[eley]

GoodBullyLLC, so what you're saying is that Alpha rolls are used as means to end an immediate behaviour, but not as a long term solution?. I have read about a number of trainers that use them sucessfuly, but for what I understand the person rolling the dog has to know EXACTLY what they are doing. It's one of those things that there is way too much that can go wrong and way to little room for error, if I'm understanding correctly.

I guess we're talking about two different worlds here, dog owners and dog pros. But this is part of the point I've been trying to make all along. Whether you like Cesar Millan or not, you have to agree with one thing, there's a number of ignorant, stupid people that will go and immitate whatever they see on tv, just because it's on tv. And while the fallout and consecuences are not in anyway Millan's fault (blaming him for idiots rolling dogs, would be as fair as blaming Trading Spaces for people messing up their homes), I do believe that not enough emphasis is placed in the fact that Millan is a pro and he SHOULD NOT be immitated by John Q Public.

There is one thing about being a pro, and that is you make whatever it is you are a professional at look easy. So easy that in some instances people can't figure out why they called a pro if they could've done ______ in the first place.

So while I agree that leash corrections, pinch and e-collars and other things do have their place and use in the dog world, I believe not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that these things are TOOLS. So we spend more time de-mystifying that alpha rolls, pinch collars and the like are evil like they have been portrayed to be, that we forget to remind people that while they aren't by any means off limits, they do have to be used with a certain care. I'm not saying anyone here advocating one thing or the other has said anyone can go out and roll their dog, I'm saying that if such thing is to be deffended and argued for it should be worded in a way that makes people understand that IF said things are to be done they MUST be done under professional supervision.

The thing about TV, there has to be a "Wow" factor, otherwise, it wouldn't be on TV. I'm no expert, but in my experience dealing with my leash reactive dog, I have yet to see a "light bulb" moment, it has all been little milestones. I guess if you saw my dog a few months ago and you saw him now you would notice a difference, but the keyword there was "months". I have heard many people tell me that my dog's problem can be solved in a couple of hours, maybe a day if that much. Yet when I ask these people "how?", all I hear are catch phrases and refferences to a tv show. Ironically in asking three professionals, from what I would see as oposing points of view, I get one common denominator "there's no quick and easy REAL solution".

So the two things (one good one bad) that people take from "the Dog Whisperer" are, the good :"your dog's problems do have a solution", the bad: "this solution takes a couple of hours at the most". The people that believe that, and go around giving advice around those huge missconceptions are the ones doing a disservice to dog in general, and giving Millan a bad name.

[GoodBullyLLC]

Originally Posted by eley

GoodBullyLLC, so what you're saying is that Alpha rolls are used as means to end an immediate behaviour, but not as a long term solution?. I have read about a number of trainers that use them sucessfuly, but for what I understand the person rolling the dog has to know EXACTLY what they are doing. It's one of those things that there is way too much that can go wrong and way to little room for error, if I'm understanding correctly.

It isn't that sensitive, but yeah, if you don't know what you are doing and haven't properly assessed the dog it can be dangerous.

I guess we're talking about two different worlds here, dog owners and dog pros. But this is part of the point I've been trying to make all along. Whether you like Cesar Millan or not, you have to agree with one thing, there's a number of ignorant, stupid people that will go and immitate whatever they see on tv, just because it's on tv. And while the fallout and consecuences are not in anyway Millan's fault (blaming him for idiots rolling dogs, would be as fair as blaming Trading Spaces for people messing up their homes), I do believe that not enough emphasis is placed in the fact that Millan is a pro and he SHOULD NOT be immitated by John Q Public.

Yes, you are correct. This is especially true since Millan himself has a disclaimer on his website and on the television program that John Q. Public should hire a professional trainer and not try the techniques on their own.

There is one thing about being a pro, and that is you make whatever it is you are a professional at look easy. So easy that in some instances people can't figure out why they called a pro if they could've done ______ in the first place.

So while I agree that leash corrections, pinch and e-collars and other things do have their place and use in the dog world, I believe not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that these things are TOOLS. So we spend more time de-mystifying that alpha rolls, pinch collars and the like are evil like they have been portrayed to be, that we forget to remind people that while they aren't by any means off limits, they do have to be used with a certain care. I'm not saying anyone here advocating one thing or the other has said anyone can go out and roll their dog, I'm saying that if such thing is to be deffended and argued for it should be worded in a way that makes people understand that IF said things are to be done they MUST be done under professional supervision.

