[SFury]

My father and I were trained how to use an E-collar to field train golden retrievers. E-collars are an amazing tool that can help training tremendously. However, they can cause great problems if used improperly.

As someone already said is that a dog must know the basic concept of the commmand you are reinforcing before you use an E-collar. If they don't you will most likely ruin the dog. I have seen people destroy the confidence of perfectly good dogs.

I have used a few different E-collars now, and I like the the ones that can tone, or vibrate, because you can do a non-harmful warning first. This makes the training with an E-collar easier than the old E-collars that were shock only.

Also, if you do use an E-collar, you have to set them to the proper level so that the dog doesn't become immune to them. If they don't yelp, and yes there are dogs that will never yelp which makes this a lot harder, then they are not getting hit hard enough. An E-collar is meant to hurt them enough to make them listen to us. If it doesn't, then at a critical moment they may not listen and bad things can happen.

Once a dog gets used to an E-collar, after a few months its normally just on if used properly. The amount of time needed does vary from dog to dog though. It is a reminder of what is expected. My father only tones his golden once in a great while when out in the field with him. He does work for some of his food retrieving birds after all.

That being said, I don't have an E-collar. I don't field train my dogs, and I have an invisible fence around my yard. They associate the shock with something else so an E-collar would be counterproductive for me.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I have to seriously disagree that e-collars should be used for basic training, why?

Basic training with 99% of the dogs out there in the world does not require an aversive like an e-collar or even a prong.

Both of my dogs, completely different in personality, and how they learn, have a tonne of excercises down pat that were done without the aid of an e-collar, and they aren't "normal" or average pet owner excercises.

When it comes to aversives, I start out with none, than slowly work my way up the ladder, from verbal aversives, to leash corrections and my last resort for some dangerous behaviours from Roxy was the e-collar. Definitely not the first training aid I reach for when we meet an obstacle in training.

I completely agree with, and understand using an aversive like an e-collar for a behavioural issue that is not ceasing with all the other methods, but I guess I'll never understand why someone would choose to use the e-collar as their FIRST and ONLY training tool with a dog.

Renoman- I also agree that one good correction is much better than a bunch of nagging, but what people don't understand, is the e-collar or some more "harsh" aversives, are NOT for every dog. If you slapped an e-collar on my Hades and used it as your only training method, you'd have a dog that didn't want to work. One good correction for my Hades is a sharp verbal correction.

The e-collar is NOT for every dog, and many of the e-collar trainers I've spoken with will agree.

I think the general public needs to be educated about the topic, but it needs to be made clear that it shouldn't be: 1) your only method 2) Your first method.

There are a tonne of less invasive methods out there, that work just fine with 99% of the dog population when it comes to joe average's pet dog.

If you think the E collar is a harsh aversive, you don't know how to use it.

Originally Posted by SFury

My father and I were trained how to use an E-collar to field train golden retrievers. E-collars are an amazing tool that can help training tremendously. However, they can cause great problems if used improperly.

As someone already said is that a dog must know the basic concept of the commmand you are reinforcing before you use an E-collar. If they don't you will most likely ruin the dog. I have seen people destroy the confidence of perfectly good dogs.

I have used a few different E-collars now, and I like the the ones that can tone, or vibrate, because you can do a non-harmful warning first. This makes the training with an E-collar easier than the old E-collars that were shock only.

Also, if you do use an E-collar, you have to set them to the proper level so that the dog doesn't become immune to them. If they don't yelp, and yes there are dogs that will never yelp which makes this a lot harder, then they are not getting hit hard enough. An E-collar is meant to hurt them enough to make them listen to us. If it doesn't, then at a critical moment they may not listen and bad things can happen.

Once a dog gets used to an E-collar, after a few months its normally just on if used properly. The amount of time needed does vary from dog to dog though. It is a reminder of what is expected. My father only tones his golden once in a great while when out in the field with him. He does work for some of his food retrieving birds after all.

That being said, I don't have an E-collar. I don't field train my dogs, and I have an invisible fence around my yard. They associate the shock with something else so an E-collar would be counterproductive for me.

If the dog vocalizes ( yelps) , the level you are using is way too high. It is not meant to hurt them, but to get their attention, and people that use an E collar improperly, which you are describing that you do in your post, should take lessons from a trainer experienced in E Collar use.

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

I think if you read a little further down you'll see that I have and lost a dog to one. Which I also think I've discussed SEVERAL times before. Don't care to dredge up bad memories.

