feel UNCOMFORTABLE WHY THEN DOES IT WORK?????

This is exactly what I find scary about using the e-collar, (personally and others) or ANY type of physical correction.

If your in denial about HOW and WHY it works, your dog could suffer serious damage from you methods/usage.

At least admit, that your dog does not enjoy the feeling, it's not pleasant, it's not completely comfortable and THAT'S why you get the behaviour your looking for. Being in denial about the effect it has on your dog is why so many trainers/behaviourists see negative effects from the e-collar.

People who think it's a magical, happy way to quickly train their dog to do something. When it's not. It's an aversive, an uncomfortable aversive, that your dog works to avoid. Admit it, so people thinking about getting an e-collar don't see it as a rainbow and ice cream training method because it isn't. The sooner you admit to yourself WHY this aversive works, the better off your dog will be.

My dog thinks a mild tug on her nylon collar and leash with me holding the leash with my fingertips, is unpleasant. Certainly the many owners I see yanking on choke and prong collars on their dogs , is torture compared to an E Collar. If you have the time and patience to train your dog "off leash", with a bucketfull of treats with no corrections at all, that's great. Many dogs do not respond to that type of training, however, and corrections have to be used. Leash pops, a slight tug on the leash, whatever you call it. The E Collar gives the dog a type of attention getting leash pop, that does not harm or hurt the dog in any way, and usually after a couple of times, you don't even have to stim the dog again. Trying to discuss E Collar training with someone that is not up to speed on how to train with the new E Collars is almost impossible, in my opinion. When I see someone make statements that are totally false regarding E Collars, I have to object, since it might convince someone who is considering E Collar training that it is a bad , or hurts the animal, which is not true.

Originally Posted by Jen D

If people count on these collars all the time what are they going to do if lets say the dog gets out or the thing isn't working?

The collar is a training tool. Once the dog learns the command, the collar is seldom, if ever activated. If you are letting your dog run loose, lets say in the woods, or at a beach, it is recommended that the collar be placed on the dog , just in case it gets too far away to hear the owner. You can also use the tone or vibrate function to alert the dog, rather than the stim.

[Sookie's mom]

My Goodness! The use of an e-collar is certainly controversial! My question should be less interesting.....
I have 3 dogs. My 9yr old aus-shepard/chow has a problem of barking(!) over and over at the most annoying pitch and at anything. I have neighbors close by that have put up with this for years. She will stop when I go out to see what's going on. I don't make a big deal out of it because I've heard that will cause more excitement for her. I bring her inside and she's fine. When I can reach her I'll spray some water in her face to quiet her. Now all I have to do is show her the spray bottle and most of the time she stops. We have a very large tree-filled yard...2/3 of an acre so she doesn't always see me. Long recall will work sometimes. Would this be an appropriate use for an e-collar? What about my other dogs being close by. They all like to wrestle with each other. How does that affect the collar? Could it be damaged or come off easily?

[RonE]

Originally Posted by Ginny01OT

An e-collar when set properly is the equivalent of someone poking you on your shoulder--if someone is poking you over and over on your shoulder what do you do?

If he does it long enough, I'd probably turn around and punch him in the nose.

Any time I might be tempted to hurt Esther physically, even in a very small way, I am mindful that she chooses not to hurt me, tough she has the tools to do so.

[buffytariq]

Originally Posted by RonE

I considered one when my dog was young and out of control but I couldn't visualize a situation where it would actually help.

Now she is much more agreeable and responds well to voice commands, but I'd be interested in hearing any enthusiastic reviews from users who have had success with them.

I don't agree with hem atall. I think that a dog should be trained with commands rather than pain if it does caue any. It does not get the dog sensible but nervous. I'm sorry but i just dont like them.

[LeRoymydog]

THey are not supposed to cause pain at all. It's simply to change the dogs focus. If there is pain, the setting is up to high.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by SFury

The fastest form of training is in the use of various aversive stimuli. E-collars have the greatest stimuli of all. The spasm does hurt for the time it is being administered, but the pain for a quick shock lasts a second at most. The pain also quickly goes away. I have never done more than a quick shock to any dog. I have never needed more than that.

The new collars that vibrate, and/or tone dogs are using a form of aversive stimuli.

Making a dog understand the word "no" means it has acted badly is a form of aversion training.

Most people candy train their dogs with treats. Candy training is easy and uses no aversion at all. It is hard to undo the lack of response without the treat. You need to do reverse training and that can be a challenge unto itself. Although candy training should be saved for another conversation.