This is great advice. And I for one never advocate that anyone roll their dog over. As I stated, I do it only in the most extreme cases and mostly as a means to end and calm the situation rather than asserting dominance.

The thing about TV, there has to be a "Wow" factor, otherwise, it wouldn't be on TV. I'm no expert, but in my experience dealing with my leash reactive dog, I have yet to see a "light bulb" moment, it has all been little milestones. I guess if you saw my dog a few months ago and you saw him now you would notice a difference, but the keyword there was "months". I have heard many people tell me that my dog's problem can be solved in a couple of hours, maybe a day if that much. Yet when I ask these people "how?", all I hear are catch phrases and refferences to a tv show. Ironically in asking three professionals, from what I would see as oposing points of view, I get one common denominator "there's no quick and easy REAL solution".

Even Millan's techniques don't work in hours. You see a temporary light bulb change but even he will tell you that if the owners don't keep working with the dog and following the right leadership plan, the dog will go back to behaving badly.

I've never heard him try to convince people that the dog is fixed when he leaves.

So the two things (one good one bad) that people take from "the Dog Whisperer" are, the good :"your dog's problems do have a solution", the bad: "this solution takes a couple of hours at the most". The people that believe that, and go around giving advice around those huge missconceptions are the ones doing a disservice to dog in general, and giving Millan a bad name.

People think this because they don't listen to him. They watch what he does but they don't listen to his statements about the dogs progress, probably because they are still mystified. As I said, I've never heard him try to convince people that he "fixed" the dog during his one visit.

[eley]

GoodBullyLLC, I think we see things pretty much from the same perspective.

I do believe that during his wrap-up segment at the end of the show Cesar could say out loud to ask for professional help, maybe that would sink in better in the heads of the culties. Honestly, when was the last time anyone gave any importance to a written disclaimer?. Ironically I think that even that wouldn't stop a number of idiots from going and testing o ntheir dogs whatever they just saw on TV, the sad part is, that it's the ones that didn't really understand the ones that go and immitate, and nothing CM does will stop that.

The thing about even Cesar's work not working in hours, smart people get it, it's once again the idiots that don't, they don't hear the part where he says that the owners have to keep up either. In their mind, it's like magic.

I've heard a number of missconceptions stemming from Cesar's statements, some would make anyone with a dash of intelligence cringe (if you want to hear some of them PM me).

Stupidity and lack of common sense is something that we'll NEVER get rid of.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by eley

GoodBullyLLC, I think we see things pretty much from the same perspective.

I do believe that during his wrap-up segment at the end of the show Cesar could say out loud to ask for professional help, maybe that would sink in better in the heads of the culties. Honestly, when was the last time anyone gave any importance to a written disclaimer?. Ironically I think that even that wouldn't stop a number of idiots from going and testing o ntheir dogs whatever they just saw on TV, the sad part is, that it's the ones that didn't really understand the ones that go and immitate, and nothing CM does will stop that.

The thing about even Cesar's work not working in hours, smart people get it, it's once again the idiots that don't, they don't hear the part where he says that the owners have to keep up either. In their mind, it's like magic.

I've heard a number of missconceptions stemming from Cesar's statements, some would make anyone with a dash of intelligence cringe (if you want to hear some of them PM me).

Stupidity and lack of common sense is something that we'll NEVER get rid of.

If all programs had to be directed at the lowest common denominator IQ, we would all be watching Barney reruns. You can't dumb down good information figuring that some peole would try it despite disclaimers. Dumb people will do dumb things, despite any warning that is given to them. That is how Darwins theory works...

[eley]

Originally Posted by Captbob

If all programs had to be directed at the lowest common denominator IQ, we would all be watching Barney reruns. You can't dumb down good information figuring that some peole would try it despite disclaimers. Dumb people will do dumb things, despite any warning that is given to them. That is how Darwins theory works...

I agree with that, the only thing that gets on my nerves, is that in this particular case, it's dogs who end up paying the price.

I could not care less if someone painted their house lime green with bright orange trim because they saw that on Trading spaces. Or if someone goes and breaks a leg trying to do something they saw on fear factor. But I do have a problem with someone going out and poking a dog in the neck, rolling it or something along those lines because they saw it on the Dog Whisperer.