One of the things that are clearly stated in the directions, is that they should not be used on a dog that has any heart problems.

Originally Posted by Alpha

Renoman- Don't take offense to this, I hope it doesn't sound offensive, it's not trully Just some honest questions!

You say that your dogs are now collar smart and they have to wear the collar for it to have an effect correct?

IMO, this is not a good training tool. A good training tool, is just that. You use it, it works, you stop using it, like a crutch. You use it while you have to, than you stop.

My dogs, one which is human agressive, another which is pitbull and can tend to be "gamey" in some situations, are off lead everyday, and have a 100% reliable recall, without any collar on.

Wouldn't a better method, be one that you use, works, and that's it?

I mean, to me, it's comparable to having to use food EVERYTIME as a lure to get your dog to sit. It's not a very good method if you have to use it even after the dog is performing said behaviour right?

That's just my take on how you posted your experience with the e-collar. If your dogs have to use this tool ALL the time to perform said behaviour, it's not a good method, or one that's very "complete", balanced or overall effective.

Dogs get collar smart, because the only time the trainer uses the collar is during instruction when they are stimmed. They should get collar conditioned first, wearing the collar for a week or two with no collar training given. Most dogs will only have to be stimmed a few times to learn a command with the collar. If you are stimming the dog several times each day, day after day, only when they are wearing the collar, then they will get collar smart. Again, a good E Collar trainer will show you how to avoid that problem.
Also this DVD explains how to avoid the problem in the first place, or cure it if it happens.

http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm

[Ginny01OT]

CaptBob you are exactly right, my dog just wore the collar for a while to get used to it and the amount of stimulation should never make a dog yelp--although if my dog was chasing a deer and heading for a street I think I would make him yelp if I really had to

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

If you think the E collar is a harsh aversive, you don't know how to use it.

Regardless if it's a just a sound, a vibrate, a nick, a pulse, a shock, it's still can be an aversive. Being called an aversive does not mean harsh, yet, some dogs don't react to aversives at any level, well. Thankfully, you don't own one of these dogs.

E-collars have their place, but it's not for every dog, and not necessary for many dog owners. This isn't a statement against e-collars, but rather a statement of what it is...a tool. A tool that requires expertice in using. It's not and never will be the miracle solution to dog training. There are no miracles, only better understand and commitment to dog ownership.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Ginny01OT

CaptBob you are exactly right, my dog just wore the collar for a while to get used to it and the amount of stimulation should never make a dog yelp--although if my dog was chasing a deer and heading for a street I think I would make him yelp if I really had to

That is the one time that they recommend using the highest stim possible, if the dog is doing something that is potentially dangerous and must be stopped.

[Jen D]

Hate them unless you are a hunter and need the control from a great distance! I had a dog who weighed more then I did and was having a difficult time with him and did not know why. I train myself so this had me really going nuts about this dog so I hired a trainer and he had over 30 years of experience and he could not tell what was going on either so he recomended the e collar. Due to this being this dogs last chance I got one was trained to use it and the women training me to use would not get near this dog so that is how bad he had gotten. I went home with dog and collar, put it on him and when he started acting up I shocked him with the control behind me so he could not see where it was coming from. This is how I was tought to do it , well that dog turned right around new that is was me and came after me. I was able to get him under control but then went to the vet and explained what was going on. I told my vet how things were getting worse and he looked over that dog with a fine tooth comb and found a very small spot on him. They took it off, it looked like a small wart and a week later I got the call that my dog Kado only three years had cancer and only a few months to live. It was medical that is why he got so aggressive! he had been through training, with other dogs and alone myself everyday I worked with him. So that was my experience with the e collar, I feel good positive training is the best! If people are looking for a quick fix don't get a dog.

[SFury]

Originally Posted by Captbob

If the dog vocalizes ( yelps) , the level you are using is way too high. It is not meant to hurt them, but to get their attention, and people that use an E collar improperly, which you are describing that you do in your post, should take lessons from a trainer experienced in E Collar use.

I was trained by an experienced trainer. The yelp was used as a marker in years past to allow the handler who was often a 100+ yards away to know that the dog in training received the warning. 15 years ago E-collars weren't nearly as good as they are now. At that time there were no adjustable shock level transmitters. Everything was hard set. Those are the conditions I was trained to use an E-collar. I worked with goldens and labrador retrievers who are resilient and quick learning dogs. There were some dogs that I was taught to identify as no E-collar animals because they couldn't handle any type of shock.

