[Curbside Prophet]

Alpha, Captbob, bearlasmom... We're all keeping this in good fun, right? I don't mind people picking on eachother as long as it's not meant to be hurtful.

Six pages to go Grandpaw RonE.

[bearlasmom]

actually not mean to be mean or hurtful here. im hoping that the tongue lashing and bashing will stop., we are supposed to bbe a big happy family here.

[Alpha]

I didn't think my last post was that bad was it Curb?

Some of my other ones have been rude, I'll admit it, but I thought my last one was a little more direct and to the point.

I'm not hurt I've got thick skin

[GoodBullyLLC]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

But dogs are exponentially greater. Wolves were once on the indangered species list, were they not? How close are dogs being placed on the indangered species list? With our current dog over population problem? I'd say dogs are way more successful than wolves by this point alone.

Wow. Are you really using this as your argument?

Wolves were endangered because they were killed by humans, not because they lack some sort of survival quality.

I didn't think we would get this elementary into a discussion. This is like talking to a preschooler.

Thus your road block in understanding my point of view. You blindly accept wolf theories.

I don't blindly accept anything.

Hmmm, I wonder what a coyote is then? Or a jackle? Or a dingo? I could get into evolution, biology, and genetics, but the last time I tried that I got the I don't know nutt'n bout dat, but I still tink you're wrong act. For this I'd recommend you learn this on your own.

And they don't share similar pack qualities?

Study village dogs, they don't all roam solo, nor do they pack. I'd even recommend visiting a third world country and witness the behaviors yourself. Not much pack hunting going on, I'll assure you of that.

So they aren't solo and they aren't in a pack - what are they then, transient beings?

[bearlasmom]

nothing bad meant to you alpha. i actually posted the wrong name sweet cheeks. lmao. we need really thick skin sometimes i think. i was refering to the other nasty one posting and i was actually agreeing with alpha

good bully nice, down, shhhhhhh, be good for 5 minutes okay. this is a family forum.

[GoodBullyLLC]

Originally Posted by opokki

Can you name one Ethologist, Certified Animal Behaviorist, or Veterinary Behaviorist who agrees with alpha rolling a dog?

That depends on the type of alpha roll. As I stated, it is a very mismanaged and misunderstood technique.

Let me ask a couple simple questions...

1. Does alpha rolling put an immediate end to an aggressive action?

I didn't say "does it end aggressive behavior?" - I said "Does it stop an aggressive act?"

2. Does it accomplish its goal in asserting dominance?

Please respond to each question individually, not in one long paragraph.

[Alpha]

Bully...

*sigh* How can I put this without the other band members killing me. LOL

In YOUR life with YOUR dogs, from the sounds of it, you don't really need to alpha roll your dogs right?

I find it pretty hard to believe that your here advocating the use of alpha rolls, when on the other thread you posted a wonderful link to most of the methods I even use personally when dealing with my own dogs.

I guess after re-reading that sheet, I'm a little confused as to how you on one thread, I see a wonderful outlook on dealing with dominance and then on this thread advocating the use of alpha rolling.

Are you speaking more of the bonding excercise, which is where you do have the dog in a submissive position but your not forcefully holding them there?

Just trying to wrap my brain around is all

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

Wow. Are you really using this as your argument?

I used it as one point in an argument, however, I don't believe you actually want to understand. So I left it there.

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

Wolves were endangered because they were killed by humans, not because they lack some sort of survival quality.

Any why weren't dogs killed off? Maybe because they have a behavior to us humans that wolves don't have? Hmmmm?

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

I didn't think we would get this elementary into a discussion. This is like talking to a preschooler.

Jinx!

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

I don't blindly accept anything.

Have you finished reading the thread Carla left? No, you gave up when you failed to comprehend.

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

And they don't share similar pack qualities?

There are similar qualities, but they are superficial.

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

So they aren't solo and they aren't in a pack - what are they then, transient beings?

No, they'll stick around together or apart for as long as resources are available. Only once resources diminish do they move on apart or together.

[GoodBullyLLC]

Originally Posted by Alpha

Bully...

*sigh* How can I put this without the other band members killing me. LOL

In YOUR life with YOUR dogs, from the sounds of it, you don't really need to alpha roll your dogs right?

I find it pretty hard to believe that your here advocating the use of alpha rolls, when on the other thread you posted a wonderful link to most of the methods I even use personally when dealing with my own dogs.

I guess after re-reading that sheet, I'm a little confused as to how you on one thread, I see a wonderful outlook on dealing with dominance and then on this thread advocating the use of alpha rolling.

Are you speaking more of the bonding excercise, which is where you do have the dog in a submissive position but your not forcefully holding them there?

Just trying to wrap my brain around is all

The dominance program I share with people is written for the general public; people who don't know how to deal with or correct aggressive behavior.

I have no need to alpha roll my dogs, no.

I also never suggest that people alpha roll their dog.

I have, however, alpha rolled dogs and still will. I rehabilitate problem dogs and the technique works when done properly and with absolute calmness. There is nothing aggressive about it (I understand that this is not the case when most people think of alpha rolling because the common misconception is that the technique should be used aggressively, forcefully, and should inject fear and pain into the dog - which is not the correct way to perform the action).

The other part to understand is when to do it. As I have stated, I work with many problem dogs, some with fear aggression, some with dominance aggression, that I never alpha roll. The only time I do it is when I need to put an end to an aggressive action toward me, another human, or another dog (not a growl or bark but when the dog actually makes contact or comes very close). It is a way to solve the particular situation and the fact that it asserts dominance is just a plus.

I want to throw aside wolf theory, wild dog theory, and all that for a minute and get an answer to the question - can it work?

If the answer is yes--I have used it successfully so in my mind the correct answer is yes--then what are good reasons for not doing it?