The collar does not hurt the dog or cause pain, unless you have it set way to high, which shows that you don't know how to set one, in which case you shouldn't be using it.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by LeRoymydog

THey are not supposed to cause pain at all. It's simply to change the dogs focus. If there is pain, the setting is up to high.

I have seen people on this thread make the statement about the E collar causing the dog pain and hurting the dog, which tells me they don't have any idea how to use an E Collar. If they don't, then why are they trying to convince others that they know what they are talking about It's like stating that if you put any kind of collar on your dog, because it is designed to hurt the dog an cause the dog pain and possibly collapse the dog's trachea, you are using a cruel method to train your dog.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by buffytariq

I don't agree with hem atall. I think that a dog should be trained with commands rather than pain if it does caue any. It does not get the dog sensible but nervous. I'm sorry but i just dont like them.

Have you ever used one?

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by LeRoymydog

THey are not supposed to cause pain at all. It's simply to change the dogs focus. If there is pain, the setting is up to high.

This is the closest anyone has come to answering my question:

"If the e-collar isn't painful,(if used correctly I agree it should not be painful or hurt) or makes the dog uncomfortable, WHY does it work?"

So my question now is this, I personally don't think it changes a dogs focus, but let's say that's why it works. WHY does it change the dogs focus?

When I use food to get my dogs attention, I KNOW that it get's their attention because they want the food. When I stim Roxy with the e-collar, I know it makes her uncomfortable so she complies.

Apparently, the e-collar and stimulation DO NOT work that way according to this thread and no one has answered me HOW they work.

Captbob- I agree they shouldn't cause pain if used correctly I should've made that clear. I also 100% agree that not all dogs can be trained with positive reinforcement. Once again, I agree that the misuse of other collars can be more damaging than an e-collar that's being used PROPERLY. THe reason in your post about giving quick, on the money corrections is also why I resorted to using the collar. I had to get in there quick and give a correction; verbal just wasn't enough of an aversive, food wasn't ceasing the behaviour and a leash pop just wasn't in call for the behaviour, nor could I pop her quick enough to hit the unwanted behaviour in time.

I don't know if your implying that I personally am not up to speed in e-collar theories and training, but I'll let everyone else know that while I'm not a professional e-collar trainer, I have attended seminars and go to school with a woman who gives private lessons for behavioural issues with the e-collar. She too will argue that the e-collar isn't uncomfortable for a dog which I do not agree with, but when it comes to the theory behind the use of e-collars in competitive obedience and field work I've spoken with many reputable and knowledgable about the topic. Personally, I've used an e-collar for a controversial behavioural issue with Fred Hassen's method that he personally used a dog from my school, a flat coated retriever.

I'm not trying to discourage people from buying an e-collar at all. Just trying to get the whole story out there. It isn't the same as positive reinforcement, at all. It's the use of an uncomfortable aversive to get your dog to comply. So many people buy an e-collar, either don't get a trainer at all, or get an "extremist" trainer. They have no idea, or soak up the information the extremist gives them, that the e-collar is uncomfortable for your dog. With that knowledge, people tend to be 100% sure when they press that button, what the effect on their dog is going to be and know darn well in their own head that their dog deserved it. If people don't know, or won't admit that it's uncomfortable, they're a little more slack with thinking before pressing that button.

Anyone care to answer why the e-collar works? As in a full explanation of HOW the collar gets their attention, and WHY they comply with the aversive.

[Ginny01OT]

http://www.coondawgs.com/articles/ecollars.pdf

I think this article explains how the e-collar works (like the fourth or fifth paragraphy). I tried to cut and paste it but it wouldn't let me.

[Alpha]

Probably because it's adobe format, reading now.

Thanks Ginny

Edited- I'm only on the second page, but I've already found what I'm looking for:

"Now it's time to train. It is time to allow the dog to learn that it can turn the uncomfotable twitching sensation off."

I'm going to keep reading though in case I've misinterpreted it.

[SFury]

Originally Posted by Captbob

The collar does not hurt the dog or cause pain, unless you have it set way to high, which shows that you don't know how to set one, in which case you shouldn't be using it.

E-collars cause a certain amount of pain. No matter hoe you sugar coat it, they do cause pain. Pain is a variable item. It doesn't have to be excruciating. Discomfort is pain.

Think of it this way, all discomfort is pain, but not all pain is discomfort. If there was no stimuli, then E-collars would never have been useful, and wouldn't be so widespread in use today.

The first thing I was taught is that E-collars cause pain, and should be used sparingly.

You have also missed the fact that I have said multiple times now that the new collars are far better now. Most of them can now tone, or vibrate. This allows for a different stimulus to be used other than pain.