The new collars are far more dog friendly these days, and I have had little need to use my father's new E-collar. It has a variable shock rate control on the transmitter as well as a tone feature. The tone feature alone has made the training of his golden super easy. You don't need a whistle to communicate your desire with your dog, and the communication delay is basically gone. The tools have improved, and the dogs have benefitted from the improvements.

I don't take the use of an E-collar lightly, and don't use one because my dogs don't need that type of training. To be honest E-collar training would be bad with my dogs. They don't have the right personality to even consider E-collar training with them.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Jen D

Hate them unless you are a hunter and need the control from a great distance! I had a dog who weighed more then I did and was having a difficult time with him and did not know why. I train myself so this had me really going nuts about this dog so I hired a trainer and he had over 30 years of experience and he could not tell what was going on either so he recomended the e collar. Due to this being this dogs last chance I got one was trained to use it and the women training me to use would not get near this dog so that is how bad he had gotten. I went home with dog and collar, put it on him and when he started acting up I shocked him with the control behind me so he could not see where it was coming from. This is how I was tought to do it , well that dog turned right around new that is was me and came after me. I was able to get him under control but then went to the vet and explained what was going on. I told my vet how things were getting worse and he looked over that dog with a fine tooth comb and found a very small spot on him. They took it off, it looked like a small wart and a week later I got the call that my dog Kado only three years had cancer and only a few months to live. It was medical that is why he got so aggressive! he had been through training, with other dogs and alone myself everyday I worked with him. So that was my experience with the e collar, I feel good positive training is the best! If people are looking for a quick fix don't get a dog.

Whoever showed you how to use he e Collar, didn't know what they were doing. That is not a fault of the collar.

[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by Captbob

One of the things that are clearly stated in the directions, is that they should not be used on a dog that has any heart problems.

We didn't know about the problem, that's why I always tell people about this danger. Many people never read the directions and at times the heart problem is undetected. I myself have a heart murmer that I was born with, it only shows up under stressful situations. The same often happens with dogs, regular vet checks often don't find it, you haveto be LOOKING for the problem.

[Alpha]

An aversive is something a dog is willing to work to avoid.

When you compare other aversives, like negative punishment or verbal aversives to the e-collar, yes it is a harsh aversive.

You can't deny that it makes the dog uncomfortable, why else does it work? It makes them feel happy? They don't feel it all? Or it's unexpected, and get's their attention because it makes them UNCOMFORTABLE?

Why do dogs work to AVOID the stimulation of the e-collar? I mean, if it doesn't hurt them why would they care??? They work to avoid the stim because it is an unpleasant, possibly scary feeling for some dogs.

If you think I'm wrong, I'd love to hear everyone's explanation on why the e-collar works if you don't think it's uncomfortable for a dog....

I mean, how many dogs do you think would withstand getting stimulated all the time? Why is that? Because it makes them uncomfortable. Whether dogs who are trained solely with e-collars become immune to it, or less bothered is besides the point.

Like a prong collar, sure, it may not HURT some dogs, but it definitely makes them uncomfortable.

Renoman- That was a great explanation, it sounds like you are one of very few that have an idea about the e-collar.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I mean, how many dogs do you think would withstand getting stimulated all the time? Why is that? Because it makes them uncomfortable. Whether dogs who are trained solely with e-collars become immune to it, or less bothered is besides the point.

If you are stiming a dog "all the time", then there is something drastically wrong with your E Collar training methods. I watched someone train a dog to come on command, and he low level stimmed the dog 5 times, and didn't have to stim it anymore after that.

[Alpha]

You totally missed my point.

If the e-collar doesn't cause a dog pain or discomfort, than technically, you could stimulate your dog 24 hours a day 7 days a week and it wouldn't be an issue, right?

It was a rhetorical question, NO dog could stand being stimulated all the time. (And I don't mean the method, I mean if it's such a mild aversive, you should be able to stim your dog persistently without a negative effect)

My point is, some people are in denial, or just don't realize, that the reason the e-collar works is because it's uncomfortable for your dog. I've used it on my dog, I'll admit it. That's why it works, it's a quick correction that startles her and is not a pleasant feeling so I can get the behaviour I want/don't want.

So for those using the e-collar for basic training, this is where I get lost. There's always the exception, but the majority of dogs could be trained basic behaviours, like sit/down/come/stand etc. without the use of an e-collar or typically ANY aversive that causes pain or discomfort. So why chose a method that does cause unpleasant feelings for your dog if you haven't even tried other methods, like shaping or a reward system.