[bearlasmom]

alpha dont both with this guy. you are wasting your breath and your good advice.

[Alpha]

Okay, now I'm sorry, but I was trying to somewhat offer a hand in peace,
but did the beginning part of your post just state that I don't know how to deal with aggressive animals because I use those methods now?

Because I don't alpha roll instead, but rather I implement resource control and a slightly different but comparable to NILIF technique with my bitch?

Advice taken bearlas, what's important is the methods I use for my dog don't scar them emotionally/mentally and work fantastically. That's all that matters For those that sincerely want advice, I'll offer what I know and what has worked for me.

[GoodBullyLLC]

That was not my implication.

I was simply stating why the dominance program I tell my clients to follow includes avoidance as step 1.

I didn't say you didn't know how to handle aggression, I was simply stating that the general public does not.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by GoodBullyLLC

If the answer is yes--I have used it successfully so in my mind the correct answer is yes--then what are good reasons for not doing it?

When no other preventions are in place, and as a last resort, the risk in your example is worth it. However, reasons not to do it are many. The originators saw it right many years later...people are ignorant and misuse the technique. That's one good reason. If you stay around long enough someone eventually will stroll into our forum and recommend that someone "show their dominance, and roll the dog on it's side" for a common problem like jumping. They see Cesar do it once, and suddenly it's extrapolated that every dog problem is a dominance issue, because that's the lesson learned by the ignorant when watching The Dog Whisperer. You may use it only for safety reasons, but Jo Blo who just watched his first episode of The Dog Whisperer is suddenly an expert. It all points to what eley has been suggesting all along. However, if they had an understanding of the applicabilty of wolf theories, they may not be so quick to accept the wizardry of Cesar.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

When no other preventions are in place, and as a last resort, the risk in your example is worth it. However, reasons not to do it are many. The originators saw it right many years later...people are ignorant and misuse the technique. That's one good reason. If you stay around long enough someone eventually will stroll into our forum and recommend that someone "show their dominance, and roll the dog on it's side" for a common problem like jumping. They see Cesar do it once, and suddenly it's extrapolated that every dog problem is a dominance issue, because that's the lesson learned by the ignorant when watching The Dog Whisperer. You may use it only for safety reasons, but Jo Blo who just watched his first episode of The Dog Whisperer is suddenly an expert. It all points to what eley has been suggesting all along. However, if they had an understanding of the applicabilty of wolf theories, they may not be so quick to accept the wizardry of Cesar.

And THIS is why we do not suggest alpha rolling on this forum. Many of the members of this forum are beginner dog owners, and any beginner dog owner performing such an action could cause themselves or their dogs to be seriously hurt, traumatized, etc.

I am ALL for trying the least aversive methods FIRST, and ESPECIALLY for a first time dog owner.

[GoodBullyLLC]

Curb and Cheetah - I'm perfectly fine with that and I agree with you 100%.

[Alpha]

I'm the same way Cheetah.

I start out with new behaviours with as little correction as possible, this includes verbal. I *try* to SHAPE all behaviours first, shaping behaviours involves ONLY positive reinforcement.

Than, slowly, gradually after exhausting each method, step up my corrections accordingly.

Curb, good post.

[RonE]

Originally Posted by RonE

don't be surprised if this thread turns into 19 pages of back-and-forth

It would be okay to prove me wrong for once.

I wonder if the forum administrator could set a limit on the number of passages that can be quoted in a single response.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

My take on the e-collar?

You know it? Really? Please inform me, I'd love to hear what *I* have to say about the e-collar I have sitting on my counter charging right now

ETA-

I've never stated I know everything, no one ever trully does about dog training, but there definitely are some methods that even *I* know are seriously outdated.

What worries me about your use of the e-collar is the mentality that's usually coupled with "alpha rolls" is not desirable for an aversive like an e-collar. It'll probably result with a dog being burned and not being properly introduced to the correction.

All I can say is, I would rather take someone's word who's actually DONE work with their dogs than someone who's just regurgitating information from a television show or spoke a few times with an obselete method trainer.

Learning period is about trial and error. How are you supposed to learn if you've never done anything?

Had to add:
If I had to choose between a full time trainer that alpha rolled, and a non-cert'd OB HIT competitor, I'd choose the latter most definitely

First of all, I suspected that you were not a professional trainer because you disagree with some of the things that long time trainers I have talked to believe in. These are trainers that have trained dogs for the government, as well as private owners. I can also tell that your understanding of the way an E-collar works when it is properly used, doesn't seem to jibe with what I have seen with 2 different instructors using it. It is too long to go into here, so I will just say that, 3 different dogs I have personally seen being trained with an E-collar progressed more rapidly in the training than any other method I have ever seen, and that is why these instructors like to use the E-collar. They call it an electronic clicker... Your statement about "E-collar mentality coupled with alpha rolls" has me totally confused, since I have no idea what you are talking about.

I am not trying to be an expert in training since I am basically interested in the topic for use with my own dog and the dogs I help at the shelter where I volunteer. It does bother me, however, when I see something demonstrated by an expert in it's use several times( like an E Collar) , and then I read on a forum something that is 180 degrees out of phase with what I actually witnessed, and it is passed off as fact. Same goes for the "abusive" training that Cesar does with the dogs he helps. I am not seeing that either, so either my DVR is not recording these episodes for some reason, or maybe we are living in the Twilight Zone and watching totally different versions of the same TV show...

[crazydog06]

100% behind Cesar and his techniques! Works on my dog!

But others have their opinion and I respect that. So I won't start any cyber fights.

[luv4gsds]

Well I for one watch his shows, but I do not hold him high on the dog trainer pedestal. Some of his methods put me in mind of William Koehler.