[Alpha]

No, Captbob, the reason you suspected I wasnt' a "professional" trainer was because I don't agree with a lot of the methods you speak of here.

It's okay to disagree, but let's be honest, that's why your saying the things you are. Everything was okay between us until I disagreed with a few of the comments you made about APBT's and methods on this thread. I don't know if you think your fooling other members, but your definitely not fooling me.

Secondly, and lastly (whewf! LOL) just because a trainer has so many years under their belt DOES NOT, BY ANY MEANS, mean that they know what they're doing.

I recently went a farm looking to buy a foal and found a lady there who had been teaching lessons for over 20 years and almost had a heart attack at what I saw.

Anyone in dogs knows that years doesn't neccessarily mean GOOD experience.

Also, most people in dogs also know that police dogs now, for the most part, are trained using a lot of positive reinforcement.

I go to school with a lady who gives classes and has worked with Fred Hassen, THE e-collar trainer thank you.

It's is EXTREMELY naive to believe that the e-collar is meant for just any dog, now the hardcore collar pushers won't tell you that, but many of the people who use collars for finishing work in competition will.

Of course the people who make money off others using their methods are NOT going to tell you to DON'T use my method! It's ridiculous.

All I'm saying is, in complete sincerity, is it appears from your posts about the e-collar that you've been brainwashed. I have an e-collar, I use it occasionally, and I've read, and listened to seminars from THE BEST in e-collar training but don't EAT UP everything someone tells you with X amount of years experience.

Sure, the ladies dog's at our school work wonderfully, do everything perfectly. Roxy looks better though, anyone who's compared the two will say the same. If you want a robot, use the e-collar as your MAIN training tool, because it's what you'll get. Now I stress main, because this is how many collar pushers use it. The collar for EVERY little correction. Verbal corrections, leash corrections, "guidance" it all.

This is how the collar pushers take away the human emotions involved with verbal and physical corrections, to "detach" themselves from the correction, in the hope of the dog not connecting to the correction to the human.

Sometimes dogs knowing that it was us that gave them the correction is important.

Just because I'm not a collar pusher, doesn't mean that I haven't spoken with, listened to, and read from the best about it. Once again, don't ASSUME that you know anything about what I do and know about dogs.

Good post above eley

[cshellenberger]

Wow, away for a couple of days sick and this is what I come back to!

Good Bully, I have trained using BOTH schools. I learned the Koehler method when I was 15, I'm now 40. I quit useing the old methods after watching them fail too many dogs and started searching for better ways that wouldn't harm or intimidate and would work with shy/fearful dogs as well as confident/dominant dogs.

Originally Posted by luv4gsds

Well I for one watch his shows, but I do not hold him high on the dog trainer pedestal. Some of his methods put me in mind of William Koehler.

Yes, he uses many of Koehlers methods and those of New Skete. I guess that's why I have a problem. I've seen him dominate dogs that have medical conditions and nuerologic disorders that cause the problems he's trying to 'reform' . It's one of the reasons I tell people having problems, especially if they are sudden, to have their dogs checked out for tick disease, Thyroid and nuerological conditions before consulting a behaviorist or qualified trainer.


The fact is, that most problems, other than those caused by medical conditions, are the result of the owners not being consistant or lack of training and/or socialization from a young age. Many people take their dogs to obedience training, but few teach their dogs manners thinking the obedience will be enough. Of course there are always those who teach their dogs nothing and let them run the humans (most of which are the little guys). It takes alot to change the attitudes of these people. I guess if they are watching Cesar and realizing they need to take control of their dogs, he does good. It's a start even if they use methods I don't agree with.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

No, Captbob, the reason you suspected I wasnt' a "professional" trainer was because I don't agree with a lot of the methods you speak of here.

It's okay to disagree, but let's be honest, that's why your saying the things you are. Everything was okay between us until I disagreed with a few of the comments you made about APBT's and methods on this thread. I don't know if you think your fooling other members, but your definitely not fooling me.

Secondly, and lastly (whewf! LOL) just because a trainer has so many years under their belt DOES NOT, BY ANY MEANS, mean that they know what they're doing.

I recently went a farm looking to buy a foal and found a lady there who had been teaching lessons for over 20 years and almost had a heart attack at what I saw.

Anyone in dogs knows that years doesn't neccessarily mean GOOD experience.

Also, most people in dogs also know that police dogs now, for the most part, are trained using a lot of positive reinforcement.