I understand and have spoken with a number of field competitors, and their use of the "invisible leash" makes sense. Their dog is not only off leash, but is required to do specific commands/cues from a distance. How many average pet owners require their dog to go out on a line and on command turn and wait for direction?

Not many. Off leash walking, heck ya! But advanced behaviours like field competitors, I think not personally.

I can also understand using the e-collar for a specific problem, like I did, or a few people on this thread have mentioned. Makes sense IMO, but for every behaviour you introduced to your dog? I just don't get it...

[SFury]

So many people want to use E-collars for basic training. That is not what they are meant to be used for. They are meant to be used for long distance command training and potentially as an "invisible leash" for a dog. I hesitate to mention the "invisible leash" because so many people do use E-collars improperly.

Training a dog to take a line over long distances, and getting them to adjust their position in relation to the object being retrieved is not trivial. It takes time and patience.

I have never used an E-collar to train dogs with the basic commands. That's being abusive IMHO when you can just keep them leashed instead. Sit, stay, come/here, and other simple commands don't require any sort of aversive stimuli that an E-collar provides. Repetition makes perfect and the leash soon becomes uneccassary.

I also understand that an E-collar is meant to hurt the dog. That is the point. With proper use of an E-collar you rarely need to use the shock feature. That went for years past, and especially holds true for today. The tone feature on my Father's E-collar makes it so much more effective of a tool. Being able to provide another reliable stimuli instantly is great for advanced training. It's easier on the dog, and it makes it easier for my family to use the E-collar. My family has never wanted to hurt our companions.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by SFury

So many people want to use E-collars for basic training. That is not what they are meant to be used for. They are meant to be used for long distance command training and potentially as an "invisible leash" for a dog. I hesitate to mention the "invisible leash" because so many people do use E-collars improperly.

Training a dog to take a line over long distances, and getting them to adjust their position in relation to the object being retrieved is not trivial. It takes time and patience.

I have never used an E-collar to train dogs with the basic commands. That's being abusive IMHO when you can just keep them leashed instead. Sit, stay, come/here, and other simple commands don't require any sort of aversive stimuli that an E-collar provides. Repetition makes perfect and the leash soon becomes uneccassary.

I also understand that an E-collar is meant to hurt the dog. That is the point. With proper use of an E-collar you rarely need to use the shock feature. That went for years past, and especially holds true for today. The tone feature on my Father's E-collar makes it so much more effective of a tool. Being able to provide another reliable stimuli instantly is great for advanced training. It's easier on the dog, and it makes it easier for my family to use the E-collar. My family has never wanted to hurt our companions.

The stim doesn't hurt the dog ( have you ever tried it on yourself?)

[SFury]

It causes a muscle spasm. It doesn't really hurt, but it does tingle. I was told before I could ever use an E-collar I had to try it on myself. So I did.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by SFury

It causes a muscle spasm. It doesn't really hurt, but it does tingle. I was told before I could ever use an E-collar I had to try it on myself. So I did.

But you said in your above statement that I quoted, that it was meant to "hurt the dog".....

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

The stim doesn't hurt the dog ( have you ever tried it on yourself?)

When I was younger, my brother use to give me wedgies on a daily basis. It didn't hurt, but they were certainly annoying. The solution to my problem was a swift kick to my brother's nads. I don't want a dog that will consider a swift kick to my nads by using an e-collar.

I'm afraid that your claim that it doesn't "hurt" is nothing more than anthropomorphism, and we're all guilty of it.

[kingrex]

No Thats Cruel

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

When I was younger, my brother use to give me wedgies on a daily basis. It didn't hurt, but they were certainly annoying. The solution to my problem was a swift kick to my brother's nads. I don't want a dog that will consider a swift kick to my nads by using an e-collar.

I'm afraid that your claim that it doesn't "hurt" is nothing more than anthropomorphism, and we're all guilty of it.

This, again , shows me that you probably have very little if any experience using an E Collar.

[Jen D]

Originally Posted by Captbob

Whoever showed you how to use he e Collar, didn't know what they were doing. That is not a fault of the collar.

I just joined and thought that opinions were wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had a trainer that has been doing the e collar for years and in this area has a great reputation. I beleive in positive training that is my opinion! and I had a very bad experience with it. I also am not an idiot and have been working with dogs for years, rescue and volunteering at pounds so dog can get adopted.