I go to school with a lady who gives classes and has worked with Fred Hassen, THE e-collar trainer thank you.

It's is EXTREMELY naive to believe that the e-collar is meant for just any dog, now the hardcore collar pushers won't tell you that, but many of the people who use collars for finishing work in competition will.

Of course the people who make money off others using their methods are NOT going to tell you to DON'T use my method! It's ridiculous.

All I'm saying is, in complete sincerity, is it appears from your posts about the e-collar that you've been brainwashed. I have an e-collar, I use it occasionally, and I've read, and listened to seminars from THE BEST in e-collar training but don't EAT UP everything someone tells you with X amount of years experience.

Sure, the ladies dog's at our school work wonderfully, do everything perfectly. Roxy looks better though, anyone who's compared the two will say the same. If you want a robot, use the e-collar as your MAIN training tool, because it's what you'll get. Now I stress main, because this is how many collar pushers use it. The collar for EVERY little correction. Verbal corrections, leash corrections, "guidance" it all.

This is how the collar pushers take away the human emotions involved with verbal and physical corrections, to "detach" themselves from the correction, in the hope of the dog not connecting to the correction to the human.

Sometimes dogs knowing that it was us that gave them the correction is important.

Just because I'm not a collar pusher, doesn't mean that I haven't spoken with, listened to, and read from the best about it. Once again, don't ASSUME that you know anything about what I do and know about dogs.

Good post above eley

As I said before, the things that you say fly in the face of much of the information that I have read in books on dog training and talking to dog trainers. I can see that you are locked into what you feel is correct, and no amount of reasoning with you will change that, so I am not even going to try. I do think it would be a good idea, however, to lay off calling people that don't agree with you ignorant, or implying that you are right and they are wrong. To someone that is a pro trainer, you just make yourself look silly in my opinion.

[Alpha]

I am most definitely not LOCKED into what I *THINK* is correct.

I work with my dogs probably more than you do so with your own. (If you haven't noticed I've refrained from being right out rude, but obviously you haven't, or you want to continue being rude yourself)

The methods I have used with my dogs that have worked and haven't worked is what I speak about on this forum. I most definintely don't preach ANYTHING that ANY trainer out there says is right, only what, in my experience WORKS.

IMO, it's pretty ridiculous and silly to preach about methods that you haven't applied yourself, just methods that you've read about, spoken about with someone or seen on TV. Don't get me wrong, there's a tonne of knowledge out there that can be learned by those actions but IMO, true knowledge comes from doing something yourself. Not by hearing or seeing it as a stander-by.

What exactly do I state that "flies in the face of much of the information that you have read in books on dog training and from talking to dog trainers?"

Alpha rolls? That the e-collar isn't for every dog out there? What exactly

[bearlasmom]

Originally Posted by Captbob

To someone that is a pro trainer, you just make yourself look silly in my opinion.

first of all, alpha has never refered to anyone as ignorant, you have though numerous times. Pro trainer, and salesman for a dog training technique or manual are two completely different things. If anyone looks silly, you do, trying to pass yourself off as one.

Lay off on alpha, she actually does know what she is talking about.

Silly, is a person who promotes pinch or prong collars. Youclaim to train problem bully breeds and you use e collars and pinch collars? Like i said before, a dog in your hands is a dog waiting to go off like a case of very old wet TNT or a case of nitro sitting on the very edge of a cliff and a earthquake beginning.

prong collars should be used on the owner of the dog BEFORE it is used on the dog. They are used by those who are training bully breeds to be nasty. Give the true facts. thank you

[cshellenberger]

Very well said!

[bearlasmom]

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

Very well said!

thank you carla

[Alpha]

Nope, bearla, Carla, we're wrong Didn't ya know that the ONLY way to train a dog is to apha roll them, use an e-collar as a if it were the only training tool out there and perhaps finish it all off with some prong collars, obselete methods or neck biting.

I don't know where to start! I mean I already have an e-collar but am I to just shock her all the time? When she does bad things? I don't know! Let's just turn it up and find out!

How about some alpha rolling! Party at my house! He he!

And Carla! Posting all that riff raff about "positve training", pfftt! Get real! Ya gotta get down and dirty and physical if you want to get anywhere!

[GoodBullyLLC]

Originally Posted by bearlasmom

first of all, alpha has never refered to anyone as ignorant, you have though numerous times. Pro trainer, and salesman for a dog training technique or manual are two completely different things. If anyone looks silly, you do, trying to pass yourself off as one.

Lay off on alpha, she actually does know what she is talking about.

Silly, is a person who promotes pinch or prong collars. Youclaim to train problem bully breeds and you use e collars and pinch collars? Like i said before, a dog in your hands is a dog waiting to go off like a case of very old wet TNT or a case of nitro sitting on the very edge of a cliff and a earthquake beginning.

prong collars should be used on the owner of the dog BEFORE it is used on the dog. They are used by those who are training bully breeds to be nasty. Give the true facts. thank you

You are so misinformed it isn't funny.

[bearlasmom]

Originally Posted by Alpha

Nope, bearla, Carla, we're wrong Didn't ya know that the ONLY way to train a dog is to apha roll them, use an e-collar as a if it were the only training tool out there and perhaps finish it all off with some prong collars, obselete methods or neck biting.

I don't know where to start! I mean I already have an e-collar but am I to just shock her all the time? When she does bad things? I don't know! Let's just turn it up and find out!

How about some alpha rolling! Party at my house! He he!

And Carla! Posting all that riff raff about "positve training", pfftt! Get real! Ya gotta get down and dirty and physical if you want to get anywhere!

you bring the e and prong collars, well through bully down and try them on. maybe do some neck biting, alpha rolling and i agree, we have to get down and dirty, lmao

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

You are so misinformed it isn't funny.

the only misinformed one around here bucko is you. i bring people like you into courts to have thown behind bars all the time. in case you havent heard, ANIMAL CRUELTY IS A NO NO.

[luv4gsds]

Well I really do not want to get in-between this so called mouth fight. I just wanted to say that the prong collar and the e-collar have their place in dog training. It is the people that do not know how to use these training tools in the right manner that gives these training tools a bad rap. Yes you can use positive reinforcement to train a dog very well, but it doesn't work for all dogs. Now do not get me wrong I use positive reinforcement in my training. This type of training sets my foundation. I always remember the three A's attention, attitude and accuracy in my training. You have to look at yourself before training your dog. Your understanding, timing, temperament, physical capabilities and the ability to read your dog. You should never give a correction for a mistake that your dog may make while training. A correction should only be used for disobedience. When correcting a mistake and not disobedience this will quickly destroy a dog's confidence. Well I will give it a rest now.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by bearlasmom

first of all, alpha has never refered to anyone as ignorant, you have though numerous times.

Oh really, read the first few lines of one of his posts on this link.......

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-d...html#post49536 (Pit bulls ( Hopefully this doesnt offend anyone ))

Originally Posted by bearlasmom

Pro trainer, and salesman for a dog training technique or manual are two

completely different things. If anyone looks silly, you do, trying to pass yourself off as one.

"Pass my self off as one" .... what......????You will have to explain that statement to me, I can't figure out what you mean...

Originally Posted by bearlasmom

Lay off on alpha, she actually does know what she is talking about.

Prove it.....

[GoodBullyLLC]

Originally Posted by bearlasmom

you bring the e and prong collars, well through bully down and try them on. maybe do some neck biting, alpha rolling and i agree, we have to get down and dirty, lmao


the only misinformed one around here bucko is you. i bring people like you into courts to have thown behind bars all the time. in case you havent heard, ANIMAL CRUELTY IS A NO NO.

Your post lacks credibility, common sense, and logic. You, sir, are wasting everyone's time here.

[Curbside Prophet]

I'm fine with people calling me names, or searching to humilate me. I'm quite confident that I can laugh those people off. Call that what you want, but I've seen and heard it all before. However, as a moderator I feel obligated to discourage name calling and rudness. We have many examples in this thread of people forgetting the objective of a forum...to hopefully teach, to hopefully learn, and to keep an open mind. It's apparent to me that some of you are incapable of focusing on the objective. So before the mods start recommending people to be removed from our forum, this thread ends here, and I ask you all to reevaluate why you're here. If you're not here to educate or learn, I'd like you to leave our forum. There are plenty of other forums where you can pick on people. I know I've been very lenient with the forum rules, but if I don't see examples of tact from this point forward in other threads, I'll kindly remove you from our forum. I'm not trying to impose any "moderator" power, but we've all read the forum rules, right? So let's follow them.

Sorry Grandpaw RonE! We almost made it.